Lipids / Iron / Ferritin Labs

[Belekas]

My suspicion was that I was taking fairly high dose Vitamin C amid the Covid madness. High dose vitamin C, high carnivore-based Keto, and low ceruloplasmin primed me for iron overload. Taking Vitamin C with food increases iron levels.

My Iron saturation was 29%, so it was fine. My ceruloplasmin was low at 18 mg-dl. I donated blood for 18 months as soon as I was eligible and schedule permitting. I felt great after each donation. I mean fantastic.
I've paused the blood donation because my ferritin got down to 11.
The strange thing is that I started supplementing copper in December 2022, 4 mg a day. I re-did the "Full Monty" (Morley Robbins - Root Cause Protocol Morley Robbins: How Balancing Copper, Iron, Magnesium and 1 Protein is the Solution that You're Looking For) labs this February (2024), and my ceruloplasmin was lower than before I started supplementing - at 14 mg-dl. So starting in February I started taking 8 mg copper per day (4mg, twice per day). Then I started going up to 12 mg for a while. I realize most people say 8 mg is the absolute max, but I have had no negative side effects. I want to repeat the Full Monty and see whether ceruloplasmin is up.
I have gone from eating Keto for 22 years to eating bioenergetic. That reduced my LDL without lowering by HDL or raising triglycerides. Unfortunately, my HbA1c went up during this time. I'm hoping that this is temporary. So for me the jury is still out on copper levels and HbA1c.
I think the Morley Robbins Root Cause approach make sense if you are high ferritin and low ceruloplasmin. I realize other people don't have that problem, but I did.

Hey Jim much appreciated for the complete, detailed post. Thank you. Glad that it recovered and you felt better after donating.

I never tested ceruloplasmin but now that I have been rading RCP for quite some time that is getting more interest as well. I will read the link you provided in detail. So did the copper supplementation made you feel better in any ways? I read that testing hair for copper and other metals is the way to go but I'm not sure about this one.

My issue is different because my TS was 52% and Ferritin sub 400 during the test month or so ago. But also I was tested at the end of being seriously sick with flu or whatever that was and was still feeling like shit. I know body shuttles iron to ferritin when sick to starve off the virus / bacteria. Temp goes up to cook it and removing serum iron helps inhibit replication. Viruses and bacteria need iron to replicate. Inflammation also can raise ferritin fwiw. But since I'm Eastern European and have traits of Celtic ancestry I'm sensing I might have HH. Had 500mg blood removed on Saturday and have another full Iron panel test so will do next week or so to see how numbers look. My ferritin was >120 on TRT and thats a major red flag to investigate further. Wish I knew it last year, now that I'm off. Live and learn. Whats interesting that Ferritin goes up slowly over the lifetime upto 40-50 years and then spikes if you have issues. But at that time damage might have been already done without us not knowing anything. So fingers crossed nothing more serious is going on.

Regards,
bel

 

[Fortunate]

How can drawing labs at the same time as donation NOT affect the results if the samples follow the phlebotomy? At a minimum it adds a potential confounder.

I don't disagree. But, any lab that represents the body's physiologic response to a donation would not have occurred yet. I'd have to ponder it more closely, but I would venture to guess that some labs are affected while others may not be (slower to respond values).

 

[Jim Marlowe]

Hey Jim much appreciated for the complete, detailed post. Thank you. Glad that it recovered and you felt better after donating.

I never tested ceruloplasmin but now that I have been rading RCP for quite some time that is getting more interest as well. I will read the link you provided in detail. So did the copper supplementation made you feel better in any ways? I read that testing hair for copper and other metals is the way to go but I'm not sure about this one.

My issue is different because my TS was 52% and Ferritin sub 400 during the test month or so ago. But also I was tested at the end of being seriously sick with flu or whatever that was and was still feeling like shit. I know body shuttles iron to ferritin when sick to starve off the virus / bacteria. Temp goes up to cook it and removing serum iron helps inhibit replication. Viruses and bacteria need iron to replicate. Inflammation also can raise ferritin fwiw. But since I'm Eastern European and have traits of Celtic ancestry I'm sensing I might have HH. Had 500mg blood removed on Saturday and have another full Iron panel test so will do next week or so to see how numbers look. My ferritin was >120 on TRT and thats a major red flag to investigate further. Wish I knew it last year, now that I'm off. Live and learn. Whats interesting that Ferritin goes up slowly over the lifetime upto 40-50 years and then spikes if you have issues. But at that time damage might have been already done without us not knowing anything. So fingers crossed nothing more serious is going on.

Regards,
bel

Chris Masterjohn PhD just wrote a piece about ferritin in his Substack. Am posting below, but I'm not 100% sure it is not behind a paywall. The gist of what he writes is there's still much we don't understand about serum ferritin. Seems a bit of an understatement.

https://chrismasterjohnphd.substack.com/p/you-dont-understand-serum-ferritin

 

[FDV70]

Chris Masterjohn PhD just wrote a piece about ferritin in his Substack. Am posting below, but I'm not 100% sure it is not behind a paywall. The gist of what he writes is there's still much we don't understand about serum ferritin. Seems a bit of an understatement.

https://chrismasterjohnphd.substack.com/p/you-dont-understand-serum-ferritin

He states:
"It is very well established why this is a bad idea. Anemia of inflammation, also called anemia of chronic disease, results from ferritin trapping iron and making it unusable."

As stated, this is well beyond profoundly misleading. This is raising ferritin with the inflammation pathway via IL-6 (Interleukin 6) and as soon as inflammation drops, ferritin is used by the body for hemoglobin. Calling is "unusable" is wrong. This is basic Ganz*. It is very much usable -- when inflammation drops.

Aside -- in men on TRT, it may not drop since a high hemoglobin locks ferritin in place. Everyone else has a nose-dive. This 'high hemoglobin locks ferritin' is what makes my protocol work by the way. We just use the iron (BMP/SMAD) pathway instead of the IL-6 pathway.

"It can cause functional iron deficiency that coexists with high ferritin."

Yes, by lowering transferrin saturation (because iron is in cells, since hepcidin is high and binds to ferroportin) and thereby driving down hemoglobin. Again except in men on TRT since we are flooded with erythroferrone which negatively regulates hepcidin except in extremely high iron dosing or high IL-6 levels.

I wrote a piece for FB groups here explaining the inflammatory response in covid:

Covid, iron, and ferritin

"However, what is not well understood at all is that literally no one, not me, not you, not your doctor, and not the global leaders in ferritin research, understand how ferritin gets into your blood or what on earth it is doing there."

Serum ferritin is created by splenic macrophages and hepatocytes. Also, Masterjohn is confusing serum ferritin with apoferritin throughout his piece, apparently not realizing what apoferritin is.

"It certainly isn’t there to carry iron around to your body."

Right, it's to sequester free radical iron not picked up by transferrin.

"Experiments in mice suggest that the liver does not contribute to serum ferritin"

In mice. We do not know that this is the case in people. Hepatocytes hold a massive amount of ferritin in humans and its the recycling plant for RBCs.

"We also know that ferritin contains light chains and heavy chains"

Yes, but this is like saying 'pepperoni pizza is delicious.' So what? He had an opportunity to explain the roles of each. Not really important for my protocol anyway.

"But without knowing the purpose of serum ferritin "

Apoferritin captures free radical / serum iron.

*Dr. Tomas Ganz discovered hepcidin, and I have as everyone knows obviously read most of his material in Pubmed on hepcidin and erythroferrone. "This is basic Ganz" means "this is described very well by the doctor who discovered how iron is regulated by the body in 2001."

 

[Jim Marlowe]

My suspicion was that I was taking fairly high dose Vitamin C amid the Covid madness. High dose vitamin C, high carnivore-based Keto, and low ceruloplasmin primed me for iron overload. Taking Vitamin C with food increases iron levels.

My Iron saturation was 29%, so it was fine. My ceruloplasmin was low at 18 mg-dl. I donated blood for 18 months as soon as I was eligible and schedule permitting. I felt great after each donation. I mean fantastic.
I've paused the blood donation because my ferritin got down to 11.
The strange thing is that I started supplementing copper in December 2022, 4 mg a day. I re-did the "Full Monty" (Morley Robbins - Root Cause Protocol Morley Robbins: How Balancing Copper, Iron, Magnesium and 1 Protein is the Solution that You're Looking For) labs this February (2024), and my ceruloplasmin was lower than before I started supplementing - at 14 mg-dl. So starting in February I started taking 8 mg copper per day (4mg, twice per day). Then I started going up to 12 mg for a while. I realize most people say 8 mg is the absolute max, but I have had no negative side effects. I want to repeat the Full Monty and see whether ceruloplasmin is up.
I have gone from eating Keto for 22 years to eating bioenergetic. That reduced my LDL without lowering by HDL or raising triglycerides. Unfortunately, my HbA1c went up during this time. I'm hoping that this is temporary. So for me the jury is still out on copper levels and HbA1c.
I think the Morley Robbins Root Cause approach make sense if you are high ferritin and low ceruloplasmin. I realize other people don't have that problem, but I did.

So Vitamin C increases absorption of non-heme iron. Therefore supplementation of Vitamin C with a high carnivore diet would not be the issue. But I ate vegetables too, so the Vitamin C could have been a factor. Here's Chris Masterjohn again. The link gets paywalled in about 36 hours.

https://open.substack.com/pub/chrismasterjohnphd/p/understanding-iron?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=per06

 

[FDV70]

So Vitamin C increases absorption of non-heme iron. Therefore supplementation of Vitamin C with a high carnivore diet would not be the issue.

Remember that because heme iron transport largely bypasses hepcidin, it will not be put into ferritin readily. Even women on no hormones who take heme iron end up with hemoglobins of 15 or 16 while ferritin languishes.