Is the feeling of "well being" on TRT, dosage dependent?

[Gman86]

Ya I’ve had sensitive nipples for up to a week before from just fluctuating levels. I’ve experienced sensitive nipples where I started to get gyno, so I luckily know the difference. Was in HCG mono at the time. There’s a big difference between sens nipples from fluctuating levels and sens nipples where it will lead to gyno forming. Fluctuating levels usually lasts a few days, up to a week at most for me. When I was on HCG mono they were more sens, for weeks on end. And the sensitivity was accompanied by extreme itchiness. To the point where I would scratch them until they bleed, and I had to put tape over them so they wouldn’t rub against my clothing. So that’s pretty much how I personally can tell the difference between sensitivity I should worry about and sensitive I don’t worry about.

And anastrozole is strong stuff. I had my E2 go from 80’s to almost tanked on 0.5mg/ week

 

[TucsonJJ]

Just being on TRT can cause increased nipple sensitivity, may have nothing to do with estrogen levels.

Got it... but my nipples were very sensitive for a few months BEFORE starting TRT... estrogen was 39.
New labs, my Free T went from 5.2 to 11.0... 5 weeks... I am stoked. Estrogen 17... probably due to that .125 anastrozole I took only a few days before the labs?
And my nipples still have some sensitivity... not much though... thx!

 

[Roadkill]

What is your protocol? For me to get those levels, I need to inject 70 mg of testosterone cypionate twice weekly and 500 iu of hcg twice weekly. Of course it’s different from person to person.

What days do you inject on?

 

[TucsonJJ]

I was doing 3 days, but at 100mg a week... it was a bit of a hassle... now doing M and F, 50mg each.

 

[Vince]

What days do you inject on?

When I did twice weekly, I injected Monday morning and Thursday afternoon. Now I do daily injections.

 

[TucsonJJ]

When I did twice weekly, I injected Monday morning and Thursday afternoon. Now I do daily injections.

But that is for keeping estradiol down... yes? Does it help reduce DHT too?
My estradiol is low now... but maybe only due to one-time AI of .125... before labs... IF my e2 spikes next labs... I think I'll increase frequency of pins... good point! Thanks!

 

[Vince]

But that is for keeping estradiol down... yes? Does it help reduce DHT too?
My estradiol is low now... but maybe only due to one-time AI of .125... before labs... IF my e2 spikes next labs... I think I'll increase frequency of pins... good point! Thanks!

I went to daily injections to control my hct. For me it works but it doesn’t work for everyone. I haven’t had to donate for years now.

 

[TucsonJJ]

I see. I had been donating regularly, 3-4x/year, as it is REALLY healthy... a pretty highly regarded ChiroDoc, Jonathan Wright (not sure if he is still alive), maintained that giving blood 1-2X/year reduced both heart attack and stroke risk by 70%...
I have not seen my recent labs yet, only got a few numbers from the office gal... hope MY HCT is still decent... it never got very low, even with the donations... 48.6 in last labs before the latest ones...

 

[Gman86]

I see. I had been donating regularly, 3-4x/year, as it is REALLY healthy... a pretty highly regarded ChiroDoc, Jonathan Wright (not sure if he is still alive), maintained that giving blood 1-2X/year reduced both heart attack and stroke risk by 70%...
I have not seen my recent labs yet, only got a few numbers from the office gal... hope MY HCT is still decent... it never got very low, even with the donations... 48.6 in last labs before the latest ones...

As far as my understanding goes, for most guys donating 3-4x/ year is way too much, and would tank most men’s iron stores, especially if they’re not on HRT. I’ve tanked mine before from just getting labs done too much, and iron stores are a tricky thing. Extremely easy and quick to deplete, and take forever to build back up. Donating blood is definitely a great way for men to avoid an early grave. There’s 2 main reasons that women live longer than men, that I can think of. One is that iron overload/ toxicity is extremely harmful to the human body, and until menopause, women don’t have to worry about this. They naturally avoid iron overload via their periods every month. Men don’t have a way to decrease iron stores. They potentially build up and up overtime. So a great way to get on a women’s level is to donate blood. I would imagine once a year should be sufficient. If on HRT, possibly twice per year. The other main reason they live longer, from my understanding is estrogen. Estrogen is extremely cardio protective. Yes they lose estrogen during and after menopause, but up until then I would imagine all that estrogen is protecting their cardiovascular system to a great degree. So a great way to get on their level is to get on HRT and make sure E2 is in a healthy range. The other reason I can think of that would make donating blood beneficial is that when u lose blood, ur body has to create new RBC’s, and new RBC’s are nice and flexible and can bend and flex in ur blood vessels and have a much lesser chance of getting stuck. Opposed to old RBC’s, which tend to be stiffer and more rigid and don’t flex and bend as much while flowing through blood vessels and have a higher chance of getting stuck and causing a heart attack and/ or stroke

 

[TucsonJJ]

Interesting... well, he did say, once or twice... I decided to up that to 3-4X/yr... I will start requesting that my iron levels be checked on every blood test... do you think iron supplementation would take care of the deficit... if low... or is that not effective?

New question for you... I have some 10mg pregnenolone and ordered some 10mg DHEA... I read here and elsewhere it is a very good idea to supplement these while on TRT... do you agree? Is pregnenolone OK if taken for awhile without DHEA? Thanks for the help!

 

[Jason Sypolt]

Your feeling of well-being is ultimately dependent on your state of mind. Your hormones affect your mood, yes. We also get an increase in dopamine when we start something new such as TRT or when there is a change in protocol. That feeling of excitement and energy and change and hope or whatever it is for you. That is why we always go from “great” to “normal” after some time and the effect feels like it wears off. There is never enough dopamine.

If you have depression, more testosterone is not going to fix that. T can help to improve your motivation and energy and mood to varying degrees in people, but that is different. Depression is something that should be taken seriously and discussed with your doctor.

 

[madman]

I've been on TRT FOR 6 weeks. 100mg Test Cypionate per week, injecting 50mg twice a week. e3.5d

My trough day Total Testosterone level was:524, free Testosterone 7.91. E2 was 15.6. when I started my Total testosterone was only 215.

My question is whether the feeling of well being is dosage dependent.The testosterone has helped level me more emotionally but a day before my next injection and the day of my next injection I find I am, more emotional and down trodden.
Would bringing my Test. trough levels to 800-900 range make a difference?
or is it, if your prone to getting into depressive moods, it will always be there so to speak?

You are only 6 weeks in.

Do understand that when starting trt hormones will be in FLUX during the weeks leading up until levels stabilize (6 weeks) top it off with the fact that your hpta will eventually shut down so as you can see there is a lot going on and it is normal to experience ups/downs during the transition.

Even then once blood levels stabilize it can take 2-3 months for the body to adapt and during this time is the critical period when you should truly gauge how you feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms and your overall well-being.

Too many make the mistake of expecting to feel all the beneficial effects of testosterone 6 weeks after starting trt or 6 weeks after tweaking their current trt protocol (increasing/decreasing) dose when in reality hormones will be in FLUX leading up until they stabilize and again it will take the body time to adapt to those new levels (2-3 months).

The only way a dose increase would be needed after 6 weeks is if your testosterone levels were still too low otherwise you need to stick it out and give your body time to adapt.

Seeing as you are injecting 100mg/week (50mg every 3.5 days) and your trough TT/FT still have room to come up some then you may very well need a slight dose increase but keep in mind that although your trough levels may seem less than stellar to you that your peak levels will be much higher on such protocol.

Personally I would give it more time before manipulating your protocol (dose of T/injection frequency).

Dopamine boost is common when starting trt or increasing the dose when tweaking a protocol but it is temporary as the body will always adapt.

Many get caught up in the HONEYMOON phase when starting trt or increasing their T dose but it is short-lived.

So much more than just simply dopamine as testosterones metabolites estradiol/dht are needed to experience the full spectrum of beneficial effects.

Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved - PMC

Testosterone has a spectrum of effects on the male organism. This review attempts to determine, from published studies, the time-course of the effects induced by testosterone replacement therapy from their first manifestation until maximum effects ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Pre Trt panel

54 yr old starting Trt. After screening panel seen in pics below Doc put me on 200mg test cyp once weekly. I’ll be back for bloods again day before my 7th injection. Does this protocol look good for my initial panel

www.excelmale.com

 

[rayrock1]

thanks again everyone for your help. Madman thank you for the links you provided, will study it closely.

 

[Gman86]

Interesting... well, he did say, once or twice... I decided to up that to 3-4X/yr... I will start requesting that my iron levels be checked on every blood test... do you think iron supplementation would take care of the deficit... if low... or is that not effective?

New question for you... I have some 10mg pregnenolone and ordered some 10mg DHEA... I read here and elsewhere it is a very good idea to supplement these while on TRT... do you agree? Is pregnenolone OK if taken for awhile without DHEA? Thanks for the help!

If iron is low, I personally wouldn’t go the iron supplement route. It might be effective, but not sure if it’s healthy to ingest the form of iron that’s in supplements. I would just eat a lot of red meat, eat beef liver, or take desiccated beef liver capsules, and try to ingest vitamin C every time u take in anything with iron. The vitamin C will help ur body absorb the iron.

In regards to DHEA, it all depends on whether ur low or not. Have u had ur DHEA levels tested? For example, my DHEA levels are naturally always on the higher end of normal, so not sure if supplementing would be beneficial for me. DHEA supposedly has an inverse relationship with cortisol, so too much DHEA I would assume can start to have negative effects. Although, I’ve heard some top HRT doctors recommend trying to get DHEA levels as high as u can without experiencing side effects. Like into the 800 range, so who knows. DHEA-S range is (106-464) for reference. If ur low in DHEA, supplementing would definitely be smart. DHEA has a ton of benefits, and is very important for optimal health. I would personally always start HRT with one compound tho. I would start with testosterone, try to get as dialed in as possible on test alone, and then introduce one more compound, get as dialed in with that compound, and continue adding compounds as needed one by one. Adding more than one compound from the beginning, or at any time, is a rookies mistake, and takes years and years to learn for most people, and doctors as well, unfortunately.

As far as pregnenolone goes, the more research I do on it, the more I think everyone should probably be on the stuff, as long as it doesn’t cause any negative side effects. If u look at the possible benefits of this stuff, it seems nothing short of a miracle supplement/ hormone. I plan on experimenting with it after my next set of labs.

And yes, pregnenolone should be absolutely fine to take without DHEA. But if ur low in DHEA, don’t expect pregnenolone to raise ur DHEA levels. So if u are in fact low in DHEA, u definitely want to take a separate DHEA supplement to get levels up.

 

[John O'Connor]

I've been on TRT FOR 6 weeks. 100mg Test Cypionate per week, injecting 50mg twice a week. e3.5d

My trough day Total Testosterone level was:524, free Testosterone 7.91. E2 was 15.6. when I started my Total testosterone was only 215.

My question is whether the feeling of well being is dosage dependent.The testosterone has helped level me more emotionally but a day before my next injection and the day of my next injection I find I am, more emotional and down trodden.
Would bringing my Test. trough levels to 800-900 range make a difference?
or is it, if your prone to getting into depressive moods, it will always be there so to speak?

Start low, and go slow. I agree with madman's advice to give it some time. It's good you started on a relatively conservative starting dose of 100mg per week, and that you are dosing 2x per week. My only concern with your initial post, and madman and others continued reference to labs done on your trough day, is that you really shouldn't have a change in levels while dosing every 3.5 days. Test cypionate peaks around 72 hours, and it's half life is about 8 days. Under this scenario, your trough day also happens to be your peak day. Technically the cypionate dose you injected 2 weeks ago is still about 25% active and it takes approximately 44 days to be completely eliminated from your body. Note, just like alcohol or any drug everyone's metabolism is unique. The beauty of dosing every 3.5 days or every other day is that you no longer need to worry about what day your lab work is done. For example I take 90mg weekly. Injecting 30mg Sunday morning, Tuesday night and Thursday night. No matter what day my labs are drawn, my total testosterone level is consistently around 700. I've never needed to use an AI. Note I also started on a higher dose, 100mg, 50mg twice weekly, I found it was too high. For me the best indicator that I'm on the best dose is morning wood frequency. If my dose is too high or too low I don't notice morning wood as frequently. I've never had nipple sensitivity issues, so I cannot speak to that. Individuals who dose once weekly are riding a roller coaster where their trough level at day 7 is probably 60 or 70 percent of their peak level at 72 hours. Check out drugs.com article called half-life explained. Just realize a drug taken orally with a 12 hour or 24 hour half life is dependent on how fast the liver metabolizes the drug. I hope this helps a little. *Note deleted the grapeseed and sesame seed references to half life.

 

[madman]

Start low, and go slow. I agree with madman's advice to give it some time. It's good you started on a relatively conservative starting dose of 100mg per week, and that you are dosing 2x per week. My only concern with your initial post, and madman and others continued reference to labs done on your trough day, is that you really shouldn't have a change in levels while dosing every 3.5 days. Test cypionate peaks around 72 hours, and it's half life is about 8 days. Under this scenario, your trough day also happens to be your peak day. Technically the cypionate dose you injected 3 weeks ago is still about 25% active and it takes approximately 44 days to be completely eliminated from your body. Note, just like alcohol or any drug everyone's metabolism is unique. The beauty of dosing every 3.5 days or every other day is that you no longer need to worry about what day your lab work is done. For example I take 90mg weekly. Injecting 30mg Sunday morning, Tuesday night and Thursday night. No matter what day my labs are drawn, my total testosterone level is consistently around 700. I've never needed to use an AI. Note I also started on a higher dose, 100mg, 50mg twice weekly, I found it was too high. For me the best indicator that I'm on the best dose is morning wood frequency. If my dose is too high or too low I don't notice morning wood as frequently. I've never had nipple sensitivity issues, so I cannot speak to that. Individuals who dose once weekly are riding a roller coaster where their trough level at day 7 is probably 60 or 70 percent of their peak level at 72 hours. Check out drugs.com article called half-life explained. Just realize a drug taken orally with a 12 hour or 24 hour half life is dependent on how fast the liver metabolizes the drug. That will differ from a drug like cypionate which is injected into muscle and is suspended in grapeseed oil which is designed to release the drug at a specific rate. Testosterone ethanate uses sesame oil which gives it a shorter half life. I hope this helps a little.

@Cataceous: I will let you eat this one up!



Even when injecting Tcyp twice weekly (every 3.5 days) there will be a difference in the peak--->trough levels.

Regardless of ester used T levels will start to increase within 2hrs post-injection and the half-life of cypionate is shorter than you stated let alone regarding half-lives enanthate and cypionate are basically interchangeable.

T enanthate peaks 8-12hrs post-injection!

 

[TucsonJJ]

If iron is low, I personally wouldn’t go the iron supplement route. It might be effective, but not sure if it’s healthy to ingest the form of iron that’s in supplements. I would just eat a lot of red meat, eat beef liver, or take desiccated beef liver capsules, and try to ingest vitamin C every time u take in anything with iron. The vitamin C will help ur body absorb the iron.

In regards to DHEA, it all depends on whether ur low or not. Have u had ur DHEA levels tested? For example, my DHEA levels are naturally always on the higher end of normal, so not sure if supplementing would be beneficial for me. DHEA supposedly has an inverse relationship with cortisol, so too much DHEA I would assume can start to have negative effects. Although, I’ve heard some top HRT doctors recommend trying to get DHEA levels as high as u can without experiencing side effects. Like into the 800 range, so who knows. DHEA-S range is (106-464) for reference. If ur low in DHEA, supplementing would definitely be smart. DHEA has a ton of benefits, and is very important for optimal health. I would personally always start HRT with one compound tho. I would start with testosterone, try to get as dialed in as possible on test alone, and then introduce one more compound, get as dialed in with that compound, and continue adding compounds as needed one by one. Adding more than one compound from the beginning, or at any time, is a rookies mistake, and takes years and years to learn for most people, and doctors as well, unfortunately.

As far as pregnenolone goes, the more research I do on it, the more I think everyone should probably be on the stuff, as long as it doesn’t cause any negative side effects. If u look at the possible benefits of this stuff, it seems nothing short of a miracle supplement/ hormone. I plan on experimenting with it after my next set of labs.

And yes, pregnenolone should be absolutely fine to take without DHEA. But if ur low in DHEA, don’t expect pregnenolone to raise ur DHEA levels. So if u are in fact low in DHEA, u definitely want to take a separate DHEA supplement to get levels up.

Thanks, Gman, a lot of good, make-sense info, appreciate it... I will ask for a blood test of both next time for labs... iron levels too... I too have read some good positive info on pregnenolone, and some bad stuff... that Ray Sahelian guy says any more then 1-2mg is bad... several guys here take 50mg daily and love it... he has been wrong lots of times...
I don't eat much read meat, but I like it a lot... so no problem there if I am low iron!
Can I ask... do you think a 8oz glass of red wine daily is really bad for TRT? how about a small toke of grass daily? I was doing both... but stopped to make sure the TRT was not messed with starting out... thx again!

 

[Cataceous]

@Cataceous: I will let you eat this one up!



Even when injecting Tcyp twice weekly (every 3.5 days) there will be a difference in the peak--->trough levels.

Regardless of ester used T levels will start to increase within 2hrs post-injection and the half-life of cypionate is shorter than you stated let alone regarding half-lives enanthate and cypionate are basically interchangeable.

T enanthate peaks 8-12hrs post-injection!

You did show me that the most credible research found a half-life of about five days for testosterone cypionate. In addition, there have been a few instances of guys reporting two testosterone measurements in an injection cycle, and these have jibed with the five-day half-life figure. So yes, on a 3.5 day cycle there's usually going to be a pronounced trough, and the peak could be as much as 50-60% higher.

I also agree that serum testosterone peaks in the first 12 hours post-injection, and maybe much less. With propionate, at two to three hours post-injection I see quite high values, which are around the predicted peak. In modeling the pharmacokinetics of testosterone esters one finds that the major influence on time-to-peak is the half-life of pure testosterone in serum; time-to-peak is relatively insensitive to the half-life of the ester itself.

 

[Gman86]

Thanks, Gman, a lot of good, make-sense info, appreciate it... I will ask for a blood test of both next time for labs... iron levels too... I too have read some good positive info on pregnenolone, and some bad stuff... that Ray Sahelian guy says any more then 1-2mg is bad... several guys here take 50mg daily and love it... he has been wrong lots of times...
I don't eat much read meat, but I like it a lot... so no problem there if I am low iron!
Can I ask... do you think a 8oz glass of red wine daily is really bad for TRT? how about a small toke of grass daily? I was doing both... but stopped to make sure the TRT was not messed with starting out... thx again!

Ya dosing on pregnenolone is so weird. Some guys do well on 5-10mg, and some need upwards of 200mg. I have no clue how there’s that wide of a range in regards to dosing.

Hahah, honestly I can’t really comment on either. Haven’t done much research into wine or marijuana, as they relate to HRT. I would imagine a little bit of both each day shouldn’t have much of an effect, but again I really don’t know. I do know a lady I used to work with that has a grandmother that’s 106 and has drank a full bottle of wine everyday for at least the past 30 years, and also had a patient one time that was 104 and had drank at least 3-4 glasses of wine her entire adult life, so take those anecdotes how u will lol. My theory on why they’re living so long has nothing to do with the wine directly, and has to do with lowering stress. Stress is the #1 killer for humans. People don’t realize how badly stress effects the human body. So my theory is that the wine kept their stress levels very low, and that’s why they’ve been able to love as long as they have.

 

[TucsonJJ]

Ya dosing on pregnenolone is so weird. Some guys do well on 5-10mg, and some need upwards of 200mg. I have no clue how there’s that wide of a range in regards to dosing.

Hahah, honestly I can’t really comment on either. Haven’t done much research into wine or marijuana, as they relate to HRT. I would imagine a little bit of both each day shouldn’t have much of an effect, but again I really don’t know. I do know a lady I used to work with that has a grandmother that’s 106 and has drank a full bottle of wine everyday for at least the past 30 years, and also had a patient one time that was 104 and had drank at least 3-4 glasses of wine her entire adult life, so take those anecdotes how u will lol. My theory on why they’re living so long has nothing to do with the wine directly, and has to do with lowering stress. Stress is the #1 killer for humans. People don’t realize how badly stress effects the human body. So my theory is that the wine kept their stress levels very low, and that’s why they’ve been able to love as long as they have.

Great! I am going to increase my red wine consumption!!
Kidding... actually, though, I have read in several places, moderate amounts of red wine really do increase health and life span... I was just afraid it might mess up my T levels...