Not tolerating Test Prop?

[FLguy123]

I’ve been on Prop ED IM at 13-15mg / day for about 3-4 weeks, administered at night around 9pm give or take. Got labs pulled Tuesday and no results yet but I’ve been feeling pretty terrible thus far. I’m also on 350iu hcg injected Monday’s and Thursday’s

zero libido
Light headed on and off
Most mornings wake up with a migraine and unbelievably stiff neck
Reduced and weird appetite. Full very easy and often somewhat queasy feeling
It almost feels like I’m hungover on and off throughout the day.

Just to try, I skipped my injection Wednesday Thursday and Friday this week and began feeling better. No headaches Friday or Saturday morning. Thinking I may be dosing too much I did about 8mg this morning and have felt a return of many symptoms as the day went on. I will update labs as soon as I get them but has anyone else experienced this or have any idea what may be going on?

I am trying prop as I have low shbg typically in the 10-14 range and have struggled with many protocols the last year. The first was substantial hair shedding on cyp, tried reducing dosage but continued and it’s been a trial and error game since then with a host of different sides but never finding the balance of libido, hair shedding, energy, etc.

 

[Cataceous]

I found that daily propionate was giving me more variation in testosterone than I expected or wanted. What I've done in response is effectively switch to half propionate and half enanthate, which I estimate should make the hormonal swings more physiological. I did not experience side effects like yours, so I don't know if you're having excessive variations that are contributing to your difficulties. Larger doses do extend the effective half-life, muting the variations. At a dose of 9 mg per day I estimated my peak serum testosterone to be around 1,300 ng/dL (trough at 450). If you respond similarly then your peak would be much higher. But I am more responsive than average.

My current thinking is that relatively frequent injections of a long-lived ester like cypionate might be best for those with low SHBG. Having flat hormone levels is the way to minimize peak estradiol. Elevated free estradiol may be responsible for some of the woes of low-SHBG guys.

 

[camygod]

I found that daily propionate was giving me more variation in testosterone than I expected or wanted. What I've done in response is effectively switch to half propionate and half enanthate, which I estimate should make the hormonal swings more physiological. I did not experience side effects like yours, so I don't know if you're having excessive variations that are contributing to your difficulties. Larger doses do extend the effective half-life, muting the variations. At a dose of 9 mg per day I estimated my peak serum testosterone to be around 1,300 ng/dL (trough at 450). If you respond similarly then your peak would be much higher. But I am more responsive than average.

My current thinking is that relatively frequent injections of a long-lived ester like cypionate might be best for those with low SHBG. Having flat hormone levels is the way to minimize peak estradiol. Elevated free estradiol may be responsible for some of the woes of low-SHBG guys.

have you seen the half life of daily test phenylpropinoate ?

 

[Cataceous]

have you seen the half life of daily test phenylpropinoate ?

I haven't seen anything definitive, but the creators of steroidcalc.com give the best numbers for the other esters, and they have the half-life of T phenypropionate as 1.5 days. Daily injections of this might allow better emulation of diurnal testosterone variations when propionate proves to be too fast acting. But getting access to it legitimately might not be so easy.

 

[camygod]

I haven't seen anything definitive, but the creators of steroidcalc.com give the best numbers for the other esters, and they have the half-life of T phenypropionate as 1.5 days. Daily injections of this might allow better emulation of diurnal testosterone variations when propionate proves to be too fast acting. But getting access to it legitimately might not be so easy.

yes thats what i thought
what confuses me with that website is with test supension the values seem very high when you enter even 5mg a day on steroid cal the number per day is higher than 5mg

 

[Cataceous]

yes thats what i thought
what confuses me with that website is with test supension the values seem very high when you enter even 5mg a day on steroid cal the number per day is higher than 5mg

Looking at 5 mg injected once per day, it's just saying that the rate of release is higher than 5 mg/day for half the day, and lower for the other half of the day, but the average is still 5 mg/day, the amount injected. Physically, this is reflecting the rise to high levels of serum testosterone and corresponding faster metabolism, followed by the drop to lower levels before the next injection.

 

[trt reznor]

I’ve been on Prop ED IM at 13-15mg / day for about 3-4 weeks, administered at night around 9pm give or take. Got labs pulled Tuesday and no results yet but I’ve been feeling pretty terrible thus far. I’m also on 350iu hcg injected Monday’s and Thursday’s

zero libido
Light headed on and off
Most mornings wake up with a migraine and unbelievably stiff neck
Reduced and weird appetite. Full very easy and often somewhat queasy feeling
It almost feels like I’m hungover on and off throughout the day.

Just to try, I skipped my injection Wednesday Thursday and Friday this week and began feeling better. No headaches Friday or Saturday morning. Thinking I may be dosing too much I did about 8mg this morning and have felt a return of many symptoms as the day went on. I will update labs as soon as I get them but has anyone else experienced this or have any idea what may be going on?

I am trying prop as I have low shbg typically in the 10-14 range and have struggled with many protocols the last year. The first was substantial hair shedding on cyp, tried reducing dosage but continued and it’s been a trial and error game since then with a host of different sides but never finding the balance of libido, hair shedding, energy, etc.

Almost sounds like low E2 symptoms to me. Low E2 gives me a headache right behind the eyes. Very flaccid penis that not even cialis can fix. But sore knees and soreness in my knuckles is the dead giveaway. Also dry mouth. I find small daily doses of T would drive my E2 too low. Daily shots also lowered my SHBG from 28 to 14. Ymmv.

 

[madman]

have you seen the half life of daily test phenylpropinoate ?

Friend of mine used this back in the late 90's when it was available.

Testolent was manufactured in Romania by Sicomed.


William Llewellyn's - ANABOLICS


Testolent (testosterone phenylpropionate)

Description: Testolent is an injectable testosterone preparation containing the fast-acting phenylpropionate ester of testosterone. Testosterone phenylpropionate is one of the constituents in Sustanon®, although this profile concerns its use as a stand-alone ingredient. The activity of Testolent is ultimately very similar to testosterone propionate, supplying the same hormone over at best a slightly longer duration of release. While propionate is injected every second or third day, phenylpropionate might be stretched out to every fourth day. Testolent might be more comfortable to use, as testosterone propionate is notoriously very painful at the site of injection, but otherwise there is really no strong advantage to this preparation in comparison.

 

[R2D2]

I experienced those symptoms when the dose was too high. In turn, I reduced the dose to 10-11mg per day and symptoms are much more manageable (but not optimal) - I inject around 12am each day and experience E elevating from about 5pm the next day. An AI certainly helps, but I then experience other side effects from that. My SHBG is 22ish approx.

I have not been using HCG much as I find this makes E2 worse. I have been trying to get to the bottom of the T protocol before including HCG.

The downside of a lower dose is that the trough values are quite low while the peak values are quite high, converting to high E2 in the evening.

I too have been struggling with the right protocol and think that gels may be the way forward as at least I 'felt okay'; however didn't look particularly great (acne etc.).

 

[R2D2]

I found that daily propionate was giving me more variation in testosterone than I expected or wanted. What I've done in response is effectively switch to half propionate and half enanthate, which I estimate should make the hormonal swings more physiological.

I suspect that I am experiencing similar (more variation than expected/wanted). Can you share any specifics with this protocol?

 

[Cataceous]

I suspect that I am experiencing similar (more variation than expected/wanted). Can you share any specifics with this protocol?

I've always injected every other day or daily. I found that EOD injections of cypionate or enanthate provide very constant serum testosterone, and further that Tru-T calculated free testosterone is directly proportional to the testosterone dose. This information allows me to estimate peak and average testosterone from trough values. After seeing the large serum variations from 9 mg daily propionate I decided I would aim for a more natural 600-1,000 ng/dL daily swing. I estimated that this would be achieved with 4 mg daily propionate and an average of 4.5 mg daily enanthate (actually 9 mg EOD). I've been on this revised protocol for three weeks and I am finding it to be better. Unfortunately the change wasn't made entirely is isolation, so cause and effect are less certain. It's promising that the positive results are happening later on; a protocol change itself frequently triggers good results that fade in a couple weeks.

The protocol is unquestionably a hassle: I put 4 mg propionate and 9 mg enanthate in the same syringe one day, and the next day I put 4 mg propionate and 250 IU hCG in the syringe. Then repeat. This level of fussiness is not sustainable without continued good results.

A small simplification would be to replace the testosterone enanthate with weekly testosterone undecanoate. This provides the constant serum testosterone level of 400 ng/dL, to which the daily propionate then adds approximately 200-600 ng/dL.

 

[R2D2]

A small simplification would be to replace the testosterone enanthate with weekly testosterone undecanoate. This provides the constant serum testosterone level of 400 ng/dL, to which the daily propionate then adds approximately 200-600 ng/dL.

Really interesting. How do you think this protocol would compare to daily phenylpropinoate? Also, if you were to go down the undecanoate route, what dose of the undeca do you think would be required (as it has such a long half life)? I tend to dose at 12am at night, would that affect the above protocol? (I am tempted to just try it as I have both that I can use..)

Personally, I'm willing to go through the hassle for something that works. That would be a mega achievement for me..

 

[Cataceous]

Really interesting. How do you think this protocol would compare to daily phenylpropinoate? Also, if you were to go down the undecanoate route, what dose of the undeca do you think would be required (as it has such a long half life)? I tend to dose at 12am at night, would that affect the above protocol? (I am tempted to just try it as I have both that I can use..)

Personally, I'm willing to go through the hassle for something that works. That would be a mega achievement for me..

It's certainly possible that daily phenylpropionate would be quite similar to my current enanthate/propionate combination. It's also possible that simply creating a mixture of enanthate and propionate would accomplish something similar, though I could come up with an argument for the behavior to be a little different from that of the unmixed esters.

In the case of undecanoate, I would calculate strictly by testosterone content. So the 9 mg EOD enanthate translates to (9 * 0.72 * 3.5) = 23 mg T per week. This means 36 mg T undecanoate each week. With the same testosterone content, the only difference from enanthate is the time to reach a steady state, months instead of weeks. It's a significant catch, and you also have to wait a long time for undecanoate to leave your system when you stop using it.

I think 12 am dosing would be fine if it doesn't affect sleep. Probably even more natural if you're getting the testosterone peak in the morning.

 

[FLguy123]

Interesting update. Got my lab work back. I’ve been on 15mg prop daily injected around 9pm. These labs drawn around 1pm from Quest.
Total test: 495. Range 250-1100
Free test 125. Range 35-155
Estrone? 18. Range <68
Estradiol <15. Range <39

didn’t realize the doc had the incorrect estrogen tests. Waiting on SHBG but it’s always been low. Surprised my levels dropped this much and makes me wonder what it’s peaking at. Any thoughts?

 

[Cataceous]

Interesting update. Got my lab work back. I’ve been on 15mg prop daily injected around 9pm. These labs drawn around 1pm from Quest.
Total test: 495. Range 250-1100
Free test 125. Range 35-155
Estrone? 18. Range <68
Estradiol <15. Range <39

didn’t realize the doc had the incorrect estrogen tests. Waiting on SHBG but it’s always been low. Surprised my levels dropped this much and makes me wonder what it’s peaking at. Any thoughts?

I think to get a semi-decent estimate of your peak value you need to know the expected average along with the pre-injection trough value. Basically you model the situation with serum testosterone as a linear rise to the peak followed by a linear fall to the trough. Then you assume the peak is as much over the average as the trough is below.

You have a single non-trough value, and the addition of hCG is confounding if it's stimulating production of a non-negligible amount of endogenous testosterone. If the hCG contribution is small then you might estimate a trough testosterone level by assuming the 0.8-day half-life over eight hours. This drops the 495 measurement down to about 370.

 

[R2D2]

Thanks for this, very insightful.

It's certainly possible that daily phenylpropionate would be quite similar to my current enanthate/propionate combination. It's also possible that simply creating a mixture of enanthate and propionate would accomplish something similar, though I could come up with an argument for the behavior to be a little different from that of the unmixed esters.

Can you elaborate re. behaviour? Fair to assume that unmixing esters is preferable over mixing them?

Just trying to understand this a little more, how would a current dose 10.5mg of propionate per day subcutaneously translate to phenylpropionate dosing? Am I likely to see lower peaks of Testosterone and in turn E2? How long do you think it would take to settle on this protocol?

In the case of undecanoate, I would calculate strictly by testosterone content. So the 9 mg EOD enanthate translates to (9 * 0.72 * 3.5) = 23 mg T per week. This means 36 mg T undecanoate each week. With the same testosterone content, the only difference from enanthate is the time to reach a steady state, months instead of weeks. It's a significant catch, and you also have to wait a long time for undecanoate to leave your system when you stop using it.

Agree, this is a major consideration and one I probably wouldn't experiment with until I felt the need to optimise a validated approach. From the discussion so far, the phenylpropionate appears to be an attractive option. What would you say are the potential negatives?

 

[Cataceous]

...
Can you elaborate re. behaviour? Fair to assume that unmixing esters is preferable over mixing them?
...

I'd say that unmixed esters might be preferable only because the behavior is better understood. In my case I know that EOD enanthate by itself establishes an easily controllable, stable base level of testosterone. I've independently established the characteristics of daily propionate, so when I use both esters unmixed I think I have a pretty good idea of what serum testosterone is doing. But if the esters are mixed then the results aren't necessarily equivalent to a sum of the unmixed results. This is because the combination may well end up being like a single ester with a half-life in between that of the two constituents. If this is the case then it could be similar to phenylpropionate. But without testing, or a more detailed examination of theoretical considerations, it's just speculation.

...
Just trying to understand this a little more, how would a current dose 10.5mg of propionate per day subcutaneously translate to phenylpropionate dosing? Am I likely to see lower peaks of Testosterone and in turn E2? How long do you think it would take to settle on this protocol?
...

Ok, 10.5 mg propionate has 8.8 mg testosterone (10.5 * 83.7%). So the equivalent dose of phenypropionate is 12.8 mg (8.8 / 68.6%). You are likely to see lower testosterone peaks and higher troughs with the change in ester. These changes will also be reflected in estradiol. I wish we had more information on the relative importance of peak estradiol versus average. This could give some insight into how various protocols would compare. Regarding a stabilization period, if we accept the phenylpropionate half-life figure of 1.5 days then you're looking at one or two weeks at most, using the rule-of-thumb of four or five half-lives to stabilize. If the half-life is actually longer then the adjustment period would also be longer.

... What would you say are the potential negatives?

If obtaining testosterone phenylpronionate is not a problem then I can't really think of any negatives. You'd still be getting the testosterone you need, it's just a question of whether the muted variation in levels gives better subjective results.

 

[FLguy123]

I discontinued the propionate a week ago and my headaches, neck aches, and light headed feelings are all gone. I’m going to try and go back to cypionate one more time and see how I do and potentially mimic what cataceous is doing with a combination of cyp and prop at a very small dosage of prop.

I am still unsure of what reasons the prop was giving me these sides (didn’t tolerate the ester, excessive swings in levels, etc), but I do feel very confident based on two different times taking a few days off of it my sides vanished. The only other thing I might have tried differently would be subQ as I was doing IM and maybe this lead to larger swings

 

[R2D2]

Thanks @Cataceous , very informative as always

Last question, in terms of the enanthate/prop mix.. I'm assuming it would take much longer to stabilise on this protocol vs the phenylpronionate due to the much longer half life of the enanthate? What would you theorise is a sensible way of moving to this mix from daily subq 10.5mg prop, minimising sides expected from such a transition?

Intuitively, I like the idea of controlling the trough levels with enanthate and merely adjusting for peak and variation with prop. Thanks

NB: when I say mix, I'm referring to your current prop daily and enanthate EOD protocol

 

[R2D2]

I discontinued the propionate a week ago and my headaches, neck aches, and light headed feelings are all gone. I’m going to try and go back to cypionate one more time and see how I do and potentially mimic what cataceous is doing with a combination of cyp and prop at a very small dosage of prop.

I am still unsure of what reasons the prop was giving me these sides (didn’t tolerate the ester, excessive swings in levels, etc), but I do feel very confident based on two different times taking a few days off of it my sides vanished. The only other thing I might have tried differently would be subQ as I was doing IM and maybe this lead to larger swings

Would be great to know how you get on 2-3 weeks after you start this protocol. Good luck with it