Infrequent dosing to avoid shutdown…

[Darkmode]

This might seem stupid, but here me out….

Long story short: I have treatment/lifestyle/therapy resistant depression, mental fatigue, anxiety. You name it, I’ve tried it. Believe me. Both medical and underground. Doctors are at a loss. But one day I decided to try testosterone and….. bam. Total and complete cure. It’s like Robert Deniro in Awakenings haha

BUT I’ve always avoided hoping on since then because:

1. My T levels are consistently good. Right in the middle and I don’t want to shut myself down for a lifetime of T therapy.

2. TRT in the U.K. is a major ball ache. And the services provided are medieval compared to the US.

HERES THE BIG QUESTION.

I got hold of some T gel from abroad when I was feeling curious. I have experimented. And I have noticed that if I dose myself 3 clicks occasionally, it has a huge positive impact on my mental health for up to three weeks. Anxiety gone, motivation up, concentration vastly improved, generally feeling smooth and stable. Other T benefits come and go very quickly. Within a day or two. But after 3 clicks of 2% gel, my mental state is great for a week, then tapers in the second week. Even the third week, although not 100%, is still better than baseline. 4th week and I’m struggling.

SO…

That has me wondering. What is the maximum possible dosing frequency to avoid shutdown? Once a week, surely I’d end up crashing myself and even lower. Once every two weeks? I could definitely get away with once every 3 weeks. Hell, I’d even be happy with once a month so that the best part of the month I’m productive and focussed. Worst comes to worse, I’d settle for the absolute minimum frequency to avoid shutdown, in order to get a few good weeks here and there, or on demand. But there is very little information on what you can take and how often to avoid shutdown.

Any ideas?

 

[42HRT]

basically any amount of exogenous test, is likely going to shut you down over the long term. I guess if you were doing like 10 mg a week, you may still have some natural production. I don't know if anyone is going to know the answer to your question

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Several things...Have you tried a low dose of clomid (e..g 12mg every other day or 25mg twice per week)? That should not be suppressive at all and should boost your T, however it sounds like it is some metabolite of T that persists for several weeks or possibly some sort of receptor up-regulation that is giving you benefit rather than just the T itself. Another option is to use the Gel and Clomid together which may not be suppressive at all. Bloodwork will give you a good indication but in general suppression is a due to a combination of the compound, dose, duration, and frequency of use. For example, some compounds (e.g. oxandrolone and (i think) turinabol) are not not particularly suppressive. Some of the very short-acting forms of T may be less suppressive and you can search here for @Cataceous 's posts which describe those. Lastly, I would use the term suppression rather than shutdown since what you are doing will almost certainly not come anywhere close to shutting you down. All that said, a lot of people never get the progress you have already so once a month or every three weeks seems very low risk for the foreseeable future.

 

[Wilson7]

"For example, some compounds (e.g. oxandrolone and (i think) turinabol) are not not particularly suppressive." 15 mg/d for 5 days of OX will knock your circulating T down by about 40% (Sheffield-Moore 1999). All androgens or SARMS will shut you down, fast and in very small doses. Bro Science suggests otherwise but its BS.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

"For example, some compounds (e.g. oxandrolone and (i think) turinabol) are not not particularly suppressive." 15 mg/d for 5 days of OX will knock your circulating T down by about 40% (Sheffield-Moore 1999). All androgens or SARMS will shut you down, fast and in very small doses. Bro Science suggests otherwise but its BS.

40% is nowhere close to "shutdown"

"All androgens or SARMS will shut you down, fast and in very small doses." The study you quoted in your first sentence directly contradicts this.

Somewhat off topic, but 15mg for 5 days is IME an unnecessarily high dose to at least get a strength boost. I have seen benefit at 10 mg pre-workout 3 times per week, and clomid would likely further reduce suppression.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

This might seem stupid, but here me out….

Long story short: I have treatment/lifestyle/therapy resistant depression, mental fatigue, anxiety. You name it, I’ve tried it. Believe me. Both medical and underground. Doctors are at a loss. But one day I decided to try testosterone and….. bam. Total and complete cure. It’s like Robert Deniro in Awakenings haha

BUT I’ve always avoided hoping on since then because:

1. My T levels are consistently good. Right in the middle and I don’t want to shut myself down for a lifetime of T therapy.

2. TRT in the U.K. is a major ball ache. And the services provided are medieval compared to the US.

HERES THE BIG QUESTION.

I got hold of some T gel from abroad when I was feeling curious. I have experimented. And I have noticed that if I dose myself 3 clicks occasionally, it has a huge positive impact on my mental health for up to three weeks. Anxiety gone, motivation up, concentration vastly improved, generally feeling smooth and stable. Other T benefits come and go very quickly. Within a day or two. But after 3 clicks of 2% gel, my mental state is great for a week, then tapers in the second week. Even the third week, although not 100%, is still better than baseline. 4th week and I’m struggling.

SO…

That has me wondering. What is the maximum possible dosing frequency to avoid shutdown?

In my opinion, here's what I predict will happen if you dose once every couple weeks: your testosterone area under the curve will now be slightly lower across that two weeks than it would have been at baseline. Not drastically lower - maybe 10-20% lower. You will not be "shutdown" or "crashed" by this activity, not even remotely close.

I think you could even dose it once a week indefinitely, and you would still not be shutdown. Now though, maybe your testosterone AUC for the week is 30-40% lower than baseline.

You don't have to guess at this. You are only a few months of experimentation and a few lab tests away from having definitive answers to your questions. I hope you'll report back and let me know how far off I was with my predictions.

 

[Wilson7]

40% is nowhere close to "shutdown"

"All androgens or SARMS will shut you down, fast and in very small doses." The study you quoted in your first sentence directly contradicts this.

Somewhat off topic, but 15mg for 5 days is IME an unnecessarily high dose to at least get a strength boost. I have seen benefit at 10 mg pre-workout 3 times per week, and clomid would likely further reduce suppression.

Give it a try and let us know what happens.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Give it a try and let us know what happens.

I am, but OP will likely have bloodwork much sooner. I have added some Clomid into my TRT and I will be interested to see what my LH is, but so far it seems to replace HCG very well. My main point here is that I wish I had started with a Clomid+ protocol before I started full TRT, and I think a lot of people are steered away from an approach like that by incorrectly equating the concepts of suppression and shutdown.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I am, but OP will likely have bloodwork much sooner. I have added some Clomid into my TRT and I will be interested to see what my LH is, but so far it seems to replace HCG very well. My main point here is that I wish I had started with a Clomid+ protocol before I started full TRT, and I think a lot of people are steered away from an approach like that by incorrectly equating the concepts of suppression and shutdown.

Check this out if you haven't seen it yet: https://www.maximustribe.com/white-paper/oral-trt

1327 ng/dL Total T, 38.3 ng/dL Free T, high-normal LH and FSH (higher than baseline)

 

[madman]

This might seem stupid, but here me out….

Long story short: I have treatment/lifestyle/therapy resistant depression, mental fatigue, anxiety. You name it, I’ve tried it. Believe me. Both medical and underground. Doctors are at a loss. But one day I decided to try testosterone and….. bam. Total and complete cure. It’s like Robert Deniro in Awakenings haha

BUT I’ve always avoided hoping on since then because:

1. My T levels are consistently good. Right in the middle and I don’t want to shut myself down for a lifetime of T therapy.

2. TRT in the U.K. is a major ball ache. And the services provided are medieval compared to the US.

HERES THE BIG QUESTION.

I got hold of some T gel from abroad when I was feeling curious. I have experimented. And I have noticed that if I dose myself 3 clicks occasionally, it has a huge positive impact on my mental health for up to three weeks. Anxiety gone, motivation up, concentration vastly improved, generally feeling smooth and stable. Other T benefits come and go very quickly. Within a day or two. But after 3 clicks of 2% gel, my mental state is great for a week, then tapers in the second week. Even the third week, although not 100%, is still better than baseline. 4th week and I’m struggling.

SO…

That has me wondering. What is the maximum possible dosing frequency to avoid shutdown? Once a week, surely I’d end up crashing myself and even lower. Once every two weeks? I could definitely get away with once every 3 weeks. Hell, I’d even be happy with once a month so that the best part of the month I’m productive and focussed. Worst comes to worse, I’d settle for the absolute minimum frequency to avoid shutdown, in order to get a few good weeks here and there, or on demand. But there is very little information on what you can take and how often to avoid shutdown.

Any ideas?

Formulation, PK/half-life, dose, frequency!

Tell me what impact you really think dosing T-gel once weekly would have on your hpta short let alone long-term!

Look over the threads in this post.

Got Test results after 3 months 1% T-Gel . . . very rattled!

I'm 68 and was diagnosed in December with lower T at 314, hematocrit at 47. I decided together with the Endocrinologist to go with his suggestion of 5gms 1% T Gel, the regular starting dose. Fast forward to my first blood test taken yesterday after applying the gel regularly for 3 months. And...

www.excelmale.com

Better yet I will make it easier for you here.

Safe to try Androgel for a few months n stop it it doesn’t work?

I was wondering if I could get everyones opinion and ideas on this. Dr. Recommended Androgel to try for a few months and see if it helps with fatigue and brain fog. He said I could try it for a few months and if I see no improvement, I could stop and it shouldn’t cause any problems. I’m not...

www.excelmale.com

*2-3 days to reach steady-state

*Serum concentrations approximate the steady-state concentration by the end of the first 24 hours and are at steady state by the second or third day of dosing

*When AndroGel 1% treatment is discontinued after achieving steady state, serum testosterone concentrations remain in the normal range for 24 to 48 hours but return to their pretreatment concentrations by the fifth day after the last application

 

[madman]

This might seem stupid, but here me out….

Long story short: I have treatment/lifestyle/therapy resistant depression, mental fatigue, anxiety. You name it, I’ve tried it. Believe me. Both medical and underground. Doctors are at a loss. But one day I decided to try testosterone and….. bam. Total and complete cure. It’s like Robert Deniro in Awakenings haha

BUT I’ve always avoided hoping on since then because:

1. My T levels are consistently good. Right in the middle and I don’t want to shut myself down for a lifetime of T therapy.

2. TRT in the U.K. is a major ball ache. And the services provided are medieval compared to the US.

HERES THE BIG QUESTION.

I got hold of some T gel from abroad when I was feeling curious. I have experimented. And I have noticed that if I dose myself 3 clicks occasionally, it has a huge positive impact on my mental health for up to three weeks. Anxiety gone, motivation up, concentration vastly improved, generally feeling smooth and stable. Other T benefits come and go very quickly. Within a day or two. But after 3 clicks of 2% gel, my mental state is great for a week, then tapers in the second week. Even the third week, although not 100%, is still better than baseline. 4th week and I’m struggling.

SO…

That has me wondering. What is the maximum possible dosing frequency to avoid shutdown? Once a week, surely I’d end up crashing myself and even lower. Once every two weeks? I could definitely get away with once every 3 weeks. Hell, I’d even be happy with once a month so that the best part of the month I’m productive and focussed. Worst comes to worse, I’d settle for the absolute minimum frequency to avoid shutdown, in order to get a few good weeks here and there, or on demand. But there is very little information on what you can take and how often to avoid shutdown.

Any ideas?

As I stated in a previous thread although trt can improve mild depression, anxiety, and overall well-being it is highly doubtful that it will have a big impact on treating MDD.

Keep in mind that even men with healthy testosterone levels can still suffer from mild, moderate, or severe depression.

Does depression from low testosterone feel different from "regular" depression?

Hi! I been struggling with ptsd and depression for a few years as a result of years of working as a first responder. I sought different ways to fix it however they work temporarily. Two weeks ago I got some blood work done and my testosterone came back low the doctor referred me to a men's...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

This reminds me of a thread from maybe 6 months ago where someone got great results from injecting every three weeks IIRC. Just because we don't know exactly how it works doesn't mean there might not be something to this approach, so thanks to OP for posting his experience. This is what citizen-science is all about.

 

[Dr.V.P.C.]

This is actually very feasible , and nowadays is quite conventional for some men ( mainly younger ) to preserve htp axis and do testosterone treatment with inttermitent transdermal cream altogheter with some clomiphene stimulation at adequate dosages .

 

[madman]

This reminds me of a thread from maybe 6 months ago where someone got great results from injecting every three weeks IIRC. Just because we don't know exactly how it works doesn't mean there might not be something to this approach, so thanks to OP for posting his experience. This is what citizen-science is all about.

What the guy with that raving libido that was on T for a measly 8 weeks and had only done 2 shots T (200 mg T) every 3 weeks!

LMFAO!

Where is the OP at now?

Never heard a peep from him after the protocol was picked apart.

Is he still on the same protocol raving about the same benefits?

Get back to me when you find out if he put the time in following such protocol and if he is still kicking around with that raging libido or better yet how great he truly feels overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms.

Throw in those body composition benefits too LOL!

Here I will post up the link so you can give people something to chew on!

Make sure you spend the time to read over everyones replies including mine.

Drastic increase in libido - currently multi-orgasmic to an extreme - any experience with this?

Now a couple months after starting TRT, I have become extremely multi-orgasmic. I mean 6+ full scale ejaculations in a session with many more minor ones. Until now, I have been one-and-done for almost my entire life. My semen is clear and more watery, even the first of the day. I have gone from...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

What the guy with that raving libido that was on T for a measly 8 weeks and had only done 2 shots T (200 mg T) every 3 weeks!

LMFAO!

Where is the OP at now?

Never heard a peep from him after the protocol was picked apart.

Is he still on the same protocol raving about the same benefits?

Get back to me when you find out if he put the time in following such protocol and if he is still kicking around with that raging libido or better yet how great he truly feels overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms.

Throw in those body composition benefits too LOL!

Here I will post up the link so you can give people something to chew on!

Make sure you spend the time to read over everyones replies including mine.

Drastic increase in libido - currently multi-orgasmic to an extreme - any experience with this?

Now a couple months after starting TRT, I have become extremely multi-orgasmic. I mean 6+ full scale ejaculations in a session with many more minor ones. Until now, I have been one-and-done for almost my entire life. My semen is clear and more watery, even the first of the day. I have gone from...

www.excelmale.com

Hopefully he will give us an update no matter how it's going, however your negativity is not helpful. There is a lot we have to learn and overconfidence about what we may think does or does not work, especially for a given individual, is an obstacle for experimentation and learning.

 

[madman]

Hopefully he will give us an update no matter how it's going, however your negativity is not helpful. There is a lot we have to learn and overconfidence about what we may think does or does not work, especially for a given individual, is an obstacle for experimentation and learning.

I'm kicking some reality here.

You clearly lack the understanding of the PKs/half-lifes esterified T.

Even then tread lightly stating.....This reminds me of a thread from maybe 6 months ago where someone got great results from injecting every three weeks IIRC.

At least fill everyone in on the details before making it sound as if this protocol was truly a success!

One would never derive the full beneficial effects of having healthy FT levels let alone the positive effects on body composition (increased muscle/fat loss) injecting 200 mg TC/TE once every 3 weeks!

No doctor with any sense in their head treating a man for low-t would put a man on such protocol!

Pure nonsense!

Now if we are talking natties here looking for a temporary short-lived burst in T (energy, mood, libido) then nasal T-gel (Natesto) or oral native T is where it's at!

 

[Sergel]

You give us very little and very anecdotal info here... Blood test? What is your free T, SHBG? Estrogen? How old are you?

Placebo effect? What could be happening, you say your total T is mid range, but if you shbg is high you free T is tanked that makes that midrange T not vey useful... Maybe, the small shot of t will give you a very short rise in free t? But it just does not make sense much... You need data... get some blood tests...

The other thing I don't get is that you say your life sucks balls without T but you are not willing to go on T ... My 2 cents on this is that if you play with T, gel, pill, injection or cream... you are on T ... ad it will have an effect on your indigenous T production... Hormones are not something that is easy to play with... my simple advice is if you are going to do it, do it properly and know why you are doing it (after analysing test data...)

Long term, I just don't see this as a strategy...

YMMV...

 

[BadassBlues]

Amazing after all these years that the topic of testosterone can still generate so much passionate dialog.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that the occasional bump in T levels could be beneficial for some guys. Dosing yourself for romantic weekend or prior to a strenuous activity could yield positive results for some.

This would not cause any kind of permanent shutdown of the HPTA. It would cause a temporary shutdown until it completely cleared your system, which would depend on the ester of the T. The downside would be the gradual return to normal function, which would also depend on the individual.

The hangover effect could prove unpleasant for a few days, but it would pass.

 

[ghce]

Check this out if you haven't seen it yet: https://www.maximustribe.com/white-paper/oral-trt

1327 ng/dL Total T, 38.3 ng/dL Free T, high-normal LH and FSH (higher than baseline)

Thats very interesting, shame there is no date on the study.
Has there been other discussion on this trial?
Would be a great new tool in the tool box if this became available for sure.

 

[Sergel]

Thats very interesting, shame there is no date on the study.
Has there been other discussion on this trial?
Would be a great new tool in the tool box if this became available for sure.

From the paper:
A low dose of oral testosterone undecanoate, dosed at 40 mg three times daily, combined with tamoxifen citrate, dosed at 10 mg twice daily, showed no adverse effects on pituitary or Leydig cell activity,

I don't think I would want to be on that long term... no? 20mg of Tamoxifen a day... ouch.