Nandrolone Experiences

[DS3]

Im not sure what you’re not understanding. Go find and read the study on nandrolone sensitizing E2 and prolactin receptors. It’s not bro science. I’m not sure what you want me to do. Would you only believe it if you ran the study proving it? Do you only believe certain studies? I’m just not understanding why if it was proven by at least one study, why it’s still “bro science”. Isn’t bro science things that bro’s make up without actual scientific evidence?

And of course there are gonna be guys that have issues on deca. But where’s the examples of men using nandrolone correctly that are having sexual function issues. I’m sure they’re out there, but why can’t anyone present a single case? You’re really saying that since this guy had no clue what he was doing, and ran nandrolone the complete opposite way thatBut where’s the examples of men using nandrolone correctly that are having sexual function issuesit’s meant to be used, that this means that guys should be very concerned about the same thing happening to them? All this video was, is a guide on how to use nandrolone if you want to guarantee sexual dysfunction.

“But where’s the examples of men using nandrolone correctly that are having sexual function issues.”

My physician at Baylor College of Medicine has told me that he’s had guys on the same dosage of their normal T experience ED when adding in nandrolone, with no serum increases in E2 or prolactin (this was in response to me asking him if any of his guys have had issues with deca about 6 months ago). Other patients on very similar doses experience no issues whatsoever. So there are some real-life examples.

You keep harping over one potential side effect of nandrolone, ED. However, I’ve continually brought up reports from men saying they experience lethargy, depression, memory issues, feeling less ‘manly’, yet you’ve woefully ignored those and homed in on ED because it’s easier to argue from a hormonal imbalance standpoint. I experience many of these same side effects with no serum increases in prolactin or E2.

There’s a lot that we don’t know about nandrolone, and potential side effects are real and are not necessarily dependent on E2 or prolactin receptors or serum concentration (as evidenced by guys experiencing issues with no changes in E2 or prolactin).

 

[Gman86]

“But where’s the examples of men using nandrolone correctly that are having sexual function issues.”

My physician at Baylor College of Medicine has told me that he’s had guys on the same dosage of their normal T experience ED when adding in nandrolone, with no serum increases in E2 or prolactin (this was in response to me asking him if any of his guys have had issues with deca about 6 months ago). Other patients on very similar doses experience no issues whatsoever. So there are some real-life examples.

You keep harping over one potential side effect of nandrolone, ED. However, I’ve continually brought up reports from men saying they experience lethargy, depression, memory issues, feeling less ‘manly’, yet you’ve woefully ignored those are homed in one ED because it’s easier to argue from a hormonal imbalance standpoint. I experience many of these same side effects with no serum increases in prolactin or E2.

There’s a lot that we don’t know about nandrolone, and potential side effects are real and are not necessarily dependent on E2 or prolactin receptors or serum concentration (as evidenced by guys experiencing issues with no changes in E2 or prolactin).

Nandorlone WILL NOT increase E2 and prolactin in the serum! I’m not trying to be mean, but I’m going to have to end this conversation here. For some reason, you’re just not understanding how nandrolone works. Nandrolone produces extremely low levels of E2 and prolactin. Why would you expect to see any significant increases in E2 or prolactin in the serum?? All those other side effects are all side effects of either low or high E2/ prolactin. If you don’t believe that receptor sensitivity matters, im not going to waste my time trying to convince you. We see this all the time with insulin receptors. Insulin receptor sensitivity is a thing. Some people require much higher levels of insulin, to get the same effect. This is due to the receptor not being sensitive to the insulin hitting the receptor. The same thing can happen with the testosterone receptor. It can happen with any receptor. But anyways, I’m going to stop responding to you on this thread. We can communicate on other threads if you want, on other subjects than this. But we’re just beating a dead horse at this point, and nothing we’re saying is constructive. I’m honestly surprised the moderators haven’t closed the thread, due to it being so repetitive at this point. I apologize if I’m coming off rude or disrespectful. I just don’t see how us going back and forth is beneficial to anyone, including us.

 

[DS3]

Nandorlone WILL NOT increase E2 and prolactin in the serum! I’m not trying to be mean, but I’m going to have to end this conversation here. For some reason, you’re just not understanding how nandrolone works. Nandrolone produces extremely low levels of E2 and prolactin. Why would you expect to see any significant increases in E2 or prolactin in the serum?? All those other side effects are all side effects of either low or high E2/ prolactin. If you don’t believe that receptor sensitivity matters, im not going to waste my time trying to convince you. We see this all the time with insulin receptors. Insulin receptor sensitivity is a thing. Some people require much higher levels of insulin, to get the same effect. This is due to the receptor not being sensitive to the insulin hitting the receptor. The same thing can happen with the testosterone receptor. It can happen with any receptor. But anyways, I’m going to stop responding to you on this thread. We can communicate on other threads if you want, on other subjects than this. But we’re just beating a dead horse at this point, and nothing we’re saying is constructive. I’m honestly surprised the moderators haven’t closed the thread, due to it being so repetitive at this point. I apologize if I’m coming off rude or disrespectful. I just don’t see how us going back and forth is beneficial to anyone, including us.

@Gman86 Don't be frustrated because I have asked for evidence of your claims and you can produce none. There are no arguments that running deca solo will create low E2 and prolactin; THIS has never been the argument. The argument has consistently surrounded adding nandrolone to TRT, not replacing testosterone with nandrolone.

Your argument has been that running higher testosterone (say a 2:1 ratio) with nandrolone is what causes issues because nandrolone, according to you, increases E2 and prolactin receptor sensitivity (which you have yet to provide evidence of). Yet, as is seen in men's bloodwork, E2 and prolactin actually decrease when adding nandrolone to TRT (ADDING TO, NOT REPLACING TESTOSTERONE WITH NANDROLONE). And any increased receptor sensitivity is likely to be offset by the reduction in prolactin and E2 that men see when ADDING nandrolone to testosterone (again, not supplanting one for the other).

Then you have stated that decreasing testosterone dosage will resolve the issues.

EXPLAIN THIS TO ME THEN.
If prolactin and E2 are already decreased while using a 2:1 test:nandrolone ratio, your solution is to lower testosterone and create an environment with even lower estrogen and prolactin? ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

HERE ARE SOME HIGHLIGHTED INCONSISTENCIES IN YOUR ARGUMENT THROUGHOUT THE DURATION OF THIS THREAD:


“ I’m pretty sure most of the information he talks about with nandrolone is based off of the scientific evidence.” (TAEIAN CLARK- THIS IS YOUR SOURCE OF NANDROLONE INFORMATION, AND YOUR 'PRETTY SURE' IT'S SCIENTIFIC IN NATURE, lol)


“His sexual dysfunction could of still been due to prolactin, but it’s because the test he was running was producing a lot of prolactin, and the nandrolone was making that prolactin more potent at the receptor.” (NOT ACCORDING TO BLOODWORK, this is total speculation, and he was using caber, so high prolactin would not have been the issue)


“Run nandrolone by itself, and you’ll see that your prolactin level is rock bottom. So how could deca be elevating this man’s prolactin level and causing sexual dysfunction?” (UH, YOU JUST SAID IN THE PREVIOUS QUOTE THAT IT IS YOUR BELIEF THAT RUNNING HIGH TEST WITH DECA CAUSES HIGH PROLACTIN)(HE'S NOT RUNNING DECA BY ITSELF, HE CLEARLY STATES THAT)


“But where’s the examples of men using nandrolone correctly that are having sexual function issues. I’m sure they’re out there, but why can’t anyone present a single case?” (I HAVE EVEN GIVEN EXAMPLES FROM LARRY LIPSCHULTZ' MOUTH AT THE Baylor College of Medicine AND YOU WON'T COMMENT BECAUSE IN YOUR MIND, IT DOESN'T EXIST)


“Just to clarify, so when you lowered T, and raised N, and said you still didn’t feel good, your doses of both were 200mg of T, and 100mg of N? If that’s correct, then it’s obv why you would run into issues. Your T is way too high, while concurrently running deca. Deca sensitizes E2 and prolactin receptors. 200mg of test is going to raise E2 and prolactin significantly. So even if they look within range in the serum, your E2 and prolactin receptors could be reacting like you have much much higher levels, and causing issues.” (ACTUALLY, BRO, ADDING DECA TO MY 200MG TEST DECREASED MY E2 AND PROLACTIN, SO EXPERIENCING ADDITIONAL SIDE EFFECTS OF E2 OR PROLACTIN ELEVATION IS DOUBTFUL, ESPECIALLY AS SERUM LEVELS DECREASE WHILE STILL BEING WELL WITHIN NORMAL RANGE. NOW I KNOW YOU ARE OBSESSING OVER THIS RECEPTOR SENSITIVITY DEAL, BUT EVEN IT YOU COULD FIND THE STUDY THAT PROVIDED EVIDENCE, A 40% REDUCTION IN MY PROLACTIN LEVELS AND A 20% REDUCTION IN MY E2 LEVELS after adding in nandrolone WOULD LIKELY MAKE UP FOR ANY POTENTIAL ISSUES CAUSED BY INCREASED E2 AND PROLACTIN RECEPTOR SENSITIVITY). And adding to that, if my prolactin and E2 are already decreased while using a 2:1 test:nandrolone ratio, your solution is to lower testosterone and create an environment with even lower estrogen and prolactin? Again, ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

 

[DS3]

@Gman86 @Rock H. Johnson

Study conducted by Larry Lipschultz et al., at the Baylor College of Medicine regarding nandrolone and joint pain relief in hypogonadal men. (I know most guys on this forum have seen this novel study).

ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION: Regarding erectile dysfunction, the study posited this note, "Interestingly, although not well described in the literature, some users of nandrolone have complained of temporary ED that resolves with cessation of therapy (13). This anecdotal side effect appears to be highly dependent on nandrolone dosage and the use or absence of concomitant testosterone. Although further studies regarding this are needed, plausible mechanisms for this include the insufficient androgenic activity of nandrolone itself and negative-feedback induced suppression of the HPG axis resulting in both reduced testosterone and DHT, the latter of which crucial to nitric-oxide mediated erectile function (13,29).

From this sentiment, Lipshultz and his colleagues appear to be saying that as DHN and DHT are competing for the androgen receptor, if too much DHN binds to the AR in relation to DHT, then ED could be experienced by men due to DHT's role in nitric-oxide mediated erectile function, and DHN's lack thereof.

Below is the study that Lipschultz et al. site regarding DHT's role in nitric-oxide mediated erectile function.

Dihydrotestosterone is the active androgen in the maintenance of nitric oxide-mediated penile erection in the rat. - PubMed - NCBI

From this evidence, though not conclusive as more studies would need to be done, this evidence does provide some rationale for using a DHT-derived anabolic such as Proviron or Masteron during nandrolone therapy as a means of keeping DHT elevated. However, given that while using nandrolone with testosterone, patients will see a reduction in baseline (from testosterone monotherapy E2 and prolactin levels) prolactin and estrogen, adding Proviron or Masteron to the mix could further drive down E2, adding low E2 symptoms to the mix, which is problematic.

 

[Gman86]

@Gman86 @Rock H. Johnson

Study conducted by Larry Lipschultz et al., at the Baylor College of Medicine regarding nandrolone and joint pain relief in hypogonadal men. (I know most guys on this forum have seen this novel study).

ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION: Regarding erectile dysfunction, the study posited this note, "Interestingly, although not well described in the literature, some users of nandrolone have complained of temporary ED that resolves with cessation of therapy (13). This anecdotal side effect appears to be highly dependent on nandrolone dosage and the use or absence of concomitant testosterone. Although further studies regarding this are needed, plausible mechanisms for this include the insufficient androgenic activity of nandrolone itself and negative-feedback induced suppression of the HPG axis resulting in both reduced testosterone and DHT, the latter of which crucial to nitric-oxide mediated erectile function (13,29).

From this sentiment, Lipshultz and his colleagues appear to be saying that as DHN and DHT are competing for the androgen receptor, if too much DHN binds to the AR in relation to DHT, then ED could be experienced by men due to DHT's role in nitric-oxide mediated erectile function, and DHN's lack thereof.

Below is the study that Lipschultz et al. site regarding DHT's role in nitric-oxide mediated erectile function.

Dihydrotestosterone is the active androgen in the maintenance of nitric oxide-mediated penile erection in the rat. - PubMed - NCBI

From this evidence, though not conclusive as more studies would need to be done, this evidence does provide some rationale for using a DHT-derived anabolic such as Proviron or Masteron during nandrolone therapy as a means of keeping DHT elevated. However, given that while using nandrolone with testosterone, patients will see a reduction in baseline (from testosterone monotherapy E2 and prolactin levels) prolactin and estrogen, adding Proviron or Masteron to the mix could further drive down E2, adding low E2 symptoms to the mix, which is problematic.

Thanks for posting this. Not saying every guy needs to use nandrolone, but say a guy just can’t get dialed in on TRT, the possibility of using nandrolone as a base, with low dose test for the small boost in E2 and DHT, seems very promising. Nandrolone as a base, with very low dose test, seems like the perfect combo. Again, only for guys that may prefer to use nandrolone as a base. Imo, it’s probably smarter to use test as a base, if you can get it to work for you, due to all the studies and anecdotal evidence showing it’s safety in long term users.

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

@DS3 Thanks for the confirmation....one could expect that the higher binding affinity of especially Proviron and in lesser degree Masteron to SHBG will free up more Test. Which could again be aromatised into E2, etc.

(I only know that DHT is giving me a Rock Hard Johnson)

 

[DS3]

Thanks for posting this. Not saying every guy needs to use nandrolone, but say a guy just can’t get dialed in on TRT, the possibility of using nandrolone as a base, with low dose test for the small boost in E2 and DHT, seems very promising. Nandrolone as a base, with very low dose test, seems like the perfect combo. Again, only for guys that may prefer to use nandrolone as a base. Imo, it’s probably smarter to use test as a base, if you can get it to work for you, due to all the studies and anecdotal evidence showing it’s safety in long term users.

Given that nandrolone is receiving much interest within the medical community for its therapeutic properties in hypogonadal men, I am sure that more research will be conducted over the next few years. I am confident that we will have more answers to both of our questions in the coming years. @Gman86 If you find studies that I have not commented on during that time, please post them so that I can stay up-to-date as well.

 

[Gman86]

Given that nandrolone is receiving much interest within the medical community for its therapeutic properties in hypogonadal men, I am sure that more research will be conducted over the next few years. I am confident that we will have more answers to both of our questions in the coming years. @Gman86 If you find studies that I have not commented on during that time, please post them so that I can stay up-to-date as well.

Definitely will. Was looking up earlier whether nandrolone increases or decreases cortisol. Couldn’t really figure out which, but I was definitely surprised with how many medical studies popped up about nandrolone and different medical uses. Nandrolone has been much more researched than I originally thought.

 

[Gman86]

@DS3 Thanks for the confirmation....one could expect that the higher binding affinity of especially Proviron and in lesser degree Masteron to SHBG will free up more Test. Which could again be aromatised into E2, etc.

(I only know that DHT is giving me a Rock Hard Johnson)

Just got your username now . Can’t believe that went over my head lol

 

[DS3]

@Gman86 you will like this

Taiean Clark commentary at 20:00

 

[JimGainz]

Low dose deca user here. Started my second cycle with TRT 60mg deca with 90 mg test weekly two weeks ago. No issues. As someone who is prone to anxiety and insomnia I am keen to monitor for this. So far so good.

Much of the issues I have seen posted in videos regarding deca dick, memory loss, or vascular problems from deca are dose dependent (typically 200 mg/week or more) or were animal studies.

I had used Deca / Test in the 80s when I was bodybuilding at 250mg each weekly with fantastic gains but also with all of the problems mentioned here. We didn’t know what we were doing back then and did not PCT so it took months to recover.

Fast forward 30+ years and I'm glad to see this compound available for TRT users. Joints feel great and I don’t mind the few lbs of lean mass it gives me.

These drugs affect everyone differently. I know guys that can’t take TRT doses of Testosterone due to bad sides which can’t be managed.

My advice with deca is keep it to the minimum effective dose (which seems to be around 50mg - 100 mg), use with TRT, keep your Testosterone a little higher than the deca, and in fact you may need to lower your normal test dose a bit because I found the test and deca fight for the same receptors so E2 goes up a bit.

There are thousands of HIV patients who have been on deca for decades - and I have not seen any studies on the negative mental or vascular effects in these men - but I keep an open mind and am cautious. Maybe 1 or two low dose deca cycles added to TRT per year for me - that’s enough to reap some benefits while minimizing risk to an acceptable level, at least for me.

 

[DS3]

Low dose deca user here. Started my second cycle with TRT 60mg deca with 90 mg test weekly two weeks ago. No issues. As someone who is prone to anxiety and insomnia I am keen to monitor for this. So far so good.

Much of the issues I have seen posted in videos regarding deca dick, memory loss, or vascular problems from deca are dose dependent (typically 200 mg/week or more) or were animal studies.

I had used Deca / Test in the 80s when I was bodybuilding at 250mg each weekly with fantastic gains but also with all of the problems mentioned here. We didn’t know what we were doing back then and did not PCT so it took months to recover.

Fast forward 30+ years and I'm glad to see this compound available for TRT users. Joints feel great and I don’t mind the few lbs of lean mass it gives me.

These drugs affect everyone differently. I know guys that can’t take TRT doses of Testosterone due to bad sides which can’t be managed.

My advice with deca is keep it to the minimum effective dose (which seems to be around 50mg - 100 mg), use with TRT, keep your Testosterone a little higher than the deca, and in fact you may need to lower your normal test dose a bit because I found the test and deca fight for the same receptors so E2 goes up a bit.

There are thousands of HIV patients who have been on deca for decades - and I have not seen any studies on the negative mental or vascular effects in these men - but I keep an open mind and am cautious. Maybe 1 or two low dose deca cycles added to TRT per year for me - that’s enough to reap some benefits while minimizing risk to an acceptable level, at least for me.

This is great anecdotal evidence of someone who does well with low dose nandrolone. Thank you for your post.

In the nandrolone studies, was the aim of the studies you are referring to to determine nandrolone's role in reversing cachexia? Or was its goal to determine nandrolone's psychological and cognitive impact on HIV patients?

 

[JimGainz]

This is great anecdotal evidence of someone who does well with low dose nandrolone. Thank you for your post.

In the nandrolone studies, was the aim of the studies you are referring to to determine nandrolone's role in reversing cachexia? Or was its goal to determine nandrolone's psychological and cognitive impact on HIV patients?

the only studies I have seen were on muscle wasting (along with some basic health markers like BP, kidney function, etc) not cognitive effects in that population. But that was my point - I would assume that if the drug had such broad negative cognitive effects there would have been studies confirming that given the amount of people who have been taking the drug for legit muscle wasting purposes over many years.

 

[DS3]

the only studies I have seen were on muscle wasting (along with some basic health markers like BP, kidney function, etc) not cognitive effects in that population. But that was my point - I would assume that if the drug had such broad negative cognitive effects there would have been studies confirming that given the amount of people who have been taking the drug for legit muscle wasting purposes over many years.

And you may be right. Given anecdotal stories from guys like the founder of this forum, Nelson Vergel, along with other instances of guys taking nandrolone for TRT purposes or enhancement purposes, it may not be that ALL guys will experience short-term memory issues with nandrolone administration. However, given the anecdotes of guys like myself that experience pronounced short-term memory deficits with its administration, along with mammalian studies discussing neural changes seen within the hippocampus during nandrolone administration, the likelihood that some people will experience pronounced short-term memory deficits while others will likely experience moderate or minimal deficits is probable.

I would hypothesize that if the results of mammalian studies that demonstrate negative effects on hippocampal function during nandrolone administration hold true in future studies on humans, many if not most users will experience short-term memory deficits as a result of negative changes that occur within the hippocampus. (Regardless of whether they were perceptive enough to report on it or not).

I would also posit that studies done on HIV patients taking nandrolone would not be concerned with memory function, nor would the HIV patients taking nandrolone to combat cachexia. Researchers would certainly note whether vital health markers such as BP, cholesterol, and hematocrit were within a healthy range, but administering memory and cognitive assessments to determine the net effect nandrolone has on memory and cognitive function would not be something that researchers conducting these studies would have time or resources for.

Voluntary exercise does not ameliorate spatial learning and memory deficits induced by chronic administration of nandrolone decanoate in rats - ScienceDirect (memory impairment in rats with chronic administration)
Nandrolone abuse decreases anxiety and impairs memory in rats via central androgenic receptors (memory impairment in rats with chronic administration)
Nandrolone decanoate administration elevates hippocampal prodynorphin mRNA expression and impairs Morris water maze performance in male rats - ScienceDirect (memory impairment in rats via dynorphinergic actions)

*There are numerous studies out there demonstrating the negative effects that nandrolone administration has on hippocampal function and overall memory in mammals. A simple Google Scholar search will yield more than you bargained for.

 

[slicktop]

Once again, as an over 40 lifter, I'm really appreciative of this thread. I'm hoping to start my own personal low-dose nandrolone trial to add to my TRT with Defy in mid-February, and I'll post updates to a fresh thread at that time. Thanks again for the convo, gents.

 

[Gman86]

Once again, as an over 40 lifter, I'm really appreciative of this thread. I'm hoping to start my own personal low-dose nandrolone trial to add to my TRT with Defy in mid-February, and I'll post updates to a fresh thread at that time. Thanks again for the convo, gents.

Yes, please do. Would love to hear how it goes for you. I’m also with Defy, and will be hopefully adding nandrolone at the end of February or the beginning of March.

 

[DS3]

Once again, as an over 40 lifter, I'm really appreciative of this thread. I'm hoping to start my own personal low-dose nandrolone trial to add to my TRT with Defy in mid-February, and I'll post updates to a fresh thread at that time. Thanks again for the convo, gents.

Awesome!

 

[Paul M]

The only problem I'm having on 75mg of deca E8D is a bit of gyno. Never had it running test alone.

 

[Gman86]

The only problem I'm having on 75mg of deca E8D is a bit of gyno. Never had it running test alone.

What’s your entire protocol look like?

Even though deca is a long esther, I would still inject it at least twice per week. When I run deca I’m personally going to be injecting it EOD.

 

[Paul M]

Inject a blend of deca and enanthate every other day which works out at 75mg of each E8D. I also inject 200IU of HCG EOD.