Hourly Intraday testosterone profiles in young eugonadal (healthy functional) men (1973-1983)

[tareload]

24 Hour TT Profiles in Young, Healthy Functional Men [1973-1983]

TLDR (great suggestion by @kazuya_mishima1): Danny and the TOT folks are mistaken to put it politely with respect to pharmacokinetics and dose response of injectable exogeneous testosterone. They act like it’s some mystery how you will respond to injectable testosterone. It really isn’t and...

forums.t-nation.com

Enjoy. There's no way I am copying these graphs again so sorry you have to view this on another site.

I reached way back for you guys. 1970s-1980s back when we had "REAL" men [sarcasm]. Purposely went back to early days with RIA to remove any obstacle that ref ranges today and guys today aren't applicable in terms of peak TT levels.

 

[tareload]

There's no way I am copying these graphs again so sorry you have to view this on another site.

Ok, what the hell.

References in link above:

Check out subject III...

Check out subject SFD and also mean of the subjects:

Daily variation of max intraday TT levels:

Notice anything strange?


Yes, correct. SFD’s INTRADAY PEAK is what many today have for a WEEKLY TROUGH (200-250 mg/week TC E7D):

10mg of Test a Day

Corrected for testosterone amount in the ester, of course you can. A human doesn’t eliminate free endogenous testosterone any different than they would eliminate free exogenously introduced testosterone. Ask yourself, what is being referred to here? Danny gets 1000 ng/dl where on 250 mg/week...

forums.t-nation.com

 

[Systemlord]

1970s-1980s back when we had "REAL" men [sarcasm].

I was born in 1972, so I guess this means...[sarcasm]

 

[tareload]

What is TRT and What is NOT TRT

Example from the 1970s: Circadian TT fluctuation… Notice subject SFD. He is at the “pinnacle of manliness”, when men were men in terms of TT levels. Here’s his daily variation with respect to max TT every day… Notice anything strange? Yes, correct. SFD’s INTRADAY PEAK is what many...

forums.t-nation.com

 

[Charliebizz]

I’ve talked to danny before and he told me my labs are absolutely useless if I don’t test trough only lol. I think testing peak and in the middle is also very important. I personally have way more problems with the too high of a peak then if my numbers get too low. It’s like when I use the scrotal cream. I know without testing my levels are sky high. And I get all sorts of side effects

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I wonder if the graphs above take into account meal times (a raise in insulin lowers T). I bet they did not control for factors like sleep duration etc. The only way to do so accurately is to keep all subjects in a "metabolic ward" for days.

Interesting to see the intraday variations. That is why guidelines recommend at least two early morning measurements of testosterone before deciding if someone is hypogonadal.

It is also very interesting to see how everyone is so different!

 

[Nelson Vergel]

On injections:

Variance in Peak and Trough T Levels in Men Using Intramuscular T Injections

MP85-14 VARIANCE IN PEAK AND TROUGH TESTOSTERONE LEVELS IN MEN USING INTRAMUSCULAR TESTOSTERONE Bruno Nascimento*, Helen L Bernie, Elizabeth Schofield, John P. Mulhall, New York, NY INTRODUCTION AND OBJECTIVES In men using intramuscular testosterone (IM T), clinical experience shows us that...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Different treatments:

Comparison of Testosterone Blood Concentrations from Different TRT Products Versus Normal Diurnal Variations

Abstract Background: To improve symptoms associated with testosterone deficiency (TD), many testosterone therapies (TTh) are available that aim to restore serum testosterone (T) levels to the normal physiologic range. The magnitude, frequency, and duration between peak and trough T...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Monthly Variations in Testosterone Levels: Results from 8,367 Middle-Aged Men

Monthly Variations in Serum Testosterone Levels: Results from 8,367 Middle-Aged Men Jun Ho Lee 1, Sung Won Lee 2 J Urol. 2020 Dec 22;101097JU0000000000001546. doi: 10.1097/JU.0000000000001546. Online ahead of print. Abstract Purpose: We investigated whether serum testosterone levels vary...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Systemlord]

It is also very interesting to see how everyone is so different!

Yet are all treated the same, <300 ng/dL.

 

[tareload]

Yet are all treated the same, <300 ng/dL.

24 Hour TT Profiles in Young, Healthy Functional Men [1973-1983]

Thank you for taking the time to discuss. It is difficult in this medium on something as tedious as this. Regarding how you restated the claim. I am not claiming they are taking too much testosterone. What I am claiming is this: I think that the current lab ranges for total t and free t...

forums.t-nation.com

Related discussion:

I’m not sure why you can’t understand what I’m saying. Tell me if I’m accurate in what I think you’re claiming. You think that the current lab ranges for total t and free t should be applied to men on exogenous testosterone, as far as to show that if someone on exogenous testosterone tests higher than the top of the range at trough, then that person is taking too much testosterone.

Thank you for taking the time to discuss. It is difficult in this medium on something as tedious as this.

Regarding how you restated the claim. I am not claiming they are taking too much testosterone. What I am claiming is this:

I think that the current lab ranges for total t and free t can and should be applied to men on exogenous testosterone in terms of risk/benefit and standard of care, as far as to show that if someone on exogenous testosterone tests higher than the top of the range at trough, then that person is exceeding physiological reference range for humans on a consistent basis. They should understand that and the relative risk before continuing this type of treatment.

In fact, I’ll go a step further and state that

even if their trough isn’t above top of range (let’s say it is 600 or 800 ng/dl trough), they still may be subjecting themselves to an androgen profile that is outside their individual reference range. Because we don’t have the genetic tools available yet to determine this individual range, the population reference range is the only guide posts we have plus some CAG repeat studies. However, 1200 ng/dl is a reasonable top end estimate of natural male peak TT level. In no way does 1200 ng/dl represent an accurate top end estimate of natural functional male mean level or trough level that should be applied to 95% cross section of patients in the process of optimization.

Also the individual reference range that maximizes QOL/longevity appears to be a function of age based on what we know at the moment. 1000 ng/dl may be appropriate for 25 year old version of you, maybe not for the 55 YO version of you. These are subtle points that one should consider so you don’t wreck yourself in the process of trying to optimize.

Graph below shows TT level for symptom resolution may be individual on the lower end of range and the patient needs to understand the unknowns potentially lurking near the high end of the range (300-1200 ng/dl).




Of course everyone is free to seek the treatment they want and I support them. Thanks for taking the time to work through this with me.

 

[tareload]

I wonder if the graphs above take into account meal times (a raise in insulin lowers T). I bet they did not control for factors like sleep duration etc. The only way to do so accurately is to keep all subjects in a "metabolic ward" for days.

Interesting to see the intraday variations. That is why guidelines recommend at least two early morning measurements of testosterone before deciding if someone is hypogonadal.

It is also very interesting to see how everyone is so different!

I will look it up for you. This is the biggest assortment of intraday profiles I ever pulled. Good questions. Still looking for those 1500-1800 ng/dl real men back in the day.

Unfortunately that may have been 20, 000 years ago before they were measuring hormone levels and definitely before RIA came about in the 1970s for commercial use.

Debunking the TOT people is getting old. I must find a new hobby.

 

[tareload]

I will look it up for you. This is the biggest assortment of intraday profiles I ever pulled. Good questions. Still looking for those 1500-1800 ng/dl real men back in the day.

Unfortunately that may have been 20, 000 years ago before they were measuring hormone levels and definitely before RIA came about in the 1970s for commercial use.

Debunking the TOT people is getting old. I must find a new hobby.

@Nelson Vergel if you click on the link on the first post I have the methods for each paper pasted in along with the results. So for the graphs above most of the studies did control for sleep and testing was done on site at medical center via cannula. Have a look.

There are some plots that show effect of messed up sleep for an individual.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Still looking for those 1500-1800 ng/dl real men back in the day.

LOL, what? No war on men?

 

[tareload]

LOL, what? No war on men?

I can't find any upper reference range since 1970 above 1300 ng/dl. Commercial wide spread use of RIA for TT starting in early 1970s.

1984:


1980:



1970:

 

[MIP1950]

I looked through all that you posted and for me, graphs and charts can be overwhelming. I understand the point to look back at androgen levels 40 to 50 years ago for a comparison. However, for me, what I think is being overlooked, is that when we were younger or just young, (I'm 72), our bodies were efficiently synthesizing pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA, a wide variety of neuropeptides, growth hormone, as well as testosterone, DHT and estradiol. Our thyroid, adrenals, pituitary and hypothalamus were optimally functioning.

None of us have a snapshot of our neuroendocrine system when we were 18 or 25 or 35. We just functioned. We got erections, we had restorative sleep, we had energy. We just lived and went about with our lives. For myself, testosterone hasn't brought any significant improvements. I know, too, from my reading, that for some men, it can take years; 2 to 5 years on injections to reverse metabolic syndrome, to bring about weight loss, to improve sleep and to restore erectile function. Yes, those men are likely extreme and rare cases.

I do wish that testosterone, alone, would have brought about significant improvements in all aspects of my health, but I haven't seen it. It's frustrating and it vexes my urologist who has decades of experience in TRT/HRT. Not throwing in the towel. Just coming at this from a different perspective, utilizing pregnenolone and DHEA.

Oral pregnenolone as hormone replacement therapy (HRT) in humans​

• Thread starter haidut
• Start date Dec 22, 2020
• Tags growth hormone hgh hrt hypogonadism oral p5 pregnenolone steroidopenia

 

[tareload]

However, for me, what I think is being overlooked, is that when we were younger or just young, (I'm 72), our bodies were efficiently synthesizing pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA, a wide variety of neuropeptides, growth hormone, as well as testosterone, DHT and estradiol. Our thyroid, adrenals, pituitary and hypothalamus were optimally functioning.

Thank you for this. It is not more T that may be required to solve the issues. And in fact will we ever be able to solve aging related symptoms? All my work was to refute this pitch we get often (without the data and references) that all you need is T and that the good ole days had 2000 ng/dl TT dudes.

 

[MIP1950]

You're welcome. I'm not a critic of high TT. For some men, having a high TT and free T seems to be the only way they physically/sexually function. Cellular resistance is cited as the culprit, as it is with psychiatrists prescribing high dose T3 or T4 or both for patients with intractable depression or bipolar.

The 'bro science' about men decades ago having high testosterone is such bullshit. It's just an assumption based on anecdotes which are more myth and than fact. If a guy says his grandfather was still banging grandma at 80, that isn't objective evidence that grandpa had a supraphysiologic testosterone level. Erectile function is more complicated than that. It does appear to be objectively true that men's testosterone levels have been declining over the past 40 or 50 years. More chemicals in the air, water, food sounds plausible. Our livers might be overworked trying to filter out ever increasing amounts of endocrine disrupting chemicals and there probably are still amounts of it in our body fat.

 

[MIP1950]

@readalot/I read an article several years ago about the 'Blue Zones where people live well into their 90's and even 100's. The article focused on the Greek island of Ikarias. Though the residents aren't pure vegetarians, their diet, according to the article, was mostly vegetarian;beans, vegetables, fruit, whole wheat flour. They also drank goat's milk, ate goat milk yogurt, made their own wine, drank herbal tea, daily. An epidemiologist interviewed several men in their late 80's into their 90's and she asked about sexual function. To a man, they all said they had regular sex(which could be weekly to twice a month, to monthly, IDK) and to her questioning, most of those men indicated, in their own way, that they were able to orgasm. Maybe with the men interviewed, it was more about the desire for their wives and vice versa, than about testosterone level. Being with someone who has physical desire I'd say is paramount. Nothing like being with a woman who could care less or tells you that.

Switching gears, I was reading patient reviews of Cialis and Vardanifil. One guy on the latter drug was 96! He said, paraphrasing, "I know I'm not going to around too much longer and I want to have some fun." Good for him! That's the absolutely right attitude. Some of us have wives who've given up on sex nor are they interested to have their hormones checked(my wife on both counts) but if I acquiesce to that attitude, that will shorten my life. I want to have my erections, even if my wife is no longer interested. It's about my emotional and physical well being. It's about being a man.

 

[tareload]

@readalot/I read an article several years ago about the 'Blue Zones where people live well into their 90's and even 100's. The article focused on the Greek island of Ikarias. Though the residents aren't pure vegetarians, their diet, according to the article, was mostly vegetarian;beans, vegetables, fruit, whole wheat flour. They also drank goat's milk, ate goat milk yogurt, made their own wine, drank herbal tea, daily. An epidemiologist interviewed several men in their late 80's into their 90's and she asked about sexual function. To a man, they all said they had regular sex(which could be weekly to twice a month, to monthly, IDK) and to her questioning, most of those men indicated, in their own way, that they were able to orgasm. Maybe with the men interviewed, it was more about the desire for their wives and vice versa, than about testosterone level. Being with someone who has physical desire I'd say is paramount. Nothing like being with a woman who could care less or tells you that.

Switching gears, I was reading patient reviews of Cialis and Vardanifil. One guy on the latter drug was 96! He said, paraphrasing, "I know I'm not going to around too much longer and I want to have some fun." Good for him! That's the absolutely right attitude. Some of us have wives who've given up on sex nor are they interested to have their hormones checked(my wife on both counts) but if I acquiesce to that attitude, that will shorten my life. I want to have my erections, even if my wife is no longer interested. It's about my emotional and physical well being. It's about being a man.

Been there. All there is to do is farm, herd, make out a living, and do it. Very rugged place. And the beaches. Great place to drop off the face of the earth . Also smoking. Greeks get great power from the cigarette like Superman from the yellow sun!

Here, this may help (look at the tertiles). Not exactly TOT level are they? "High" considered above 407 ng/dl.

Low Total Testosterone Levels are Associated With the Metabolic Syndrome in Elderly Men: The Role of Body Weight, Lipids, Insulin Resistance, and Inflammation; The Ikaria Study

BACKGROUND: The prevalence of the metabolic syndrome (MetS) increases with age. Among other changes, testosterone levels decline with age. The relationship between testosterone levels and MetS components in older subjects has not been clearly defined ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

On the 2nd paragraph, I understand you completely!