Less than 50 mg of T per week

[audiocide]

You need to provide the details for this to be meaningful. If you tested at trough with weekly injections then this isn't unusual. In this situation you'd have a weekly peak of 2,000-3,000 ng/dL, which isn't remotely physiological.

On free testosterone, I'll go a step further and say that if you're testing with a standard immunoassay-based test then the results are virtually useless. You're better off measuring SHBG along with total testosterone so you can use the Vermeulen calculation to estimate free T.

This was one instance where I was injecting a 250mg Sustanon amp every 4 days. (Aspen brand, pharma).

My total T was out of range at >15.00ng/mL, with the lab range being 2.49 to 8.36.
Free T was 33.9pg/mL out of 4.5 - 40.0.
SHBG was very high at 81.6nmol/L; 18.3 - 54.1.

I got blood drawn upon waking with an empty stomach, but I am not familiar with the methodology, or what the Vermeulen calculation is.

And yes, at this time I was trying to get beyond therapeutic range.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

This was one instance where I was injecting a 250mg Sustanon amp every 4 days. (Aspen brand, pharma).

My total T was out of range at >15.00ng/mL, with the lab range being 2.49 to 8.36.
Free T was 33.9pg/mL out of 4.5 - 40.0.
SHBG was very high at 81.6nmol/L; 18.3 - 54.1.

I got blood drawn upon waking with an empty stomach, but I am not familiar with the methodology, or what the Vermeulen calculation is.

And yes, at this time I was trying to get beyond therapeutic range.

Seems like a disconnect from @Cataceous ' request for more info.

You said that you have to take 200mg/week to get above 1000 Total Testosterone:

How often do you inject? Is it a single 200mg injection per week?

When do you get your labs drawn in relation to when you take your shots? (This is not about morning/empty stomach.) The standard procedure is at trough, the day of your injection before you take it, when you are at your lowest blood level of testosterone.

Vermeulen calculator: Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator

 

[audiocide]

Seems like a disconnect from @Cataceous ' request for more info.

You said that you have to take 200mg/week to get above 1000 Total Testosterone:

How often do you inject? Is it a single 200mg injection per week?

With sporadic tests, usually when I had blood drawn for other purposes, and my normal schedule of an 250mg amp every 11 to 14 days, I test between 500 to 800.

When I get everything else in order, I am planning to get levels checked after a couple months of doing 250mg/wk exactly. But I thought you were supposed to check at peak levels, i.e. 48 hours after a shot of Sust.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

With sporadic tests, usually when I had blood drawn for other purposes, and my normal schedule of an 250mg amp every 11 to 14 days, I test between 500 to 800.

When I get everything else in order, I am planning to get levels checked after a couple months of doing 250mg/wk exactly. But I thought you were supposed to check at peak levels, i.e. 48 hours after a shot of Sust.

250mg every 14 days is equivalent to 125mg/week.

Your information is too inconsistent to draw any kind of conclusion except that we have no idea of what your levels actually are on a consistent basis.

I use T cyp and prop. Sorry I am not knowledgeable enough about Sustanon to chart a projected curve of blood level or offer further thoughts on it

 

[audiocide]

I use T cyp and prop. Sorry I am not knowledgeable enough about Sustanon to chart a projected curve of blood level or offer further thoughts on it

Sustanon is a mix of 4 different esters, as I'm sure you know. I know that it peaks between 24 to 48 hours, both from what I've read, and from personal experince.

So I am supposed to get tested at a trough. But if I was pinning smaller doses more frequently, wouldn't that negate the purpose of that?

One last thing I'd like to get your opinions on is SHBG. I've heard high levels of this is undesirable. Is there a way to control it?

 

[andrepohlann]

So dropping to from 10mg to 8.5mg daily got rid of your early morning wakeups, moodiness, etc.?
I ask because I've found that even 1mg more or less can make subjective difference on daily basis.

I compare 10mg/d with 30mg 2 times/week. Kinetics might play a role too.

 

[Lowtuk]

How is everyone still doing in their 50/60mg a week dosage?

I’m trying to lower mine as I’m really suffering with stomach fat and not being able to reduce it regardless of diet and amount of exercise.

I was started in 250mg a week of sustanon and I’ve come down to 75mg split 25mg M/W/F.

Looking to make this 50mg at 25mg Mon/Thurs.

Are people still feeling good at the low doses?

Anyone experienced stubborn belly fat before?

 

[andrepohlann]

Try it. I am on 7,5 per day. Perfectly fine. Total 500s.

 

[Cataceous]

How is everyone still doing in their 50/60mg a week dosage?
...

Looking to make this 50mg at 25mg Mon/Thurs.

Are people still feeling good at the low doses?

Anyone experienced stubborn belly fat before?

I am a proponent of using the lowest effective dose, and I do well on the equivalent of 44 mg testosterone cypionate per week. However, I take my testosterone as daily injections of a propionate/enanthate blend. Although my average serum testosterone is around 500 ng/dL, daily peak levels are more like 700 ng/dL. There is some evidence that daily peak levels contribute to the benefits we receive from testosterone.

With that as background, I would have some concern about the pattern of your serum testosterone on 25 mg Sustanon twice a week. It's possible you would have pretty low levels in the day preceding each injection. This may or may not be a problem for you. It's just something to keep in mind.

How does your estradiol compare to your testosterone? A low ratio could contribute to body composition issues.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

Usually around here people reference the gross amount of T including the ester (100mg weekly in your case).
However, it is good to know the actual amount of T net of ester (70mg weekly / 10mg daily in your case) when comparing your dose to what a healthy young male produces naturally on a daily basis (average of 7mg per day).

My problem with the statement of what a healthy young male produces is that you don't find knowledgeable doctors prescribing 7 to 9 mg, daily. Not Dr. Lipschultz, Dr. Rouzier, Dr. McLain, Dr. Nichols, Dr. Saya, Dr. Morgentaler... I'll exclude TRT clinics, since many do start at 200 mg per week.

I've mentioned that on T-nation.com, there's a physician who's on T and prescribes. He's open minded and intelligent. In his experience he's found most men respond to a weekly dose of between 140 mg & 200 mg, weekly or split into 2 doses. He was asked if he'd ever start a patient on 50 mg per week and he said 'No', though he qualified his answer, saying if that's what a patient wants to try, he'd go along, but those who tried that low a dose soon were asking for an increase.

With all that said, I'm an outlier. Currently doing 125 mg weekly/Test E, IM. I feel over stimulated. Sleep, which is an ongoing issue, isn't good because of the over stimulation. I have an intense libido, especially in the morning, but no erectile function. I could split the dose or even go to 3 doses per week. I've always avoided using an ai, maybe to my detriment. This might be a workable dose but, yes, some tweaking is needed.

 

[Willyt]

My problem with the statement of what a healthy young male produces is that you don't find knowledgeable doctors prescribing 7 to 9 mg, daily. Not Dr. Lipschultz, Dr. Rouzier, Dr. McLain, Dr. Nichols, Dr. Saya, Dr. Morgentaler... I'll exclude TRT clinics, since many do start at 200 mg per week.

I've mentioned that on T-nation.com, there's a physician who's on T and prescribes. He's open minded and intelligent. In his experience he's found most men respond to a weekly dose of between 140 mg & 200 mg, weekly or split into 2 doses. He was asked if he'd ever start a patient on 50 mg per week and he said 'No', though he qualified his answer, saying if that's what a patient wants to try, he'd go along, but those who tried that low a dose soon were asking for an increase.

With all that said, I'm an outlier. Currently doing 125 mg weekly/Test E, IM. I feel over stimulated. Sleep, which is an ongoing issue, isn't good because of the over stimulation. I have an intense libido, especially in the morning, but no erectile function. I could split the dose or even go to 3 doses per week. I've always avoided using an ai, maybe to my detriment. This might be a workable dose but, yes, some tweaking is needed.

The one piece of advice I wish I had known before starting TRT years ago is to start low and work your way up gradually instead of the reverse.

Overstimulation from supra-physiological doses is common from everything I've read here and experienced firsthand. All of these side effects are basically your body rebelling against abnormally high levels of T. Early on I recall some guy here talking about the body being tuned like a thermostat, constantly trying to regulate back to its baseline.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

The one piece of advice I wish I had known before starting TRT years ago is to start low and work your way up gradually instead of the reverse.

Overstimulation from supra-physiological doses is common from everything I've read here and experienced firsthand. All of these side effects are basically your body rebelling against abnormally high levels of T. Early on I recall some guy here talking about the body being tuned like a thermostat, constantly trying to regulate back to its baseline.

I always find contradictions. There are men who do fine on 200 mg, per week, some even higher dosing, then those who are optimized at less than 100 mg or lower, per week. We can all agree it's not about the numbers but, as I always say, how a man feels and functions. Before I give up on T, I'm going to try 40 mg IM 2X weekly, giving it a couple of months. Admittedly, that might not be the dose and I might need to go lower or to dailies. After 11 years, I owe that to myself and my urologist.

 

[Willyt]

I always find contradictions. There are men who do fine on 200 mg, per week, some even higher dosing, then those who are optimized at less than 100 mg or lower, per week. We can all agree it's not about the numbers but, as I always say, how a man feels and functions. Before I give up on T, I'm going to try 40 mg IM 2X weekly, giving it a couple of months. Admittedly, that might not be the dose and I might need to go lower or to dailies. After 11 years, I owe that to myself and my urologist.

You've got it right - its about how you feel taking into account your priorities. There are inevitable side effects when you push the envelope of what the body is designed to handle. Some guys are willing to do that because they prioritize athletics performance and aesthetics. Other prioritize sleep and mental well being, etc. or more of a balance.

You can't worry about what other guys say they are doing. Look at the weekly doses offered by Xyosted based on the studies that @madman often refers to: 50 mg, 75mg or 100mg. Even 75mg can put some guys' peak well above top end of range. Some can tolerate large amounts of T more than others.

 

[Cataceous]

My problem with the statement of what a healthy young male produces is that you don't find knowledgeable doctors prescribing 7 to 9 mg, daily. Not Dr. Lipschultz, Dr. Rouzier, Dr. McLain, Dr. Nichols, Dr. Saya, Dr. Morgentaler...

That's basically argument from authority. They may simply be responding to the demands of their customers, who by and large have more-is-better thinking. I see that @Willyt has already mentioned Xyosted. Its success dispels the notion that supra-physiological doses are needed to ameliorate symptoms of hypogonadism. The main thing I object to is starting new patients on 100+ mg TC/week when many will be harmed by this practice.

There is an evolution-based argument in favor of targeting average serum levels for healthy young men, which can be the 600-700 ng/dL figure of earlier decades, predating the recent decline. The reasoning is that nature had selected those levels as optimal for reproductive success. Reproductive success is then suggested to be a decent proxy for overall success in life; you have the resources and skills to attract a mate and ensure the survival of the resulting offspring. So in the end this gets you back to those physiological doses of testosterone, around 3-9 mg/day.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

You've got it right - its about how you feel taking into account your priorities. There are inevitable side effects when you push the envelope of what the body is designed to handle. Some guys are willing to do that because they prioritize athletics performance and aesthetics. Other prioritize sleep and mental well being, etc. or more of a balance.

You can't worry about what other guys say they are doing. Look at the weekly doses offered by Xyosted based on the studies that @madman often refers to: 50 mg, 75mg or 100mg. Even 75mg can put some guys' peak well above top end of range. Some can tolerate large amounts of T more than others.

For me, it's about mental health and sexual function. Over the years, my shoulders have gotten broader, which even my wife noticed and she doesn't notice much about me. And I'm strong. Good enough.
:

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

That's basically argument from authority. They may simply be responding to the demands of their customers, who by and large have more-is-better thinking. I see that @Willyt has already mentioned Xyosted. Its success dispels the notion that supra-physiological doses are needed to ameliorate symptoms of hypogonadism. The main thing I object to is starting new patients on 100+ mg TC/week when many will be harmed by this practice.

There is an evolution-based argument in favor of targeting average serum levels for healthy young men, which can be the 600-700 ng/dL figure of earlier decades, predating the recent decline. The reasoning is that nature had selected those levels as optimal for reproductive success. Reproductive success is then suggested to be a decent proxy for overall success in life; you have the resources and skills to attract a mate and ensure the survival of the resulting offspring. So in the end this gets you back to those physiological doses of testosterone, around 3-9 mg/day.

Your reasoning and arguments are sound, coupled with your experience of daily micro dosing. I'm aware that I've contradicted myself many times on dosing. Basically, been all over the place. Low dosing or micro dosing, whether E3.5D, EOD or daily, is the last place for me to go.

 

[Vince]

Keep It Up: The Power of Precision Medicine to Conquer Low T and Revitalize Your Life! Hardcover October 8, 2013 by Florence Comite - I read this book a couple of years ago and thought it was really good. I read the kindle version. She talks about men feeling their best, when having their testosterone levels, at the levels they were, when they were young. She believes young men should have their levels tested, so when they get older they know what to shoot for.