Low SHBG: T Gel along with Injected T has Helped Somewhat

[Vince Carter]

If you're going to try Prop, you need to be aware of the PIP associated with such a short esther. I would imagine the guys here have some useful tips, I tried it once to see the difference and it was crippling, had to tell people I pulled a muscle at the gym to explain my change in gait.

Ive well considered that, but, most other reports of Prop pain seem to come from abuse level dosing and multiple mL's being injected.

 

[miked123]

Try the Prop from Empower. I've used it every day since early March and have had absolutely zero pain. It's also slightly less viscous than Cypionate.

Curious, do you know the kind of oil the Empower Prop is suspended in? Grapeseed, cottonseed, something else?

 

[Jason Sypolt]

Curious, do you know the kind of oil the Empower Prop is suspended in? Grapeseed, cottonseed, something else?

My vial says grapeseed, and it's 100mg/ml. I'll try to remember to ask and see if I can get any specifics when I get a refill. I'm currently injecting 0.2ml and supplementing with cream, but I've tried 0.25ml a couple of times with no problems.

 

[ERO]

ERO, Do you feel your experience is relevant for men who have low SHBG for reasons other than it being a natural state? My low SHBG seems to be protocol, health or lifestyle related rather than a natural state. It is now 10.1L ( 11.0 - 78.0 ) on a steady downward trend from 22.7 since 09/8/15 as posted in my thread. It dropped to 17.9 by 12/31/15 while on hGG mono. I've continued with hCG as I added cyp so perhaps that is the cause. Scrotal transdermal has been recommended to me for low DHT as well as progesterone and pregnenolone supplementation. No one has suggested that I switch to propionate from cypionate. Your thread has me considering propionate although for the most part low libido has not been an issue. My lab results deviate considerably from what seems to be the norm on here for example E2 sens 94 and 61 E2 standard from the same sample as well as hematocrit dropping unexpectedly by 5 points in a matter of days.

Personally Test Prop was no better for me than Test Cyp - I am using the mix of Prop and Cyp but that did nothing by itself - it was not until I added the T Gel to my scrotum daily that I began to feel anything at all from TRT - and I truly mean ANYTHING. I have used straight Prop and the PIP was not an issue with small daily SubQ or shallow IM injections, but I can see where it could be with deep IM of larger amounts less frequently.

You say you do have good libido, which is terrific - do you get the other benefits of TRT as well? (perhaps add a bit of muscle, loose a bit of fat, better energy, no brain fog, etc.?) I get none of those.

 

[Re-Ride]

Personally Test Prop was no better for me than Test Cyp - I am using the mix of Prop and Cyp but that did nothing by itself - it was not until I added the T Gel to my scrotum daily that I began to feel anything at all from TRT - and I truly mean ANYTHING...

You say you do have good libido, which is terrific - do you get the other benefits of TRT as well? (perhaps add a bit of muscle, loose a bit of fat, better energy, no brain fog, etc.?) I get none of those.

Thanks for the reply ERO. Yep. All the expected benefits. The decades I was on gel only near did me in. It's too late to repair all the damage but I'm lucky to have found this site when I did. These last five months presented major hurdles in every area of life. Recent labs reflect that. Social and psychological pressures are not to be discounted. I know you will continue to make progress.

 

[AbsoluteZ3R0]

ERO, I know you've talked about this before, but have you experienced any anabolic effects from your testosterone usage throughout the years? Have you really gained no significant amount of muscle tissue?

 

[ERO]

ERO, I know you've talked about this before, but have you experienced any anabolic effects from your testosterone usage throughout the years? Have you really gained no significant amount of muscle tissue?

Sadly I have not. I have lifted weights since high school and any muscle I have came before TRT. Before I knew how critical SHBG is, I figured that going from a Total T level of ~300 before TRT to the top of the normal range (for over 5 years now) would let me kill in in the gym. Boy was I wrong...I feel like I have Low T all the time because I do not recover well at all from exercise...I work each body part once weekly in a sensible program, I know how to calculate my macros for my diet (and I do well following it - not perfect, but pretty darn good) and I sleep decently...but a week goes by and any given body part is still a bit sore from last week's workout. Its been years since I was able to add anything to any of my lifts. Seriously, the average woman builds muscle better than I do.

 

[madman]

ERO, I know you've talked about this before, but have you experienced any anabolic effects from your testosterone usage throughout the years? Have you really gained no significant amount of muscle tissue?

trt doses will enhance muscle growth if one is lifting weights/eating to gain mass but as far as significant muscle gain highly unlikely unless one is using supra physiological doses of testosterone. If one had low test levels pre trt and followed a trt protocol which causes their blood levels to be in the upper range than of course if training/eating right one would notice increased muscle/strength gains but as far as SIGNIFICANT I would say MODEST.

 

[madman]

Sadly I have not. I have lifted weights since high school and any muscle I have came before TRT. Before I knew how critical SHBG is, I figured that going from a Total T level of ~300 before TRT to the top of the normal range (for over 5 years now) would let me kill in in the gym. Boy was I wrong...I feel like I have Low T all the time because I do not recover well at all from exercise...I work each body part once weekly in a sensible program, I know how to calculate my macros for my diet (and I do well following it - not perfect, but pretty darn good) and I sleep decently...but a week goes by and any given body part is still a bit sore from last week's workout. Its been years since I was able to add anything to any of my lifts. Seriously, the average woman builds muscle better than I do.

A lot of people are ill informed regarding trt and gaining muscle/strength. Sure having healthy levels in the upper range like when one was in his twenties will aid in increasing muscle/strength gains and enhanced recovery and improving mood/drive but as far as turning into a raging mad man in the gym and packing on the muscle/strength not going to happen. Most of the people you hear putting on significant amounts muscle/strength are either blasting and cruising on trt or cycling using supra-physiological doses of testosterone let alone other compounds and as far as raging libido common now was it really meant for the human male to be horny 24/7 especially in your 30s,40s,50s,60s,70s are society would be in a sham if that was natures intention. Having healthy testosterone levels one should have a normal healthy functioning libido not raging ( maybe in ones teens/early twenties ) as you are going through puberty and are your most fertile. Just find it odd how so many people expect trt to turn them into some kind of horny/raging sex machine and transforming from david banner to the incredible hulk.

 

[ERO]

A lot of people are ill informed regarding trt and gaining muscle/strength. Sure having healthy levels in the upper range like when one was in his twenties will aid in increasing muscle/strength gains and enhanced recovery and improving mood/drive but as far as turning into a raging mad man in the gym and packing on the muscle/strength not going to happen. Most of the people you hear putting on significant amounts muscle/strength are either blasting and cruising on trt or cycling using supra-physiological doses of testosterone let alone other compounds and as far as raging libido common now was it really meant for the human male to be horny 24/7 especially in your 30s,40s,50s,60s,70s are society would be in a sham if that was natures intention. Having healthy testosterone levels one should have a normal healthy functioning libido not raging ( maybe in ones teens/early twenties ) as you are going through puberty and are your most fertile. Just find it odd how so many people expect trt to turn them into some kind of horny/raging sex machine and transforming from david banner to the incredible hulk.

For me, I was just hoping to add a bit of muscle and lose a bit of fat, not look like a professional bodybuilder. But I don't even recover fully from exercise so those goals are off the table.

 

[Vince Carter]

sorry i'm just kind of laughing here...I'm unequivocally bigger, stronger, and heavier than I've ever been in my life, ~28 years lifting, since late 80's in high school. started with a 95lb 1RM on bench @ 140lbs.

Graduated basic training @ 5' 9" @ 132lbs.

Classic ectomorph DEFINED.

I'm pushing 220# now, every lift I have is wayyyyyy up in poundage. I've probably gained 40# in body weight the last two years.

I'm not going to be a braggart and im not down with body fat % and diet details but don't say you can't pack on muscle mass or appreciably transform your body with basic TRT.

 

[madman]

sorry i'm just kind of laughing here...I'm unequivocally bigger, stronger, and heavier than I've ever been in my life, ~28 years lifting, since late 80's in high school. started with a 95lb 1RM on bench @ 140lbs.

Graduated basic training @ 5' 9" @ 132lbs.

Classic ectomorph DEFINED.

I'm pushing 220# now, every lift I have is wayyyyyy up in poundage. I've probably gained 40# in body weight the last two years.

I'm not going to be a braggart and im not down with body fat % and diet details but don't say you can't pack on muscle mass or appreciably transform your body with basic TRT.

So the majority of people on trt are doing between 80-150mg max on trt weekly right and depending on what dosage is needed to get their test levels into a healthy optimal range, if I understood you correctly from your previous posts you are on 200mg/week no? Most would not consider 200mg/week a common trt dosage I would say entering the realms of a light cycle. Anyone injecting 200mgs of testosterone weekly long term will put on muscle but for the average lower dose test most trt users are prescribed your not packing on a significant amount of muscle!

So you are telling me you were 180lbs natty pre trt, never tried pro hormones, testosterone/aas ever before you started therapy and now you packed on 40lbs pure muscle tissue in 2yrs? Any amateur/professional bodybuilder would be envious of you to be able to pack on 40lbs muscle in 2yrs. I am talking actin/myosin ( muscle tissue ) not increased glycogen,water retention (intra/extra cellular).If you can convince me you have gained 40lbs of PURE muscle tissue I would be truly amazed!

 

[lowe2sucks]

you can be in good shape on trt but that's it.. it's not only about testosterone. also igf-1 level, growth hormone. that's why for some men trt will do much better for staying lean and building muscle. but there is a reason bodybuilders use grams of testosterone because 100mgs is simply not that much for getting that big

 

[madman]

you can be in good shape on trt but that's it.. it's not only about testosterone. also igf-1 level, growth hormone. that's why for some men trt will do much better for staying lean and building muscle. but there is a reason bodybuilders use grams of testosterone because 100mgs is simply not that much for getting that big

Even at 125mg/week on average 4kg of muscle, hardly significant!
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172.long

 

[lowe2sucks]

yes this makes sense. I can say when my hormones where not optimized I would gain fat eating calorie deficit diet and doing cardio 5 times a week.. so trt makes it possible to look fit again but I think it also depends how much muscle do you have i've seen guys who build their muscle mass on far bigger T doses were able to keep most of that muscle on high trt dose 200mgs as long as they hit the gym regularly and eat enough calories. not shredded ofcourse but lean

 

[hardrlz]

Please keep us updated ERO, for me the situation is even more desperate since i live in a small sh*tty country and dont have access to knowledgeable doctors.

I am starting to believe Low SHBG is not actually the root cause of all our problems. For example why when we try many other substances except test, that are not transported by SHBG, like HGH, peptides, etc. they also feel like water. Right now for example i am experimenting with Trestolone Acetate, which is also supposedly not binding with SHBG, it feels like water as well.

Otherwise its good that you feel something by using this method. There was recently one low SHBG guy who mentioned here that he saw results with high dose Proviron, which rises DHT significantly as well.

 

[AbsoluteZ3R0]

Please keep us updated ERO, for me the situation is even more desperate since i live in a small sh*tty country and dont have access to knowledgeable doctors.

I am starting to believe Low SHBG is not actually the root cause of all our problems. For example why when we try many other substances except test, that are not transported by SHBG, like HGH, peptides, etc. they also feel like water. Right now for example i am experimenting with Trestolone Acetate, which is also supposedly not binding with SHBG, it feels like water as well.

Otherwise its good that you feel something by using this method. There was recently one low SHBG guy who mentioned here that he saw results with high dose Proviron, which rises DHT significantly as well.

As far as I know, Proviron obliterates SHBG and raises free t so it's probably a bad idea if low SHBG is the actual root cause. What I find interesting is lack of anabolic response. Even with low SHBG, you might get mood swings/unstable hormone levels, but the overall elevation of testosterone should still yield some anabolic effects. I have to wonder if it's something like androgen insensitivity syndrome.

 

[hardrlz]

Yes i have also thought about something being wrong with our androgen receptors, otherwise at least some substance would have had some effect at all and believe me i have tried almost everything available.

Also i am not sure but when i inject test or as currently trestolone acetate, i tend to gain muscle a bit faster (with training of course) , but without any increase in strength at all, but this could also be only in my head.

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

Yes i have also thought about something being wrong with our androgen receptors, otherwise at least some substance would have had some effect at all and believe me i have tried almost everything available.

Also i am not sure but when i inject test or as currently trestolone acetate, i tend to gain muscle a bit faster (with training of course) , but without any increase in strength at all, but this could also be only in my head.

Copying here one of my responses from a thread over on PeakT regarding low SHBG, which is a topic of interest to me similar to post-finasteride syndrome...as these cases are always notoriously challenging.


"There is clearly more to the story than anyone fully comprehends until more research is dedicated to this area. Certain disease states, as noted, can contribute to a "secondary" low SHBG condition. You also allude to the possibility of a more "primary" low SHBG condition.

You may find the following interesting:

https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article-lookup/doi/10.1093/humrep/dem382

Although it is a study of PCOS in females, I have always thought it provided some very thought-provoking data on the genetic components (and variability) when it comes to SHBG and androgen receptors. The study discusses different SHBG alleles and different androgen receptor alleles, these are the genotypes - with certain combinations (in this case long SHBG allele and short AR allele) making the PHENOtype of PCOS more likely...thus pointing to a possible genetic or "fetal programming" as they postulate for developing PCOS. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to imagine the same variables at play for many low SHBG guys (in the absence of the contributing disease states)."

Another note - there are some interesting links with female PCOS/genetics as I've had several very low SHBG males with a family history of PCOS in female relatives. Further some of the discussion that board member "James" and I had:

"Premature androgenic alopecia and insulin resistance. Male equivalent of polycystic ovary syndrome
Starka L, Duskova M, Cermakova I, Vrbikova J, Hill M.
Institute of Endocrinology, Narodni 8, CZ 116 94 Prague 1, Czech Republic.

Another fascinating study of relevance is one of a man with no detectable SHBG due to a homozygous missense mutation. While the abstract offers little of interest to this discussion, the full case history is much more interesting (although, hard to find for free on the Internet.) As the abstract reveals, he presented with "muscle weakness, fatigue, and a low libido" although he was mostly normal with respect to sexual maturation (as are all of our "Internet" low SHBG cases.) His lack of SHBG caused HTPA suppression and hypogonadism. Testosterone replacement therapy failed to resolve his issues. Also not mentioned in the abstract is that he has a sister with the same condition. The key takeaway being that the complaints related to libido, fatigue and muscle weakness. More importantly, testosterone in the absence of SHBG did not restore libido or strength.

Link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24937543

Many of the "presumed congenital" cases share the muscle weakness complaint, to the point of claiming to be completely unable to sustain or build noticable mass."

 

[ERO]

Great information, thank you for posting this Dr. Saya

This info certainly validates my TRT history. (no) libido, fatigue, muscle weakness, unable to build any muscle, with Testosterone not helping with any of those symptoms.