Poor Sleep

[Scoot2300]

Does anyone else have bouts of insomnia where they just cannot fall asleep due to higher estrogen? I am a high responder to exogenous testosterone as I am at 90mg per week split into 3 injections sub q. My total T is about 1000 (I am 48 and my top end range is 916 so I am just above the high normal), my free T is 21.1 (high normal is 21.5) and my E2 is 58 (high normal is 42.6). I was going with just the T and HCG and not taking any of the Anastrozole but I decided to take .25 mg this morning to see how that will effect me.

Any thoughts? Anyone else ever go through this?

 

[S1W]

Sleep issues are not uncommon among guys on TRT, particularly at higher TT/FT levels, and I’m not sure that it’s accurate to blame estradiol in isolation.

More likely due to disruption of other downstream hormones, neurotransmitters, etc.

 

[DixieWrecked]

I added progesterone cream to my protocol and it definitely helps sleep. My guess is that TRT creates an imbalance of Estrogen to Progesterone. TRT will suppress your entire hormonal pathway to some degree except the hormones downstream of testosterone, which includes estrogen.

 

[Scoot2300]

I added progesterone cream to my protocol and it definitely helps sleep. My guess is that TRT creates an imbalance of Estrogen to Progesterone. TRT will suppress your entire hormonal pathway to some degree except the hormones downstream of testosterone, which includes estrogen.

Where did you get the cream? Is it only available via prescription?

 

[Willyt]

Are those your trough numbers? If so, maybe try reducing dose to 80mg per week and see if that helps the sleep You’d still probably be in upper range certainly at peak time

 

[Scoot2300]

Are those your trough numbers? If so, maybe try reducing dose to 80mg per week and see if that helps the sleep You’d still probably be in upper range certainly at peak time

Yes. I don't disagree with your assessment as I have considered that myself. I think I will adjust the dose before adding anything else to protocol.

 

[madman]

Does anyone else have bouts of insomnia where they just cannot fall asleep due to higher estrogen? I am a high responder to exogenous testosterone as I am at 90mg per week split into 3 injections sub q. My total T is about 1000 (I am 48 and my top end range is 916 so I am just above the high normal), my free T is 21.1 (high normal is 21.5) and my E2 is 58 (high normal is 42.6). I was going with just the T and HCG and not taking any of the Anastrozole but I decided to take .25 mg this morning to see how that will effect me.

Any thoughts? Anyone else ever go through this?

Your protocol is 90 mg T split 3X weekly.

Was blood work done at the trough?

Keep in mind that although your TT 1000 ng/dL is just over the top-end if this is at true trough then your peak TT, FT, and estradiol will be higher.

If you are injecting 90 mg T split 3x weekly (M/W/F) then blood work should be done at true trough which would be Monday morning before your injection.

Even then although TT is important to know FT is what truly matters as it is the active unbound fraction of testosterone responsible for the positive effects.

You left out another important blood marker SHBG.

Critical to know as SHBG will have a significant impact on TT/FT let alone can dictate what injection frequency may suit you best.

When it comes to testing FT many doctors let alone men on trt are using/relying upon inaccurate assays.

Need to be more concerned with where your trough FT truly sits and unfortunately, you had it tested using the piss poor direct immunoassay which is known to be inaccurate.

Judging by the info you posted.....My total T is about 1000 (I am 48 and my top end range is 916 so I am just above the high normal), my free T is 21.1 (high normal is 21.5)

I would say you had your FT tested at Labcorp using the piss poor direct immunoassay
(age 40-49 reference range 6.8 -21.5 pg/mL).

144980: Testosterone, Free, Direct | Labcorp

Labcorp test details for Testosterone, Free, Direct

www.labcorp.com

I would not use/rely upon the direct immunoassay for testing FT let alone the older outdated cFTV especially in cases of altered SHBG.

The only way to know where your FT truly sits is to have it tested using the most accurate assays such as the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration (next best).

Have no clue where your SHBG sits but you can be rest assured that with a trough TT 1000 ng/dL that your FT will be high even if you have highish/high SHBG.

Excess FT levels can result in acne/oily skin (genetically prone), accelerated balding (genetically prone), drive down HDL, increased RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit (common), overstimulation of the CNS (common), bloating/water retention due to androgens effects on the retention of electrolytes (common).

Let alone many end up trying to manage estradiol with the use of an aromatase inhibitor.

Testosterone has a tonic effect on the CNS and can easily make one feel amped up especially when FT levels are too high let alone cause sleep issues in some.

I would retest FT using an accurate assay (ED or UF) before making any changes to your protocol.

 

[Scoot2300]

I appreciate you replying. Yes, it was taken Monday morning before injection so that was trough. Not all of us have access to anything other than Labcorp which you correctly identified as the testing company. I definitely do not want to take AI long term and since the SHGB was not on my lab report, lowering to 80 mg per week would I guess be the next best thing?

 

[madman]

I appreciate you replying. Yes, it was taken Monday morning before injection so that was trough. Not all of us have access to anything other than Labcorp which you correctly identified as the testing company. I definitely do not want to take AI long term and since the SHGB was not on my lab report, lowering to 80 mg per week would I guess be the next best thing?

Lowering your dose slightly would be a sensible move but I would rather know where my trough FT level truly sits before making such a move.

It may very well be much higher than you think and comes down to where your SHBG sits.

If such is the case then you would have room to bring down your FT level some.

You most likely have room to lower your dose slightly and bring down your FT level which would make sense before messing with an AI.

Labcorp also offers the most accurate assays for testing FT.

Many prefer using test #2 Equilibrium Ultrafiltration (reference range 5.00-21.00 ng/dL)

1. 500726: Testosterone, Free, Mass Spectrometry/Equilibrium Dialysis (Endocrine Sciences) | Labcorp

2. 070038: Testosterone, Free, Equilibrium Ultrafiltration With Total Testosterone, LC/MS-MS | Labcorp

 

[Scoot2300]

Thank you again. Since I inject 3 X per week, I can lower my weekly dose to 80mg starting this week and monitor how I am feeling for 6 weeks. Honestly, everything has been relatively great at 90 mg with the exception of the occasional bouts of insomnia but I do agree that I probably have some wiggle room in my dose and will come down.

 

[Novaman]

I developed sleep issues about 6 months in on TRT. battled with it for nearly 5 years, trying all sorts of things and finally gave up. My issue was that I would wake up at night and not be able to fall back asleep.

I quit cold turkey nearly 2 years ago and my sleep quickly returned to normal.

 

[Scoot2300]

Thanks Novaman. I have needed sleep aides for years. When I started TRT they were exacerbated and I had multiple bouts of insomnia a few times a week. Until I had blood work done and dropped my dose down (super responder) I wasn't able to start getting to sleep. I am now dropping again to 80 mg per week which should put me just at the high end of normal and I will run that for 6 weeks and see how I feel. Right now, that is the only thing I am dealing with. The rest has been great.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

A bunch of discussions in the past:

insomnia

www.excelmale.com

 

[MNguy]

@Scoot2300 how did it go with the AI? Did help at all?

 

[GreenMachineX]

Bump for this discussion. I'm starting to suspect my free e2 might be the problem of my insomnia. I always slept great when I crashed my e2 and this is different.

 

[lukas_az]

it could be not your TRT. there is a about a million things which can cause insomnia. there is so many natural supplements which could help. try some Phosphatidylserine. maybe some naturals like passion flower/lemon balm/valerian.

 

[Systemlord]

I was recently diagnosed with vitamin D deficiency and sleep had been suffering, now that I'm supplementing vitamin D my sleep is already improving.

I fall asleep faster and wake feeling more rested.

My erections has been waning and now are returning to how it was months ago when they were harder and fully flaccid.

 

[Gman86]

I was recently diagnosed with vitamin D deficiency and sleep had been suffering, now that I'm supplementing vitamin D my sleep is already improving.

I fall asleep faster and wake feeling more rested.

My erections has been waning and now are returning to how it was months ago when they were harder and fully flaccid.

How many iu’s of vit D u taking per day?

 

[Systemlord]

How many iu’s of vit D u taking per day?

I tried taking 2000iu D3 daily until I got the prescription for 50,000 D2 and found even 3000iu D3 wasn't enough as the symptoms would return at night time.

The worse symptoms are the dry red itchy skin, very painful! The IBS symptoms, fatigue and glucose levels spiraling out of control which vitamin D supplements have allowed me to turn things around rather quickly.

My energy levels after two days of supplementation of vitamin D is going back up already and erections are coming back stronger every day.

I went to bed early last night and woke up at 3:30 a.m fully rested (after taking 4000iu D3) and wanting to get up after only 5 hours of sleep. In the past when I had no health problems I only needed 6 hours of sleep and would wake at 6:20 a.m right as the sun started peeking out.

I have a lot of natural energy.

 

[Beken]

I developed sleep issues about 6 months in on TRT. battled with it for nearly 5 years, trying all sorts of things and finally gave up. My issue was that I would wake up at night and not be able to fall back asleep.

I quit cold turkey nearly 2 years ago and my sleep quickly returned to normal.

I developed sleep issues about 6 months in on TRT. battled with it for nearly 5 years, trying all sorts of things and finally gave up. My issue was that I would wake up at night and not be able to fall back asleep.

I quit cold turkey nearly 2 years ago and my sleep quickly returned to normal.

How long did it take for your sleep to return? Days... weeks?