Oxandrolone and Joints

[Forty2]

Not sure what you mean. I purposely ignore anyone? Can you give me an example? I am a busy man but I try to make time as long as the person is polite and not trying to eat up my time.

Also, unless you add @Nelson Vergel , I will never get an email alert to let me know someone is asking me a question.

Sorry Nelson, I did not put @Nelson Vergel on 2 of my posts. I only put it for one of them.
The first question was asking you if there is any evidence that oxandrolone strengthens tendons or other connective tissue and the second question was asking you if you had tried UC-II collagen and if so, did you find it more efficacious than hydrolyzed collagen, glucosamine & chondroitin?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Sorry Nelson, I did not put @Nelson Vergel on 2 of my posts. I only put it for one of them.
The first question was asking you if there is any evidence that oxandrolone strengthens tendons or other connective tissue and the second question was asking you if you had tried UC-II collagen and if so, did you find it more efficacious than hydrolyzed collagen, glucosamine & chondroitin?

In my opinion, oxandrolone weakens tendons if used long term. It shuts down estradiol dramatically since it is a DHT analog. I have not tried UC-II collagen. I have tried regular collagen for 4 months with no real benefit. I have taken glucosamine and chondroitin not not for enough time to say they work. My joints ache a lot as I get older and also since my CPK skyrockets with exercise and some meds I take. Let's take this discussion to the oxandrolone section (anabolics).

 

[sammmy]

Nelson, integrase inhibitors are known to increase CPK leading to muscle and joint pains. Changing to a different class may resolve that.

I've found out that I can suppress muscle pains (caused by meds not by workout) by taking 5-10 grams of L-Glutamine in a cup of water. It supposedly feeds the immune system with energy and in my case quite obviously suppresses inflammatory reactions by the immune system, probably because it is a precursor to Glutathione - one of the main body anti-oxidants/ anti-inflammatory.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Going to try that Glutamine dose. I can't switch away from integrase. I am multi-drug resistant and on my last combo. I wrote about this in 2011: Risk of elevated CPK

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Sorry Nelson, I did not put @Nelson Vergel on 2 of my posts. I only put it for one of them.
The first question was asking you if there is any evidence that oxandrolone strengthens tendons or other connective tissue and the second question was asking you if you had tried UC-II collagen and if so, did you find it more efficacious than hydrolyzed collagen, glucosamine & chondroitin?

Oxandrolone as part of TRT for joint pain

I had elbow surgery 7 years ago to remove bone spurs and now have constant pain due to not having any cartilage left. I’m looking into adding Deca in my TRT to help with the joint pain, but am worried about the Deca raising my hct as it’s already high( I do give blood every 60 days to keep it...

www.excelmale.com

I guess this study will answer this question soon (Completion date Dec 2020):

ClinicalTrials.gov

clinicaltrials.gov

 

[Forty2]

Oxandrolone as part of TRT for joint pain

I had elbow surgery 7 years ago to remove bone spurs and now have constant pain due to not having any cartilage left. I’m looking into adding Deca in my TRT to help with the joint pain, but am worried about the Deca raising my hct as it’s already high( I do give blood every 60 days to keep it...

www.excelmale.com

I guess this study will answer this question soon (Completion date Dec 2020):

ClinicalTrials.gov

clinicaltrials.gov

Thanks, Nelson. For how many weeks did your estrogen stay low after you stopped taking oxandrolone?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Thanks, Nelson. For how many weeks did your estrogen stay low after you stopped taking oxandrolone?

For 4 months it stayed at undetectable. I think someone else posted a very good post on this. I can’t find it.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Look at post #24

Oxandrolone (Anavar) Medical Uses- Presentation Attached

It's also important to add that all anabolics (with or without TRT) increase hematocrit.

www.excelmale.com

 

[Forty2]

For 4 months it stayed at undetectable. I think someone else posted a very good post on this. I can’t find it.

Thanks, Nelson. This has turned me right off oxandrolone! Out of interest, for how many weeks did you take it before it crushed your estradiol?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

It happens quickly. Within the first two weeks.

 

[Gman86]

Thanks, Nelson. This has turned me right off oxandrolone! Out of interest, for how many weeks did you take it before it crushed your estradiol?

What dose of oxandrolone were u taking?

The guy in the post Nelson linked had his E2 lower an average of about 9 points for every 5mg of oxandrolone he took. Oxandrolone appears to inhibit E2 much stronger than I had thought previously

 

[Nelson Vergel]

The minimum dose for efficacy in males is 20 mg per day. That is the dose I used to use.

HDL went down to 27 and E2 to zero. HDL recovered after stopping for a month but E2 stayed suppressed for at least 4 months.

Oxandrolone used with TRT is not a bad option at all. I am just explaining that it may have some reversible issues. Bodybuilders have used this oral for decades. It has also been used in burned and HIV patients. It’s less masculinizing than other agents, so it can be used in women at a dose of 5 to 10 mg per day.

 

[Forty2]

The minimum dose for efficacy in males is 20 mg per day. That is the dose I used to use.

HDL went down to 27 and E2 to zero. HDL recovered after stopping for a month but E2 stayed suppressed for at least 4 months.

Oxandrolone used with TRT is not a bad option at all. I am just explaining that it may have some reversible issues. Bodybuilders have used this oral for decades. It has also been used in burned and HIV patients. It’s less masculinizing than other agents, so it can be used in women at a dose of 5 to 10 mg per day.

Nelson, for how many weeks did you take oxandrolone, and did you notice a significant increase in muscle strength? Many people say that oxandrolone is quite amazing for increasing muscle strength, not necessarily muscle size. Was this your experience too?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Oxandrolone is no better than nandrolone for muscle and strength gains. But it does tend to give you a more hardened “drier” pump. It does not present as much water retention as nandrolone. We have little to no comparison data but a small pilot showed better fat burning with oxandrolone.

I can’t take it for too long since I get aches. I have never had a gym related tendon tear and not planning to have one at 61.

 

[Sly]

I tried Oxandrolone at both 15 and 30mg for 12 weeks and it did nothing for my joints. I gained a little strength and that was about it. No affect on lipids or estrogen for me. I’m going back to using nandrolone for my joints as that is the only thing that I’ve taken that had a noticeable improvement in my joint pain.

 

[madman]

Sorry Nelson, I did not put @Nelson Vergel on 2 of my posts. I only put it for one of them.
The first question was asking you if there is any evidence that oxandrolone strengthens tendons or other connective tissue and the second question was asking you if you had tried UC-II collagen and if so, did you find it more efficacious than hydrolyzed collagen, glucosamine & chondroitin?

When it comes to tendon health I would be more concerned with your e2.

Sex Hormones and Tendon

Sex Hormones and Tendon. Hansen M, et al. Adv Exp Med Biol. 2016. Authors Hansen M1, Kjaer M2,3. Author information 1Department for Public Health, Section for Sport Science, Aarhus University, Dalgas Avenue 4, 8000, Aarhus, Denmark. 2Institute of Sports Medicine, Department of Orthopedic...

www.excelmale.com

Effect of Estrogen on Musculoskeletal Performance and Injury Risk

Estrogen has a dramatic effect on musculoskeletal function. Beyond the known relationship between estrogen and bone, it directly affects the structure and function of other musculoskeletal tissues such as muscle, tendon, and ligament. In these other musculoskeletal tissues, estrogen improves...

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The effect of estrogen on tendon and ligament metabolism and function

Another possible positive benefit for e2? The effect of estrogen on tendon and ligament metabolism and function - ScienceDirect Abstract Tendons and ligaments are crucial structures inside the musculoskeletal system. Still many issues in the treatment of tendon diseases and injuries have...

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Anabolic steroids and tendons: A review of their mechanical, structural, and biologic effects (2018)

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jor.24116

Discussion

Although rigorous studies linking AAS use to tendon rupture are still needed, the notion that supraphysiologic doses of AAS predispose tendon to rupture by reducing elasticity is widely reported in the literature. Two alternatives (though not mutually exclusive) hypotheses are often invoked to explain AAS‐associated tendon rupture.34, 90, 102, 103 The first hypothesis posits that AAS has a little‐to‐no deleterious effect on tendons themselves. Instead, muscular hypertrophy, without a corresponding strengthening of the associated tendons, explains tendon‐associated rupture. The second hypothesis is that, at high doses, particularly in conjunction with physical exertion, AAS damage the structure of the tendons and makes them more vulnerable to rupture, even in the absence of excessive stress. This review demonstrates that neither hypothesis can be confirmed or denied based on the currently available evidence. Moreover, it is unclear how factors like stacking, dosing, and exercise influence tendon stiffness.




Conclusion

Despite roughly 30 years of research, AAS‐associated tendon pathology/injury is still poorly understood. While several studies have linked increased tendon stiffness to AAS use, the data are far from conclusive and a distinction should be made between loss of elasticity and actual tendon rupture. Moreover, no consistent AAS‐induced ultrastructural or biochemical alterations have been found to account for the changes in biomechanical properties, and the limited, often contradictory results preclude firm conclusions. Current research is taking a second look at AAS as potential therapeutic agents for patients with a severe tendon injury. Despite being reasonably supported by reports indicating that AAS may counteract the irreparable structural/functional changes that occur in the musculotendinous unit following rotator cuff tears, no studies reporting on the structural, biological, or mechanical effects of AAS on tendon have investigated their use as potential therapeutic agents. Rather than providing strong evidence for or against the use of AAS, this review highlights the need for additional studies. Potential areas for future research include studies aimed at understanding dose‐ and drug‐dependent responses. There is also reasonable evidence to support further studies investigating the use of AAS following rotator cuff injury, although no studies to date have explicitly shown that AAS has beneficial effects on the structural, biological, or mechanical properties of tendon. Other potential areas for future research include studies aimed at better understanding the effects of stacking and ultra‐high treatment regimens, which are often used by recreational abusers.

 

[madman]

*Despite roughly 30 years of research, AAS‐associated tendon pathology/injury is still poorly understood.

 

[Gman86]

I tried Oxandrolone at both 15 and 30mg for 12 weeks and it did nothing for my joints. I gained a little strength and that was about it. No affect on lipids or estrogen for me. I’m going back to using nandrolone for my joints as that is the only thing that I’ve taken that had a noticeable improvement in my joint pain.

Wow, no effect on lipids or E2 even on 30mg per day? Where did u get the Oxandrolone from?

 

[Sly]

Got it from Empower.

 

[Gman86]

Got it from Empower.

Wow, that’s crazy that it had no effect on ur HDL at even 30mg/ day, but obv that’s a great thing. Thanks for sharing ur experience.