Lowest dose you have heard to achieve 1000 ng?

[Cataceous]

It is my understanding that my dose is probably too high if I am aromatising too much? Surely there is a sweet spot we all possess where our testosterone is at a good level but anything above that starts the steady accumulation of E2.

Above 1000 seems to be too high for me as my E2 is still over 60 despite only taking 80mg a week of test E. The difficult question I will ask my doctor is should I titrate T down or HCG?

With testosterone alone the relationship with estradiol is fairly linear, except at very high levels, where saturation of aromatase becomes significant.

hCG complicates matters because it directly stimulates aromatization in the testicles. My suspicion is that its long half life contributes to relatively high estradiol production compared to natural luteinizing hormone.

One thing to try is to reduce the frequency of the hCG injections. Someone, maybe Nelson, has suggested that peak levels have independent importance. If so then injecting the same amounts a little less often could reduce average estradiol while retaining other benefits.

 

[Mr S]

With testosterone alone the relationship with estradiol is fairly linear, except at very high levels, where saturation of aromatase becomes significant.

hCG complicates matters because it directly stimulates aromatization in the testicles. My suspicion is that its long half life contributes to relatively high estradiol production compared to natural luteinizing hormone.

One thing to try is to reduce the frequency of the hCG injections. Someone, maybe Nelson, has suggested that peak levels have independent importance. If so then injecting the same amounts a little less often could reduce average estradiol while retaining other benefits.

I’ve read frequently that the aromatization in the testicles caused by hCG is more difficult to manage than the otherwise produced by T alone. As you say, the benefits of hCG are important. If decreasing or changing hCG injection frequency doesn’t help, would Arimidex or any other estradiol inhibitor be helpful?

 

[Systemlord]

I’ve read frequently that the aromatization in the testicles caused by hCG is more difficult to manage than the otherwise produced by T alone. As you say, the benefits of hCG are important. If decreasing or changing hCG injection frequency doesn’t help, would Arimidex or any other estradiol inhibitor be helpful?

Anastrozole can't affect E2 produced inside the testicles., in these cases you must lower the HCG dosage. Anastrozole can be helpful to a point.

 

[Mr S]

Anastrozole can't affect E2 produced inside the testicles., in these cases you must lower the HCG dosage. Anastrozole can be helpful to a point.

That’s why it can become very complex then

 

[antelopers]

Your body isn’t allergic to e2. The reaction comes from the change. It levels off.

So I'm curious, are you saying that very high levels off e2 wont cause side effects if you stick with the dose for long enough?

 

[Mr S]

It’s not nearly as complex as people on here get spun up about.

I’m on 300/wk test and 1000mg hcg. I don’t take an ai. My e2 is about double the range. No symptoms other than libido is so high it’s annoying at times. I’m not special. I’ve had other successful protocols that included an ai. This has been the best one.

Pick a dose, stick it through when sides come up, use a tiny bit of ai is you must, but only temporarily. Your body isn’t allergic to e2. The reaction comes from the change. It levels off.

I will definitely start taking hCG and stick to it. I don’t want testicular atrophy that’s for sure. What’s the most frequent side effect of hCG? Thank you

 

[fifty]

I stopped my ai for a month. Soon after I got to a point where I had insomnia issues. Felt worse overall. Added the .125 ai back in and it definitely helps me. E2 was top of normal range on the ai. Higher e2 definitely did not make me feel better. If I feel bad I’m not gonna stick it out for months on end hoping for some possible eventual benefit.

Too much hcg gives me the same type of issues...harder to relax/sleep. I am down to 125iu mwf there.

 

[Mr S]

Then reduce your dose rather than add the ai. That’s my take on it.

I stopped my ai for a month. Soon after I got to a point where I had insomnia issues. Felt worse overall. Added the .125 ai back in and it definitely helps me. E2 was top of normal range on the ai. Higher e2 definitely did not make me feel better. If I feel bad I’m not gonna stick it out for months on end hoping for some possible eventual benefit.

Too much hcg gives me the same type of issues...harder to relax/sleep. I am down to 125iu mwf there.

take a look at this YouTube video on HCG. It might give you some ideas.

 

[Cataceous]

take a look at this YouTube video on HCG. It might give you some ideas.
...

The short version is that he recommends 250 IU on two consecutive days each week. He thinks it avoids desensitization. But without some theory or measurements behind the method it's just conjecture, and 250 IU E3.5D might be just as good or better. In addition, we have at least one controlled study showing that 250-300 IU EOD restores intratesticular testosterone to normal levels, which would seem to be a desirable goal if you don't have problems with estradiol at this dose.

 

[Mr S]

The short version is that he recommends 250 IU on two consecutive days each week. He thinks it avoids desensitization. But without some theory or measurements behind the method it's just conjecture, and 250 IU E3.5D might be just as good or better. In addition, we have at least one controlled study showing that 250-300 IU EOD restores intratesticular testosterone to normal levels, which would seem to be a desirable goal if you don't have problems with estradiol at this dose.

Good to know. True, it’s rather a conjecture from his side. The valid point is to maintain that function otherwise suppressed by exogenous Testosterone. Best if no sides are an outcome from adding hcg to the TRT protocol or at least those “unbearable” side effects.

 

[sokaiya]

I was put on 140mg T cypionate per week and my trough was 700ng but no HCG in my protocol. Not just yet. Perhaps HCG mono therapy might work for you in such a small dose? My Dr doesn’t want me beyond 700ng but he soon will start me on HCG because of signs of testicular atrophy. I’ll be facing a different animal then. Who knows how my body will respond to the additional hormone.

I'm on 20mg EOD and my numbers at 700

 

[Mr S]

I'm on 20mg EOD and my numbers at 700

Do you inject hCG ?

 

[sokaiya]

Do you inject hCG ?

oh hell no.

 

[MikeXL]

I have heard of 4 pumps of androgel getting someone to 1200. Also, have heard of 10mg daily SC injections getting someone to 1000

 

[bp]

I have decreased my dose on 3 occasions and I still keep hitting over 1000ng each time with a corresponding high aromatise to E2. it seems when I decrease my dose my body just seems to metabolise these substances differently. I have titrated down from 100mg of Test E and 1000iu of HCG a week to 80mg and 600iu over a period of 4 months and I am still hitting the same numbers. which appears to be 1000ng - 1200ng and around 60pg. SHBG is at 50 nmol. There was one reading in December where my E2 came down to about 35pg but this appeared to be an anomaly as 3 other readings have all been above 60pg.

This does not make a lot of sense to me. How far do I have to go down to reach sensible levels? are there any guys out there who hit high numbers with very low doses?

And do I have to bite the bullet and start on a AI or is there still a possibility of manipulating my protocol to achieve reasonable levels?

are there any guys out there who hit high numbers with very low doses?

To answer your question, ...yes

I was pinning twice per week 62.5mg testE (125mg testE total weekly) and 250iu hcg E3D
My bloodwork came back totally mental.
Total Test over 2500 !!! (E2 thru the roof, SHBG 30)

i lowered the dose to 80 mg per week total testE (no HCG)
Total test was still 1300 ( E2 lower, SHBG 32)

Lowered again , 60mg per week (pinned every day 60mg/7) (no HCG)
Total test still too high at 1150 (E2 30, SHBG 34)

Now on recent protocol of 50mg testE per week (pinning every day 50mg/7) (no HCG)
With abit of luck ill be just under the 1000 mark for total test, and hopefully the E2 drops abit more and the SHBG stays put.

 

[bp]

I have heard of 4 pumps of androgel getting someone to 1200. Also, have heard of 10mg daily SC injections getting someone to 1000

8.6mg daily test enanthate (60mg per week total) put me at 1150 !!! insulin pin, 13mm needle in the deltoid.