Irritable and anxiety between doses

[ratbag]

I suffered from anxiety big time too and taking DHEA and HCG solved it for me. I'm as calm as a cucumber now and both those meds helped me significantly. Yes I've heard of many who cannot tolerate dhea at all but if you are suffering those symptoms it would be worth a try. Secondly, 30iu of HCG 3x per week =90iu weekly. Nelson has some research on how much HCG it takes to be effective and as I recall it takes a minimum of 350iu several times per week to have an effect. This means 90iu weekly is totally ineffective. I was taking 250iu twice a week and after I read that research I increased my dosage to 400iu twice a week and I felt much better, calmer without any anxiety. Therefore I have a hard time believing 90iu is doing anything beneficial for you.

 

[rhino5169]

I suffered from anxiety big time too and taking DHEA and HCG solved it for me. I'm as calm as a cucumber now and both those meds helped me significantly. Yes I've heard of many who cannot tolerate dhea at all but if you are suffering those symptoms it would be worth a try. Secondly, 30iu of HCG 3x per week =90iu weekly. Nelson has some research on how much HCG it takes to be effective and as I recall it takes a minimum of 350iu several times per week to have an effect. This means 90iu weekly is totally ineffective. I was taking 250iu twice a week and after I read that research I increased my dosage to 400iu twice a week and I felt much better, calmer without any anxiety. Therefore I have a hard time believing 90iu is doing anything beneficial for you.

Ratbag that's some interesting info about hcg dosing. I've never heard that before but I'm going to now check that out thoroughly.
Thx

 

[rhino5169]

Btw, I'm actually taking 90iu per week.
it's 30 on the syringe and each 10 is equal to 100 as my hcg is an 11000iu vial.
so 30iu 3x per week is 900iu.
Having said that, I'm reading that effective dosing is 1000iu - 4000iu per week?

 

[ratbag]

I think you'll find that 500iu 3 times per week is the limit we do around here... probably due to desensitisation if we take any more than that.

Most if not all of the dosing calculations are incorrect in this thread. There was a lot of confusion at the beginning with mg versus ml versus iu and the amount you were actually taking.

Just remember on your syringe that 100iu(units) = 1 ml (a full syringe)
Your testosterone is 200mg/ml. Or (2mg/iu)
You said you took 33mg of test 3 x per week. But you didn't state how many units you took?

You would have to state how much Bacteriostatic water you mixed in your 11,000 iu vial for us to know it's strength. Then we would be able to calculate the correct dosage. Otherwise we are assuming and guessing.

 

[Will Brink]

I think you are missing a key point,

Which is my assessment of your prior comment, hence my response. I'll leave at that. Good luck.

 

[Will Brink]

^I hyave to disagree there been reports of mania associated with dhea use.. I myself did notice hypomanic symptoms after taking dhea... for some people it's real imo dhea should be taken more seriously in trt

Reports are not data and there's been "reports" of creatine causing blindness, but we know creatine does not cause blindness. Again, if you feel DHEA was a negative, don't use it. My point is, the data, not random reports of n = 1 anecdotes, overwhelming finds DHEA to have a wide range of benefits and healthy DHEA levels, as seen in younger people, strongly correlated with a wide range of benefits while low DHEA levels seen with aging, also strongly correlated to things best avoided.

 

[rhino5169]

I think you'll find that 500iu 3 times per week is the limit we do around here... probably due to desensitisation if we take any more than that.

Most if not all of the dosing calculations are incorrect in this thread. There was a lot of confusion at the beginning with mg versus ml versus iu and the amount you were actually taking.

Just remember on your syringe that 100iu(units) = 1 ml (a full syringe)
Your testosterone is 200mg/ml. Or (2mg/iu)
You said you took 33mg of test 3 x per week. But you didn't state how many units you took?

You would have to state how much Bacteriostatic water you mixed in your 11,000 iu vial for us to know it's strength. Then we would be able to calculate the correct dosage. Otherwise we are assuming and guessing.

Mixing was 1:1 I mixed 11000iu hcg with 11000iu of bacteriostatic water

 

[ratbag]

So at 1:1 mix you are indeed taking 30iu, (.3ml) three times per week which is a weekly total of 90iu. Actually I believe 90iu=900 of hcg. (25iu=250 hcg etc) So 90iu per week is a normal amount. There is a thread here that discusses that some HCG doesn't work... I see this all the time so I imagine others do too.

Just out of curiosity how many iu's do you take of testosterone?

 

[rhino5169]

So at 1:1 mix you are indeed taking 30iu, (.3ml) three times per week which is a weekly total of 90iu. Actually I believe 90iu=900 of hcg. (25iu=250 hcg etc) So 90iu per week is a normal amount. There is a thread here that discusses that some HCG doesn't work... I see this all the time so I imagine others do too.

Just out of curiosity how many iu's do you take of testosterone?

TestosteronedoseTestosterone dose is33on
Testosterone dose is 33iu on the 100iu syringe, so if my math is correct it's 33ml and at 200mg/ml it's 66mg, 3x a week for a total of 198mg a week.

 

[ratbag]

Yes it's 33iu not ml. Each of your 3 doses is 66mg. Correct your taking 198mg/week of testosterone

After thinking about your HCG, you take 300 of it 3x per week. Since that research came out that shows you need more than that, I wonder if it would be prudent to take 400 (40iu) 3 times per week to see if it changes anything for you, only because it's possible your not getting enough.

 

[rhino5169]

Yes it's 33iu not ml. Each of your 3 doses is 66mg. Correct your taking 198mg/week of testosterone

After thinking about your HCG, you take 300 of it 3x per week. Since that research came out that shows you need more than that, I wonder if it would be prudent to take 400 (40iu) 3 times per week to see if it changes anything for you, only because it's possible your not getting enough.

Well I'm kinda wondering that, but what exactly might taking more do for me keeping in mind I'm already at a high level of total T, free T, and dht?

 

[ratbag]

The benefit is increased LH, and the benefits of that and there is improved well being etc. Dr. Crisler was posting about that and also of DHEA as the meds that some people report to have a feeling of well being and increased cognitive function etc. So this happened to me. I wasn't on HCG or dhea and I was ok but still had anxiety and not being totally social, a mild form of depression and I'd had it for a while. So labs and current treatments supported taking both so I did and it was the showstopper. It fixed everything, however I am hypopituitary. I am calm and relaxed now and don't get stressed by much. Some people don't notice any difference no matter what they do. You just have to try it for yourself and give yourself time enough to figure out what you like best.

 

[rhino5169]

The benefit is increased LH, and the benefits of that and there is improved well being etc. Dr. Crisler was posting about that and also of DHEA as the meds that some people report to have a feeling of well being and increased cognitive function etc. So this happened to me. I wasn't on HCG or dhea and I was ok but still had anxiety and not being totally social, a mild form of depression and I'd had it for a while. So labs and current treatments supported taking both so I did and it was the showstopper. It fixed everything, however I am hypopituitary. I am calm and relaxed now and don't get stressed by much. Some people don't notice any difference no matter what they do. You just have to try it for yourself and give yourself time enough to figure out what you like best.

Thanks for all the info. I may be giving this a try and see how it goes.

 

[ScottM]

Let's cut down some of these strawmen, no one is saying DHEA doesn't have benefits. Given your background, I am genuinely curious as to what your interpretation here is. Do you believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no way DHEA causes anxiety in any individual? I doubt you believe that as you have already laid out a possible pathway.

I believe, and they may correct me if I am wrong, but what everyone else is saying is that while it may not be a common side effect or experience, it is possible for DHEA to cause anxiety in some individuals and therefore in this particular case, DHEA use should be examined by this man and his provider. Can you outline where you disagree please? Do you recommend he disregard what you are calling "anecdotal" and not even mention this to his physician? I am not trying to argue or come off as anything other than inquisitive. You have an impressive resume and I am really trying to understand your position. I want to understand what you are advising, how that differs from the consensus here, and why.

Thanks,
Scott
Telthera

Reports are not data and there's been "reports" of creatine causing blindness, but we know creatine does not cause blindness. Again, if you feel DHEA was a negative, don't use it. My point is, the data, not random reports of n = 1 anecdotes, overwhelming finds DHEA to have a wide range of benefits and healthy DHEA levels, as seen in younger people, strongly correlated with a wide range of benefits while low DHEA levels seen with aging, also strongly correlated to things best avoided.

 

[ScottM]

Great post, thanks Rhino.

Thanks for all the info. I may be giving this a try and see how it goes.

 

[ScottM]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever experienced any negative side effects, particularly hairloss at these dosages? While I agree with the optimal dosage recommendations, I know a few guys who had to scale it back due to temporary hairloss. They still see benefits on lower dose HCG, not as pronounced of course, but I am wondering if you have any input on working around the hairloss or avoiding it all together.

Thanks,
Scott
Telthera

Yes it's 33iu not ml. Each of your 3 doses is 66mg. Correct your taking 198mg/week of testosterone

After thinking about your HCG, you take 300 of it 3x per week. Since that research came out that shows you need more than that, I wonder if it would be prudent to take 400 (40iu) 3 times per week to see if it changes anything for you, only because it's possible your not getting enough.

 

[ratbag]

I can't really comment on that because I am hypopituitary and I lost 80% of my hair before I was 21. There isn't much left to do anything with...

 

[ScottM]

Got it, thanks for the honesty. Hope your pitiutary is managed as best as possible now.

Thanks,
Scott
Telthera

I can't really comment on that because I am hypopituitary and I lost 80% of my hair before I was 21. There isn't much left to do anything with...

 

[Will Brink]

Let's cut down some of these strawmen, no one is saying DHEA doesn't have benefits. Given your background, I am genuinely curious as to what your interpretation here is. Do you believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no way DHEA causes anxiety in any individual?

I don't believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that T does not increase the risk of prostate cancer as the data continues to come in. I strongly believe the data does not support the fear many have in a T and PC 1:1 relationship often touted by T phobic docs but it's not near "beyond a shadow of a doubt" by science standards. Do you see the difference?

I doubt you believe that as you have already laid out a possible pathway.

I believe, and they may correct me if I am wrong, but what everyone else is saying is that while it may not be a common side effect or experience, it is possible for DHEA to cause anxiety in some individuals and therefore in this particular case, DHEA use should be examined by this man and his provider. Can you outline where you disagree please?

I did outline it best I can. There's really nothing else to add other than to say anecdotes nor n = 1 reports supersede objective data and the bulk of the data strongly suggests mental/mood benefits of DHEA or no effects. Not aware of a study finding a negative impact. Two, 3 decades or so of being in the "biz" and probably as much "real world" feedback from DHEA users as anyone, and that one yet to come up.

Hence, I'm highly skeptical of DHEA is the cause of anxiety in men using typical doses.

Do you recommend he disregard what you are calling "anecdotal" and not even mention this to his physician? I am not trying to argue or come off as anything other than inquisitive. You have an impressive resume and I am really trying to understand your position. I want to understand what you are advising, how that differs from the consensus here, and why.

Thanks,
Scott
Telthera

Understood and also not trying to be a jerk here at all, and I'd recommend all symptoms, etc be discussed with doctor. Is it impossible DHEA is the cause? Of course not as technically nothing is impossible in science, only highly improbable, and I feel it's improbable DHEA the cause of the anxiety based on what I know about DHEA both objectively (the existing science) and subjectively, but nothing is impossible.

 

[ScottM]

Got it and yes I do see the difference. But in this specific thread we were discussing a particular case and possible association, not a global blanket statement about all users of DHEA, seems like that's where a lot of the confusion was.

I find it interesting that you've never encountered someone recently put on DHEA experiencing new onset anxiety, I wonder if it is a dosing or complementary protocol effect. Worth looking into for sure.

Based on what you've studied: What do you see as DHEAs role in TRT? Do you typically include DHEA as part of a standard protocol or only when blood tests indicate a deficiency?

Thanks,
Scott

I don't believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that T does not increase the risk of prostate cancer as the data continues to come in. I strongly believe the data does not support the fear many have in a T and PC 1:1 relationship often touted by T phobic docs but it's not near "beyond a shadow of a doubt" by science standards. Do you see the difference?



I did outline it best I can. There's really nothing else to add other than to say anecdotes nor n = 1 reports supersede objective data and the bulk of the data strongly suggests mental/mood benefits of DHEA or no effects. Not aware of a study finding a negative impact. Two, 3 decades or so of being in the "biz" and probably as much "real world" feedback from DHEA users as anyone, and that one yet to come up.

Hence, I'm highly skeptical of DHEA is the cause of anxiety in men using typical doses.



Understood and also not trying to be a jerk here at all, and I'd recommend all symptoms, etc be discussed with doctor. Is it impossible DHEA is the cause? Of course not as technically nothing is impossible in science, only highly improbable, and I feel it's improbable DHEA the cause of the anxiety based on what I know about DHEA both objectively (the existing science) and subjectively, but nothing is impossible.