Libido and E2

[Logan24]

2 pumps twice daily of 200mg/ml applied to the scrotum. They did start me on 50mg DHEA but that’s it. Too early to tell much, it’s actually only been 5 days. I noticed a slight bump in libido but otherwise don’t feel much different yet.

I was actually beginning to feel a little better on injections right before I made the switch. They pulled my labs to get a baseline before beginning cream and my total was 1596 and free 27 at 34mg of cyp EOD. If I go back to injections in the future I will definitely switch to daily. Hopefully the cream will work good though. It’s pretty quick and easy to apply.

 

[Gman86]

Awesome, thanks for the protocol details. Hope things start improving. Seems like a lot of men are doing extremely well on creams applied to the scrotum lately, hopefully you’ll be no different.

Did you have E2 tested during those latest labs? And those labs were while on just test cyp right, no ai or HCG?

 

[Cataceous]

I just ran an unintentional experiment on this subject. While pausing hCG for a period I had undetectable estradiol for a couple months. This even with no AI. The only obvious side effect was a complete lack of libido. Sexual function and day/nocturnal erections were ok, but there was absolutely no desire to use them. It went on long enough that I began using estradiol/estriol cream. Within a few days libido returned.

 

[Logan24]

E2 was 43 at these labs which is consistent with my previous few labs. No AI for a couple of months and never any HCG. These labs were probably peak (if there is one on EOD) bc they were 24 hours post injection. Yeah if this doesn’t work I’m flying to TN to go see Dr. Nichols. I found this clinic through WorldLink website which is Rouzier’s training certification so I hope they know what they’re doing. They seem really good so far.

WorldLink Medical - Find Providers

 

[Logan24]

I just ran an unintentional experiment on this subject. While pausing hCG for a period I had undetectable estradiol for a couple months. This even with no AI. The only obvious side effect was a complete lack of libido. Sexual function and day/nocturnal erections were ok, but there was absolutely no desire to use them. It went on long enough that I began using estradiol/estriol cream. Within a few days libido returned.

Very interesting! I’m trying hard to completely ignore e2 going forward and just focus on optimizing free t.

 

[xqfq]

I just ran an unintentional experiment on this subject. While pausing hCG for a period I had undetectable estradiol for a couple months. This even with no AI. The only obvious side effect was a complete lack of libido. Sexual function and day/nocturnal erections were ok, but there was absolutely no desire to use them. It went on long enough that I began using estradiol/estriol cream. Within a few days libido returned.

I'm curious, what is your protocol here? And what's your SHBG?

My doctor switched me to EOD injections and I'm worried my E2 may have dropped too low as well! I'm getting labs back soon but I'm curious if you're on a frequent injection protocol.

 

[Cataceous]

I'm curious, what is your protocol here? And what's your SHBG?

My doctor switched me to EOD injections and I'm worried my E2 may have dropped too low as well! I'm getting labs back soon but I'm curious if you're on a frequent injection protocol.

This all occurred with daily propionate injections. Initially a low dose of 7 mg qd to see if I could get some HPTA activation with a SERM. But when I found estradiol was crashed I gradually increased it to 12 mg qd. This latter, corresponding to 100 mg T cypionate a week is the most testosterone I've ever taken. Leading to the question of SHBG...

Since starting TRT my SHBG has always been around 30 nMol/L, and never below 26. With the estradiol crash it dropped to 12, then to 10! So as would be expected, total serum testosterone is much lower for the same injected doses. With the next round of testing I am hoping to see the start of a rebound in SHBG now that estradiol is likely to at least be detectable.

 

[xqfq]

This all occurred with daily propionate injections. Initially a low dose of 7 mg qd to see if I could get some HPTA activation with a SERM. But when I found estradiol was crashed I gradually increased it to 12 mg qd. This latter, corresponding to 100 mg T cypionate a week is the most testosterone I've ever taken. Leading to the question of SHBG...

Since starting TRT my SHBG has always been around 30 nMol/L, and never below 26. With the estradiol crash it dropped to 12, then to 10! So as would be expected, total serum testosterone is much lower for the same injected doses. With the next round of testing I am hoping to see the start of a rebound in SHBG now that estradiol is likely to at least be detectable.

What do you think is the mechanism behind that SHBG crash? I would expect, if SHBG was crashed from a higher level of testosterone over a shorter period of time, that estradiol would rise and not drop.

 

[Cataceous]

What do you think is the mechanism behind that SHBG crash? I would expect, if SHBG was crashed from a higher level of testosterone over a shorter period of time, that estradiol would rise and not drop.

Estradiol is an important driver of SHBG production, so I assume the drop is almost entirely from the crashed estradiol.

 

[Vince Carter]

As an individual that's a fair assumption on your part for your own body, I can prove that wrong in my own physiology. Saying it an absolute sense there is misleading though.

 

[Cataceous]

As an individual that's a fair assumption on your part for your own body, I can prove that wrong in my own physiology. Saying it an absolute sense there is misleading though.

It is true in an absolute sense, as far as averages go. It's you who may be the exception.

"Oral but not transdermal E2 increased SHBG concentrations by 67-171% in the control group..."[1]

"Oral contraceptives containing ethinylestradiol can increase SHBG levels by 2- to 4-fold and decrease free testosterone concentrations by 40 to 80% in women."[2]

"Two hundred and fifty to 500 nmol/L 17 beta-estradiol and 500 nmol/L to 1 mumol/L testosterone increased SHBG levels intra- and extracellularly, but relative to control values, the increase was considerably greater inside the cells."[3]

"The secretion of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) by the human hepatocarcinoma cell line Hep G2 was increased significantly ... by estradiol (E2)..."[4]

 

[Vince Carter]

wow oral contraceptives...you're really reaching in to the depths to make your self feel better while making no sense at all with this:

It is true in an absolute sense, as far as averages go

This isn't PeakT, if you haven't noticed the difference.

 

[Cataceous]

wow oral contraceptives...you're really reaching in to the depths to make your self feel better while making no sense at all with this:

It is true in an absolute sense, as far as averages go

This isn't PeakT, if you haven't noticed the difference.

If you're saying that, in general, estrogens do not increase SHBG, then you are wrong.

 

[Gman86]

If you're saying that, in general, estrogens do not increase SHBG, then you are wrong.

Estrogens when administered exogenously most likely increase SHBG.

In my experience, however, endogenous estrogen, converted from testosterone, doesn’t seem to increase SHBG. And in 99.9% of cases here we’re going to be referring to endogenous estrogens. So technically, both of you are right.

I just looked back through 5 years of blood work, while getting blood work done roughly 5 times per year, and there seems to be no correlation with high E2 increasing SHBG, at least for me. I’ve had my SHBG at 44 when E2 was 71, and SHBG was 51 when E2 was 8. My SHBG seems to be much more correlated with my testosterone level. Higher the testosterone level, usually the lower my SHBG. And the only other thing that influences my SHBG seems to be exemestane. It tends to lower it, sometimes pretty significantly. While using 1/4 tab of exemestane my SHBG was 36. I’ve never had it that low while off of exemestane.

 

[Cataceous]

Estrogens when administered exogenously most likely increase SHBG.

In my experience, however, endogenous estrogen, converted from testosterone, doesn’t seem to increase SHBG. And in 99.9% of cases here we’re going to be referring to endogenous estrogens. So technically, both of you are right.
...

The liver is not differentiating between sources of estrogens. What you're observing is that androgens have a suppressive effect on SHBG. The relative magnitudes of estrogen stimulation versus androgen suppression may indeed be quite variable between individuals.

 

[Gman86]

Ya everyone is definitely very different. I see what you’re saying. So say if my E2 was 71, without my testosterone being elevated as well, I would most likely see my SHBG go higher than my baseline, due to the elevated E2.

So seems like, at least for me, E2 elevating SHBG is a mute point, due to anytime my E2 elevating, my testosterone is obviously going to be going up as well and counteracting whatever elevation E2 is causing. Maybe others are different. But doesn’t seem like most men are that different to be honest. Seems like, for most, elevated testosterone leads to lowering of SHBG, regardless of their E2 elevating as well.

You’re still most likely right though. Exogenous estrogen will most likely elevate SHBG. Makes sense though that elevating E2 without concurrently elevating testosterone will lead to higher SHBG levels.

 

[Cataceous]

... So say if my E2 was 71, without my testosterone being elevated as well, I would most likely see my SHBG go higher than my baseline, due to the elevated E2.
...

Exactly. In the vast majority of guys, some combination of reducing androgens and increasing estrogens will lead to higher SHBG. Of course the potential for feminization puts a limit on how far anyone might be willing to take this, except MTF transsexuals.

... Exogenous estrogen will most likely elevate SHBG. Makes sense though that elevating E2 without concurrently elevating testosterone will lead to higher SHBG levels.

Yes, and having the converse—undetectable estradiol and only modestly lower testosterone—is why I concluded that crashed estradiol was largely responsible for my unprecedented low SHBG. The average guy may not stay crashed long enough to see this effect. But for some reason my extra-testicular aromatase has stayed low for a prolonged period.

 

[Logan24]

Just a quick status update. Been on the cream for about 5 weeks now. Definitely feel much more stable and have noticed a significant improvement in libido and consistency of morning erections. I’ll have labs done in another couple of weeks but I’m guessing my test levels are a bit lower on the cream. I don’t care what the numbers are bc I feel good but just a guess. Seems like body comp may have taken a slight step back since starting cream which is part of the reason I think overall test levels may be a bit lower. I’m ok with that since my body fat is pretty low but something I’ll want to monitor.

 

[M.J]

i Had the highest libido in my life in HCG monotherapy when I ran test it was T= 16 and E=22.

Even now T = between 21-26 nmol/l
E= between 15 and 20 pg
I am not getting it that crazy libido, libido is good during honey moon period and maybe during normal times not bad, but higher T for me is not the key for great libido i guess it’s the balance. Beside E and T maybe even other hormone generated by HCG are related.

Currently I lowered my AI to test high estrogen ranges.

But again in HCG I didn’t wait for 40 days for my body to get used to these levels ! It was I guess end of first week or second.