Labs from EOD Protocol

[GreenMachineX]

It very well may. Dhea interacts with aromatase and 5ar. If you apply on scrotal tissue then there will be an overwhelming conversion percentage into androgens vs estrogens.

I'm applying on shoulders and arms. No way I'll apply on scrotum lol.

 

[GreenMachineX]

@Cataceous
After a little experimentation, I believe I was right that I wasn't using enough testosterone for when I dropped to 16mg eod. I've increased to 18-19mg eod and now sleeping 6-6.5 hours straight, whereas when I was using 16mg eod for those couple weeks, 4 hours of unrestful sleep. It was awful. Not only that, but I was achy and an emotional train wreck.

Maybe due to my very low shbg, but I respond to dose changes very fast, as well as anything I take or use. DHEA will bloat me overnight. I'm sure I'm an outlier with this, but nothing about my TRT results or experience have been normal. I know 22mg eod brought my hgb up to 18.1 and hct to 51.9, so I'm hoping that that was the top it was going to go to, and not keep rising. Hopeful 18mg eod is low enough to keep my hct to low 17's or even lower. Any thoughts?

 

[Cataceous]

I think you need to do what works, but if you still end up with high hemoglobin and hematocrit then the dose should come down. One hypothesis is that lowering the testosterone dose while preserving peak levels could preserve the benefits and ease the side effects. Although the idea is unproven, I'd say that the apparent success of Natesto provides indirect support.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I think you need to do what works, but if you still end up with high hemoglobin and hematocrit then the dose should come down. One hypothesis is that lowering the testosterone dose while preserving peak levels could preserve the benefits and ease the side effects. Although the idea is unproven, I'd say that the apparent success of Natesto provides indirect support for the idea.

Preserving the peaks as in maybe once per week injections might be a better solution as opposed to eod, in my case? If that's what you mean, the first go around I did with testosterone was 120mg once per week and I think hct capped at 51 or 52. I never really thought about this because it was so long ago and that doctor freaked out about those hct levels. Maybe 100mg once per week is the answer...

 

[Cataceous]

Though some guys do better with less frequent injections, this is uncommon and less natural. Furthermore, if you keep the peaks physiological then the troughs on weekly injections are likely to put one into hypogonadal territory. It's natural for us to have low levels for part of each day, but it's problematic when these stretch out to multiple days. Peak preservation works best with daily injections, though it might yield acceptable results with EOD dosing. Rather than reduce the frequency of injections one introduces propionate to be used with the longer ester. With this extra variable the peak levels may be preserved at lower total testosterone doses.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Though some guys do better with less frequent injections, this is uncommon and less natural. Furthermore, if you keep the peaks physiological then the troughs on weekly injections are likely to put one into hypogonadal territory. It's natural for us to have low levels for part of each day, but it's problematic when these stretch out to multiple days. Peak preservation works best with daily injections, though it might yield acceptable results with EOD dosing. Rather than reduce the frequency of injections one introduces propionate to be used with the longer ester. With this extra variable the peak levels may be preserved at lower total testosterone doses.

Ohhhhh, gotcha. I misunderstood. There's no way I'll get test prop from my doctor nor can I afford something like Defy or a clinic like that. After a few more weeks at this dose (or maybe 20mg eod?), if it doesn't work, I'll try daily injections at 8mg ED. Does that sound about right given the history I've laid out?

 

[Cataceous]

Unless you absorb your cypionate faster than average I'd expect that your results would be pretty similar between injecting X mg EOD and X/2 mg daily. That is, your testosterone levels on EOD dosing should already be pretty stable. The main benefit of daily dosing is in mimicking natural testosterone variation, which requires a testosterone blend containing a shorter ester. That's too bad your doctor wouldn't consider propionate. It not as though it's even off-label.

 

[GreenMachineX]

What premade blends contain test prop that doctors surely prescribe?

 

[Cataceous]

The compounding pharmacies offer a blend that's 80% cypionate and 20% propionate. Example. In my experience this isn't nearly enough propionate. For me 55% cypionate and 45% propionate give reasonable diurnal variation.

 

[GreenMachineX]

The compounding pharmacies offer a blend that's 80% cypionate and 20% propionate. Example. In my experience this isn't nearly enough propionate. For me 55% cypionate and 45% propionate give reasonable diurnal variation.

Gotcha, thanks. I'm starting to wonder if I can get away with 20mg eod. If 22mg eod had me at 51.9 hct, I wonder if 20mg could have me at 50. Still getting 6 hours of sleep, even taking extra melatonin at 4am, can't fall back asleep. Gonna have to try something different after a while, as my motivation to workout is also gone, achy (especially feet and all previous injuries I've ever had), and absolutely zero libido. Anxiety and mood are pretty well controlled though.

 

[ivkonst2017]

The compounding pharmacies offer a blend that's 80% cypionate and 20% propionate. Example. In my experience this isn't nearly enough propionate. For me 55% cypionate and 45% propionate give reasonable diurnal variation.

What benefits do you have of adding the propionate? I see some people on the forum using propionate alongside enanthate/cypionate

 

[Cataceous]

What benefits do you have of adding the propionate? I see some people on the forum using propionate alongside enanthate/cypionate

For me the most apparent thing is somewhat better sleep. Any other effects are pretty subtle—I thought I felt better overall after the switch, but can't be sure. I've hypothesized that this kind of blend may be helpful to those who are unable to settle on a sufficient dose without getting side effects. It's possible that some of the benefits of TRT are provided by daily peak levels, while some of the side effects are more a function of average levels. If so then imitating normal diurnal variation with a propionate blend allows a lower overall dose, hopefully maintaining the good things and reducing the bad. Of course this hypothesis needs to be tested. The success of Natesto is indirect evidence that there's something to the idea.

 

[ivkonst2017]

For me the most apparent thing is somewhat better sleep. Any other effects are pretty subtle—I thought I felt better overall after the switch, but can't be sure. I've hypothesized that this kind of blend may be helpful to those who are unable to settle on a sufficient dose without getting side effects. It's possible that some of the benefits of TRT are provided by daily peak levels, while some of the side effects are more a function of average levels. If so then imitating normal diurnal variation with a propionate blend allows a lower overall dose, hopefully maintaining the good things and reducing the bad. Of course this hypothesis needs to be tested. The success of Natesto is indirect evidence that there's something to the idea.

I transferred from sustanon to enanthate 9 weeks ago. I felt good in week 5, but now I feel bad and I feel bad in a very specific way. Although Im doing now IM 2x65mg weekly and my total test last time I checked was 1450, albumin - 45, SHBG - 30(I know a bit high) I experience VERY SIMILAR negative to the last summer when I tried enanthate, I was doing daily sub q and my test levels were around 1000.

The negative I experience is APATHY and SLUGGISHESS. Hard to explain, but every time I've tried a protocol on this enanthate and one time I tried 8 weeks on UGL cypionate(no pharma cyp here) I feel these negatives. Very different than how you are supposed to feel on testosterone, right?

Only on sustanon I have felt well being, a sense of joy and also inner motivation and drive. Why I wanted to try enanthate again and got off sustanon? - Too much injections.

Sub q seems doesnt work for me(only the first 3 months did until my belly became full of nodules) and I need to inject sustanon either daily or EOD to feel stable. Even on EOD the first weeks I feel huge rush after injection and on the injection day. AND OFTEN IM INJECTIONS SUCK. Scar tissue builds up, need to use at least 2-3 pairs of muscles and so on. Also this shallow IM doesnt work for me, maybe because Im around 25 percent body fat. But to get good absorbtion and levels I wanted to inject deep into the muscle. On shoulders I use 3/4 inch needles. on legs and ventriglutes - 1 inch needles.

But seemingly I feel better on the sustanon. Now I will not give up on the enanthate so quickly. I will lower my dose and I will order from abroad different pharma enanthate with different oil(castor). The enanthate I use now is with olive oil. Also on enanthate I have better sleep and better apetite control, on sustanon Ive got hugr apetite and fatten up( I normally have issues with that, just the sustanon makes that a bit worse).

Do you think the oil my play something in the sluggishness or apathy I feel on this product, or more likely the sustanon with the multi esters somehow stimulates my nervous system and this results in a sense of well being?

 

[Cataceous]

...
Do you think the oil my play something in the sluggishness or apathy I feel on this product, or more likely the sustanon with the multi esters somehow stimulates my nervous system and this results in a sense of well being?

With daily or EOD injections of Sustanon you're probably getting relatively little variation in serum testosterone. The propionate provides the fastest drop, but its proportion is pretty small, 12% by ester weight. In contrast, twice-weekly dosing of enanthate or cypionate can lead to pretty significant swings, with peaks 50% higher than troughs. I expect this contributes to the qualitative differences.

 

[ivkonst2017]

With daily or EOD injections of Sustanon you're probably getting relatively little variation in serum testosterone. The propionate provides the fastest drop, but its proportion is pretty small, 12% by ester weight. In contrast, twice-weekly dosing of enanthate or cypionate can lead to pretty significant swings, with peaks 50% higher than troughs. I expect this contributes to the qualitative differences.

To be honest the blood work I've done and also the way I feel shows the opposite. On EOD sustanon I've tested a few times 2-3 hours after injection vs before injection, and it was something like 1500ng/dl vs 1000-1100. At least 400ng/dl difference on EOD protocol.

On the enanthate last week I completed blood work 24 hours after injection and just before the next one, difference was 100ng/dl and even before injection my test levels showed higher. Also in the last 3 weeks on the enanthate 2 times a week protocol although feeling far from perfect, I feel absolutely stable and do not feel any fluctuation regarding injection frequency. Neither the blood work nor the way I feel suggest on 2 times a week enanthate there is a peak and trough in serum blood levels of testosterone. But the thing is I feel sluggish, lethargic and apathetic on the enanthate.

 

[Cataceous]

To be honest the blood work I've done and also the way I feel shows the opposite. On EOD sustanon I've tested a few times 2-3 hours after injection vs before injection, and it was something like 1500ng/dl vs 1000-1100. At least 400ng/dl difference on EOD protocol.

On the enanthate last week I completed blood work 24 hours after injection and just before the next one, difference was 100ng/dl and even before injection my test levels showed higher. Also in the last 3 weeks on the enanthate 2 times a week protocol although feeling far from perfect, I feel absolutely stable and do not feel any fluctuation regarding injection frequency. Neither the blood work nor the way I feel suggest on 2 times a week enanthate there is a peak and trough in serum blood levels of testosterone. But the thing is I feel sluggish, lethargic and apathetic on the enanthate.

I'll have to backtrack some on EOD Sustanon. Your results are pretty consistent with theory, at least when the phenylpropionate ester is assigned a half-life of only 1.5 days. In this case the oscillations are getting close in size to what's predicted for twice-weekly injections of enanthate/cypionate. However, at almost twice the frequency they are arguably closer to a normal diurnal rhythm. We might posit that with twice-weekly enanthate the longer times at alternating higher and lower serums levels are less natural and more of a problem.

Your results with enanthate are harder to understand, to the point that I'd wonder if they are repeatable—lab error, etc. A trough measurement should not be higher than other parts of the cycle.

Given your apparent sensitivity to the timing of your testosterone fluctuations I think a good protocol to test would be one that mimics a normal diurnal rhythm. This can be done by tuning a blend of propionate and a longer ester for daily injections. This may not be practical for you if you can't obtain propionate. But I do think you could learn something from such an experiment.

 

[ivkonst2017]

Your results with enanthate are harder to understand, to the point that I'd wonder if they are repeatable—lab error, etc. A trough measurement should not be higher than other parts of the cycle.

Given your apparent sensitivity to the timing of your testosterone fluctuations I think a good protocol to test would be one that mimics a normal diurnal rhythm. This can be done by tuning a blend of propionate and a longer ester for daily injections. This may not be practical for you if you can't obtain propionate. But I do think you could learn something from such an experiment.

As for the enanthate, I will test again in Wednesday morning just before injection and I plan to reduce dose afterwards. Do you think it's possible I'm just very stable on 2 times a week injection and the 100ng/dl difference may be just a fluctuation that has nothing to do with the protocol?

According to the propionate - I have no access to pharmaceutical, nor a compounding pharmacy that can mix it. If I put ampules in a sterile vial from both types I guess it will not be very fluid, right?

Also comes the issue that I will need to inject it daily in a muscle and the smallest needle I can use for IM with my BF percentage is 27g 3/4 and I use that only for the shoulders, for all sites on the legs where I have more fat I use 1 inch needles.

 

[Cataceous]

As for the enanthate, I will test again in Wednesday morning just before injection and I plan to reduce dose afterwards. Do you think it's possible I'm just very stable on 2 times a week injection and the 100ng/dl difference may be just a fluctuation that has nothing to do with the protocol?

According to the propionate - I have no access to pharmaceutical, nor a compounding pharmacy that can mix it. If I put ampules in a sterile vial from both types I guess it will not be very fluid, right?

Also comes the issue that I will need to inject it daily in a muscle and the smallest needle I can use for IM with my BF percentage is 27g 3/4 and I use that only for the shoulders, for all sites on the legs where I have more fat I use 1 inch needles.

If your enanthate is a conventional formulation that includes benzyl alcohol then I wouldn't expect such stability on twice-weekly dosing. It would imply you have very slow absorption, for some reason.

I mix enanthate and propionate from difference sources in separate sterile vials. It shouldn't usually cause any problems.

 

[ivkonst2017]

If your enanthate is a conventional formulation that includes benzyl alcohol then I wouldn't expect such stability on twice-weekly dosing. It would imply you have very slow absorption, for some reason.

I mix enanthate and propionate from difference sources in separate sterile vials. It shouldn't usually cause any problems.

As much as Im aware it is a standard pharmaceutical enanthate. By the way now I ordered from another place, different brand which is expensive like hell, but I want to just switch for it briefly for the experiment. Im so sensitive that I can hope a different oil can make me feel in a different way. Some bro science bodybuilders claim oil can have a huge impact on how a testosterone product works. I wonder is it possible I feel the sustanon partly so well because of the peanut oil, that a lot of people have bad reactions to.

As for the mix I do not understand how you mix the cypionate with propionate, or you do not mix them and inject them separately? My idea was whether there is a way to do something like a sustanon, but only from propionate and enanthate, so I have both of them in a single solution and with a single shot. But according to my physics knowledge you cannot just poor the ampules of both kinds in a single vial and expect a homogenous mix. I think in USA only compounding pharmacies make that, and here in Europe at least from my country I do not have access to such a pharmacy that will be willing to ship testosterone in a different country. Of course on the bodybuilding sites there are UGL mixes like that, some of them are very credible with decent reputation, but still Im very skeptical towards all non-pharma stuff. And again even the propionate I can get is only UGL.

It is quite crappy here because for example I live in Eastern Europe but cannot order test from Germany with my prescription, they want a prescription by a German doctor. But with other types of medications you can do that, b12 shots for example...

 

[JA Battle]

As much as Im aware it is a standard pharmaceutical enanthate. By the way now I ordered from another place, different brand which is expensive like hell, but I want to just switch for it briefly for the experiment. Im so sensitive that I can hope a different oil can make me feel in a different way. Some bro science bodybuilders claim oil can have a huge impact on how a testosterone product works. I wonder is it possible I feel the sustanon partly so well because of the peanut oil, that a lot of people have bad reactions to.

As for the mix I do not understand how you mix the cypionate with propionate, or you do not mix them and inject them separately? My idea was whether there is a way to do something like a sustanon, but only from propionate and enanthate, so I have both of them in a single solution and with a single shot. But according to my physics knowledge you cannot just poor the ampules of both kinds in a single vial and expect a homogenous mix. I think in USA only compounding pharmacies make that, and here in Europe at least from my country I do not have access to such a pharmacy that will be willing to ship testosterone in a different country. Of course on the bodybuilding sites there are UGL mixes like that, some of them are very credible with decent reputation, but still Im very skeptical towards all non-pharma stuff. And again even the propionate I can get is only UGL.

It is quite crappy here because for example I live in Eastern Europe but cannot order test from Germany with my prescription, they want a prescription by a German doctor. But with other types of medications you can do that, b12 shots for example...

I inject mine separately however if you want to be injecting .5mg dosage increments you will need to buy the necessary items from Amazon to do this dilution into new vials.