Is HCG necessary on testosterone replacement ?

[JQ88]

Looks great.

I'm getting the message.

No AI needed unless it's needed.

Anastrozole has caused most of, if not all of my problems.

It's amazing the misinformation out there. Have you ever read well-respected T Nation sticky for TRT protocol.

They recommend 1mg Adex for every 100mg of test as a starting point.

 

[Jk78]

I don't get it; yes, in high doses HCG can aroamatase in some men but estrogen doesn't spike in 24 hours after an injection. Aroamatase synthesis is a slow process and takes some time for estrogen serum levels to elevate.

Something else is gong on I believe...

Gene, would you expect to see much of an E2 rise from 200-250iu twice a week. I had blood drawn and am waiting on my current E2 level, but am hoping to add hcg in the next couple of weeks to my protocol.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

JK78

I think you should stop obsessing about estradiol. It is not the evil hormone most men have been led to believe (in right amounts).

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...e-Needs-Estrogen-s-Help-to-Inhibit-Depression

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?2309-Role-of-Estradiol-in-Men-and-Its-Management

One more thing: NO one can predict your response to any protocol in this forum. We are all using regimens that have some data and validity to them but most of the time we vary things after trial and error. Not taking action because of fear and your inability to predict response will not lead you to a productive trial and error that can help you dial in a regimen that works for you.

 

[JQ88]

Great advice Nelson.

You are correct... It's all about fear and it's no way to live.

And nothing is the end of the world anyways. I anticipate to constantly be tweaking and I'm ok with that. TRT has brought WAY more positive into my life than negative, so nothing is perfect.

HCG has some positive benefits for my brain and mental clarity there is no doubt about it... I just seem to think quicker. And for ejaculation volume which doesn't really matter, but is definitely nice sometime.

I've made the personal decision to keep running it, for now.

I'll get labs in 4-6 weeks.

Once again, I really appreciate all of your input. It means a lot.

I look forward to reporting back results and hearing what you guys have to say.

There is a lot of knowledge here.

 

[Gene Devine]

HCG as a LH analog is a neuro-hormone and there are LH receptors on the peripheral parts of the brain and they are there for a reason.

Shutting down a hormone like LH and not replacing it is not normal nor healthy in my opinion.

We have LH receptors throughout our bodies and like I said, they are there for a reason.

 

[Speed]

And Gene, what are your personal reasons of injecting IM instead of Subq ? Your personal better absorption of T or something else ?

 

[JQ88]

Hey guys,

I trust the leaders of this site and the advice all you guys have given me.

Yet despite the consensus, I've still been too "afraid" to drop the AI cold turkey.

There is no doubt the Anastrozole has caused me more problems than anything else.

I want to try drop T from 80mg (2x/Wk) to 50mg every three days and get labs in 6 weeks.

I have no idea what I'm so afraid of. Estrogenic rebound? T not being high enough. My diet had been terrible last few weeks and lifestyle has been poor.

I want to get back on track and I don't even know why I'm writing this. To convince myself maybe.

I've really had some bad sides from the arimidex, and it's been a constant struggle for a year and a half trying to nail down the dosing; it's taken its toll on me physically, emotionally, spiritually.

I'm ready to stop cold turkey. I don't know why I'm having suck a difficult time.

I have fresh HCG and was thinking 50/250/.25(e3d) but I really want to drop the ARIMIDEX all together.

I can't even feel my hands sometimes. Skin and hair look terrible. All from the adex.

 

[Vince Carter]

You've got more problems than TRT/Estrogen/Anastrozole are going to resolve. I suspect you're aware of this.

 

[Vince]

Hey guys,

I trust the leaders of this site and the advice all you guys have given me.

Yet despite the consensus, I've still been too "afraid" to drop the AI cold turkey.

There is no doubt the Anastrozole has caused me more problems than anything else.

I want to try drop T from 80mg (2x/Wk) to 50mg every three days and get labs in 6 weeks.

I have no idea what I'm so afraid of. Estrogenic rebound? T not being high enough. My diet had been terrible last few weeks and lifestyle has been poor.

I want to get back on track and I don't even know why I'm writing this. To convince myself maybe.

I've really had some bad sides from the arimidex, and it's been a constant struggle for a year and a half trying to nail down the dosing; it's taken its toll on me physically, emotionally, spiritually.

I'm ready to stop cold turkey. I don't know why I'm having suck a difficult time.

I have fresh HCG and was thinking 50/250/.25(e3d) but I really want to drop the ARIMIDEX all together.

I can't even feel my hands sometimes. Skin and hair look terrible. All from the adex.

I wouldn't lower my testosterone or stop HCG, if you need an AI use it. There's lots of good post on E2 and AI, I would definitely read them. I inject HCG twice a week along with my T, but a lot of people inject HCG three times a week or even every day.

 

[JQ88]

Yes Vince,

I am actually very self-aware of issues I need to work on.

However, the purpose of this thread is my issue with HCG. Unless I lower T dose significantly, I get a negative reaction to hcG. Benadryl helped a little, but I get very obvious facial swelling and puffiness from Hcg, yet it is good for my brain.

I'm dropping it for now and taking the advice to get labs in a month.

 

[Vince]

Yes Vince,

I am actually very self-aware of issues I need to work on.

However, the purpose of this thread is my issue with HCG. Unless I lower T dose significantly, I get a negative reaction to hcG. Benadryl helped a little, but I get very obvious facial swelling and puffiness from Hcg, yet it is good for my brain.

I'm dropping it for now and taking the advice to get labs in a month.

I understand now, I hope everything works out for you . Please keep us updated.

 

[Vince Carter]

Yes Vince,

I am actually very self-aware of issues I need to work on.

However, the purpose of this thread is my issue with HCG. Unless I lower T dose significantly, I get a negative reaction to hcG. Benadryl helped a little, but I get very obvious facial swelling and puffiness from Hcg, yet it is good for my brain.

I'm dropping it for now and taking the advice to get labs in a month.

What I mean to say is that it's hard to help with other issues in the forefront. Friendly observation.

There's no reason you can't use a real minimal amount of HCG, at one-time I was using 100iu 2X week. I think you experience a similar thing and that's an Estrogen spike, that accounts for some bloating and puffiness. For the record, the Estrogen produced in the testes via HCG is NOT controlled by an AI as that production is not thru the Aromatase enzyme. I battled with HCG for awhile feeling it just complicated my E2 management.

 

[Vince]

Vince, I've never had a problem with e2, plus I only have one functioning testicle.

(opps you were talking to JQ88)

 

[Vince Carter]

Vince, I've never had a problem with e2, plus I only have one functioning testicle.

Well we know every one of us is different

 

[Speed]

Is there a thread about hcg and intratesticular aromatization. I never heard Nelson, or Dr. Saya, Dr. Crisler talk about that problem or AI not working in that case? I'm confused...

 

[JQ88]

Vinces,

Thanks for your responses.

VC, yes the fact that Adex doesn't account for HcG aromitization is where most of my problems lie.

I experience low e2 from the Adex and high e2 from Hcg AT THE SAME TIME.

This is a very frustration situation.

If I'm T+AI I take AI 24 hours post injection which doesn't cause me to go too low.

But with T+HCG+AI it's all done at the same time, which may cause me to go too low because I'm at a trough.

Your advice is valid going e3d but it's just too much Adex and there is no way I can go T+HCG without an AI. I get an extremely watery and estrogenic reaction to HCG, I don't care what anyone says or what labs say I know how I feel and look.

So maybe 125iu 2x/wk is the answer.

At this point man I just want to stick with something and get labs in a month. My inability to stick with a protocol is causing me great stress. Everytime I switch it up I wonder if the other way was better. I haven't stuck with a protocol long enough to really find out. 80/.25 (2x/wk) maybe fine.

Or 70/125/.25 (2x/wk)

Sooner or later I'll stick with something and report back with labs.

Thanks again guys.

-Jeff

 

[Vince Carter]

Are you shooting T with HCG, ala Nelson's method? I mean not just same syringe but at the same time? Presuming you are doing both of those at the same time, I did that ONCE and had a elaborately shitty day, enough that I'll never do it again. Like you I'm sure it was E2 that went haywire. It was just something I tried where as I at a minumum shoot T and HCG 12hrs apart, if not 24-36 hours. Where as I shoot T EOD/AM, I shoot HCG Sun/Wed PM and try to keep them separate.

 

[JQ88]

Vince,

I really appreciate this dialogue. Thanku.

Yes. I always shoot at the same time and always causes issues.

I guess I assumed T doesn't Peak for 24 hours and HCG peaks in 12 hours so it would be ok.

But maybe splitting it up would be better.


Taking HCG one day before T. And then Adex (if needed) one day after T.

When I have taken T+HCG without AI it's bad so I always combine those as well.

I really desperately just want to stick with something but can't make a decision on HCG or AI or T dosing.

I know there are people that do 80/80 with no AI and feel great. I don't know man.

 

[ERO]

You are WAY overthinking and overcomplicating this. If you are dosing every 3.5 days, take everything on the SAME day. Problem solved. Don't worry about when HCG peaks or T peaks - the whole point of dosing twice a week is that it evens out the peaks and valleys so you don't have to worry about them or factor them into some complex dosing formula.

 

[JQ88]

I've made my decision.

60/250/.25 (e3d)

I'm going to do my injections at night since those first 12 hours post HCG seem to be the worst.

I'm going to get labs in 4-6 weeks and report back with the results.

It may be too much T. I guess only labs will tell.

Thanks again guys.