Is “Enclomiphene Citrate” going to replace hCG in the USA?

[jacb]

I stumbled across this VIDEO that says now that HCG has been banned by the FDA in the USA, Enclomiphene Citrate will be it’s logical replacement.

If Enclomiphene Citrate is used, do you continue to supplement with Testosterone Cypionate (Sub-q or IM) as we did with HCG or does it simply depend on how you respond the Enclomiphene Citrate?

 

[Cataceous]

HCG has not been banned, not even in compounded form. Rather, it has been classified as a biologic, production of which requires special licensing. Obtaining such a license is expensive and time-consuming.

Enclomiphene is not a direct replacement for hCG. I left the following comment under the video. We'll see if they allow it to stay:

There's some incorrect information here on the differences between clomiphene (Clomid) and enclomiphene. Clomiphene consists of two isomers, enclomiphene and zuclomiphene. Enclomiphene does indeed have a short half-life, while that of zuclomiphene is very long. However, zuclomiphene is effectively an estrogen, and activates rather than antagonizes estrogen receptors. This is why the side effects profile of clomiphene differs from that of enclomiphene.

Use of enclomiphene with TRT is likely to be problematic. Anecdotally we've already seen that clomiphene is usually ineffective as such an adjunct. And it's likely that the presence of zuclomiphene is not the reason why. Rather, the hypothalamus experiences negative feedback from androgens as well as estrogens. Enclomiphene blocks the negative estrogenic feedback, but does not affect the suppressive androgenic feedback. Therefore I believe you will find gonadotropins remain suppressed in most men following this new protocol.

Interestingly, the hypothalamus can be bypassed if you supply GnRH directly as gonadorelin. In this case enclomiphene attenuates negative feedback at the pituitary to the extent that gonadotropin production is possible. However, infrequent use of gonadorelin is not likely to produce good results. In normal men GnRH is pulsed 10-20 times a day.

 

[tareload]

How do I join the @Cataceous Fan Club? Annual membership fee?

Seriously, whether you are human, AI, or combination thereof, it is impressive. Thank you again for being a resource for facts and science-based information on the internet!

 

[hombre]

Mono enclomiphene raises by TT from 250 ng/dL to 550,
been on enclo since June, going to go back to Test Cyp. I heard these days enclo replaced HCG in TRT protocols

 

[jacb]

HCG has not been banned, not even in compounded form. Rather, it has been classified as a biologic, production of which requires special licensing. Obtaining such a license is expensive and time-consuming.

Enclomiphene is not a direct replacement for hCG. I left the following comment under the video. We'll see if they allow it to stay:

There's some incorrect information here on the differences between clomiphene (Clomid) and enclomiphene. Clomiphene consists of two esters, enclomiphene and zuclomiphene. Enclomiphene does indeed have a short half-life, while that of zuclomiphene is very long. However, zuclomiphene is effectively an estrogen, and activates rather than antagonizes estrogen receptors. This is why the side effects profile of clomiphene differs from that of enclomiphene.

Use of enclomiphene with TRT is likely to be problematic. Anecdotally we've already seen that clomiphene is usually ineffective as such an adjunct. And it's likely that the presence of zuclomiphene is not the reason why. Rather, the hypothalamus experiences negative feedback from androgens as well as estrogens. Enclomiphene blocks the negative estrogenic feedback, but does not affect the suppressive androgenic feedback. Therefore I believe you will find gonadotropins remain suppressed in most men following this new protocol.

Interestingly, the hypothalamus can be bypassed if you supply GnRH directly as gonadorelin. In this case enclomiphene attenuates negative feedback at the pituitary to the extent that gonadotropin production is possible. However, infrequent use of gonadorelin is not likely to produce good results. In normal men GnRH is pulsed 10-20 times a day.

Thank you Cataceous

The cost of HCG is I fear soon going to make people look for HCG options or import unknown quality products from overseas.

Following the video link in my original post I can see no mention of your post in the comments section …. It looks like it has been removed.

 

[jacb]

Mono enclomiphene raises by TT from 250 ng/dL to 550,
been on enclo since June, going to go back to Test Cyp. I heard these days enclo replaced HCG in TRT protocols

Hi Hombre

Do we understand that you took 12.5 mg of Enclomiphene Citrate twice weekly for 6+ months and during that time your base line TT went from 250 ng/dL to 550 ng/dL? At the time you were taking no other testosterone products?

It would seem (if fully stimulate) that your have reached your indervidual Testiculat potential. Just as if you were on a course of a sufficient amount of HCG (ie mono therapy).

Have you considered supplementing the Enclomiphene Citrate with Testosterone Cypionate, if you want to get your TT to a higher value Or does what Cataceous has said now worry you even after spending 6 months on Enclomiphene Citrate?

 

[hombre]

I need to correct myself

June 2021 - Aug 2021: 8 weeks HPTA restart protocol: enclo daily 25mg
at the end TT = 550ng/dL [btw: my LH was sky high, something like 25*, when the reference limit is something like 9, 12 or 14 don't remember for sure]

Sep 2021 - Oct 2021: all natural! TT down to 250 ng/dL (summer 2018 before TRT my TT was 260-320 ng/dL fluctuating, out of 5 tests once spiked to 500 ng/dL)

Nov 2021 - Feb 2022: enclo 12.5mg TIW (no bloodwork done; not even sure at what point I collect bloods, enclo half life is pretty short). I started shooting already without getting an approval from Defy , should have collected bloods first

BTW I switched from a 3 year long TRT to natural production / enclo later, to confirm that TRT didn't aggravate my ADHD. It probably didn't. I am same ADHD being natural or on enclo.

I'm not exactly sure what Cataceus means. I heard some on enclo achieve 900 ng/dL without TRT. I'd assume my limit is 500 ng/dL. If I'm on TRT at 51mg BIW test cyp, that would bring my TT to 550 ng/dL. I assume in this case taking enclo might be useless for maintaining any natural production if Cataceus is right. How do we even measure balls test production activity in this case (blood work I mean)?

The last email I received about HCG from Defy was about using enclo as HCG alternative, other options were mentioned, but they were all injectables I believe.

 

[Cataceous]

...
Following the video link in my original post I can see no mention of your post in the comments section …. It looks like it has been removed.

Yes, it appears it has been censored. If the video reflects more generally on Low T Nation then it's a reason to be wary of them.

... I assume in this case taking enclo might be useless for maintaining any natural production if Cataceus is right. How do we even measure balls test production activity in this case (blood work I mean)?
...

Yes, the concern is that enclomiphene is likely to be ineffective when used with TRT. I've come across one guy claiming to be an exception. However, Dr. Saya's statements regarding clomiphene use with TRT carry more weight, as does the low-level research, e.g.: "Kisspeptin neurons express the estrogen receptor and the androgen receptor, and these cells are direct targets for the action of gonadal steroids in both male and female animals. Kisspeptin signaling in the brain has been implicated in mediating the negative feedback action of sex steroids on gonadotropin secretion..."[R]

...How do we even measure balls test production activity in this case (blood work I mean)?
...

It's straightforward to test the overall proposition: Measure LH before and after. LH is what hCG is intended to replace. Both stimulate the Leydig cells in the gonads. Most men find LH to be quite low under TRT. If adding enclomiphene pushes LH into the physiological range then it would effectively be a replacement for hCG.


@readalot: Thanks for the kind words, but don't set too high of a standard. As you once said about yourself, I'm just a guy on the Internet. Peer review must apply to all of us.

 

[hombre]

would it make sense to take enclo right before LH bloodwork then (when on cypionate + enclomiphene) or the day prior? Its half-life is only 10 hours.

I'm taking enclomiphene 12.5mg TIW.

 

[Cataceous]

would it make sense to take enclo right before LH bloodwork then (when on cypionate + enclomiphene) or the day prior? Its half-life is only 10 hours.
...

The enclomiphene should be taken at least an hour before measuring LH, and a few hours might be better. It's possible there's a delay between peak serum enclomiphene and peak LH production. For such testing to be more definitive there should be a baseline test result showing low LH after being on only TRT for at least a couple months. Then enclomiphene would be added to the protocol and LH would be retested in a couple months. There can be pretty significant delays in shutting down and restarting the HPTA.

...
Do we understand that you took 12.5 mg of Enclomiphene Citrate twice weekly for 6+ months and during that time your base line TT went from 250 ng/dL to 550 ng/dL? At the time you were taking no other testosterone products?

It would seem (if fully stimulate) that your have reached your indervidual Testiculat potential. Just as if you were on a course of a sufficient amount of HCG (ie mono therapy).
...

In the clinical trials on enclomiphene, total testosterone was 50% higher with 25 mg daily than with 12.5 mg daily. Therefore we can't assume he was "fully stimulated".

 

[jacb]

In the clinical trials on enclomiphene, total testosterone was 50% higher with 25 mg daily than with 12.5 mg daily. Therefore we can't assume he was "fully stimulated".

Hi Cataceous

Fair Commitment….. I guess IF you were choosing to ignore your wise words and go down the enclomiphene path … in simple terms you would up the enclomiphene dose to ascertain what your individual fully stimulated total testosterone levels were and then gradually reduce your enclomiphene intake until you TT levels started to fall. Maybe this wouldn’t take so long because of the short half life? But … I do note all your other factors which you mentioned in your post And it depends on what your TT/FT goals are … Many factors to consider.

For now I guess I will try and import some hCG (I am not in the USA) from the likes of Indiamart.

 

[HealthMan]

Just an odd observation. When i used tamoxifen with TRT (no HCG) my testes size stayed normal despite the fact that LH levels were pretty much zero. On testosterone only i get pretty bad atrophy.

 

[fastman]

I stumbled across this VIDEO that says now that HCG has been banned by the FDA in the USA, Enclomiphene Citrate will be it’s logical replacement.

If Enclomiphene Citrate is used, do you continue to supplement with Testosterone Cypionate (Sub-q or IM) as we did with HCG or does it simply depend on how you respond the Enclomiphene Citrate?

Typical marketing BS from a T mill. Don't believe everything you hear on YT.

 

[jacb]

Typical marketing BS from a T mill. Don't believe everything you hear on YT.

You have had a bad experienc?

 

[Cataceous]

There's been an interesting development related to this topic, in that @Strengthandlibido reports that Defy Medical is letting him try enclomiphene with TRT "as part of a clinical study." I reached out to one of the Defy guys on the forum to see if he could provide any details. I haven't received a response yet. Unlike the half-baked protocol proposed by Low T Nation, with only a couple doses of enclomiphene a week, the Defy protocol looks like a full-bore attempt to see if any guys can achieve some HPTA activity by using a SERM while on TRT. It includes 25 mg of enclomiphene daily, the maximum used in the clinical trials for Androxal.

 

[jacb]

Thanks Cataceous please keep us posted as the study progresses.

I note that Defy is planing to use 25mg of enclomiphene daily (175 mg a week) where as T Nation was talking about 12.5 mg twice per week (25 mg in total, per week). A huge percentage difference and that’s before they add TRT, something T Nation didn’t even mention.

A very different protocol indeed.

 

[tareload]

Yes, it appears it has been censored.

Congrats. In the context of Youtube, this is independent confirmation you know what the heck you are talking about.

@readalot: Thanks for the kind words, but don't set too high of a standard. As you once said about yourself, I'm just a guy on the Internet. Peer review must apply to all of us.

Haha. It's you that's setting the high standard and man it sure is refreshing. I'm definitely peer reviewing, it's just there's really nothing to critique and I find that very comforting, satisfying, and restores my faith in humanity with people like you out here dishing out such high value information for free. Thank you again.

 

[nodoctor]

Even less educated here but I thought it was common knowledge Clomid does not go with testosterone cypionate.

For example, clomid is used for post cycle therapy for heavy users (not trt folks) And I’ve always understood that they stop using steroids for a couple of weeks to get it out of their system before starting Clomid because otherwise Clomid doesn’t do its job with restarting Production via the feedback loop of the hypothalamic pituitary axis.

Either way, the fully licensed hCG folks have to be celebrating this as a major windfall.

 

[jacb]

Even less educated here but I thought it was common knowledge Clomid does not go with testosterone cypionate.

nodoctor

You may care to reread Cataceous’s post (no 2 in this thread) where he talked about the differences between clomiphene (Clomid) and enclomiphene.

We are talking about the latter in this thread.

Do you still believe your commitments are relevant?

 

[nodoctor]

nodoctor

You may care to reread Cataceous’s post (no 2 in this thread) where he talked about the differences between clomiphene (Clomid) and enclomiphene.

We are talking about the latter in this thread.

Do you still believe your commitments are relevant?

Yes. Good clarification but clomid doesn’t go with T because T stops the necessary negative feedback from happening. Even if half life is shorter same issue will exist with enclomiphine.

Doesn’t this nuance mean pct as well as trt should drop clomid in favor of enclomiphine though? An estrogen receptor agonist would be unwelcome I would think…