High estradiol / Hematocrit: What supplements to avoid?

[FeelingLost]

I tried the search I even surfed this forum folder and the Nutrition and Supplements forum but nothing jumped out at me.

Do we have a list of supplements to avoid/ stop taking when starting TRT or on TRT and have bad blood numbers?

On my blood test my TT was 653ng/dL however my E2 was 62.8(non sen test), prolactin was 16.6
Researching my supplements I found I was taking several that promoted E2 Estrogen production like Pregnenolone.
Researching my supplements I found I was taking several that promoted Hemoglobin / Hematocrit production like B-12.

It would be great if a new TRT patient had a list with recommendations of supplements to avoid for high E2, prolactin, Hemoglobin / Hematocrit.

I don't want to just ask my doc for Arimidex or Dostinex or donate blood if I am doing something stupid by taking a supplement/vitamic/mineral/noontropic/OTC Steroid now that I am on a trt program and exacerbating my E2, prolactin or hematocrit.

 

[Vince]

my E2 was 62.8(non sen test),you really don't know what your estradiol levels are at without the Sensitive Estradiol Test.

 

[Vince Carter]

SO eliminate things one by one and keep pulling a CBC each time, you'll find out if one of those is perhaps aggravating things but HGB/HCT are the price of admission in TRT and so chasing around those things is rather futile. E2 is another story, as Vince said, you used the wrong test and the numbers you have aren't worth anything. I dont think you really have to have Pregnenolone as a aggravating factor here.

 

[FeelingLost]

my E2 was 62.8(non sen test),you really don't know what your estradiol levels are at without the Sensitive Estradiol Test.

SO eliminate things one by one and keep pulling a CBC each time, you'll find out if one of those is perhaps aggravating things but HGB/HCT are the price of admission in TRT and so chasing around those things is rather futile. E2 is another story, as Vince said, you used the wrong test and the numbers you have aren't worth anything. I dont think you really have to have Pregnenolone as a aggravating factor here.

Hi Vince and Vince Carter, Thank you for responding to my questions. I truely do respect and trust your input.
I am a sports checkup away from becoming a Defy patient and I will get the sen E2 test then. That said,

I find it very hard to believe the old E2 test is worthless.
We are talking about a snapshot ball park kind of value that fluxuates all day long. We would be lucky if the measurement was with in 20% accurate of our average E2.
The rest of the TRT world has and is using the old test just fine to get an idea of where their E2 is.
It really does bother me how much you old time excel forum members slam the new members about this test. A test a forum sponsor invented. I'm sure it is more accurate that doesn't make the old test worthless.

Sorry about the rant, been holding it in for a while, I know you think you are helping the sponsor but IMO you are chasing future members/patients way. I almost left the group do to reading that advice over and over and over.
Rant over I promise. I'm blaming my worthless E2 measurement of 62pg/mL HaHa

@Vince Carter, I do understand your logic of eliminating something one at a time and testing to find the culprit, that is an excellent troubleshoot practice, however if ones blood test clearly shows you are not anemic why would you take any supplements to build your blood and could possibly hurt yout TRT program?

 

[lowe2sucks]

FeelingLost I ve seen somebody did both e2 regular and e2 sensitive at same blood draw and the difference was pretty big.. so it's safe to say that e2 sensitive is needed for proper evaluation of bloodwork. if regular will say you are 20 points higher then sensitive e2 it's pretty big difference, you may think you need an AI when you actually don't and mess up your protocol
by the way pregnenolone is not estrogenic
infact it's estrogen antagonist (not agonist) and I can confirm it's anti estrogenic effects from personal experience
"...As shown in Fig. 3, a 100-fold increase in oestradiol production was evident in cell culture containing FSH and testosterone during induction. All the other steroids were ineffective as substrates for aromatase. Similarly, during the test period the synthesis of oestradiol was significantly (p<0.05) enhanced in cells previously exposed to testosterone (160%) or DES (25%) and FSH, when compared with that of the FSH-stimulated ones. However, the presence of pregnenolone, progesterone and DHT (during the induction) significantly (p<0.05) decreased the FSH-induced aromatization of testosterone."
"...Estrogen is antagonized by Delta-5-pregnenolone (155) and by progesterone (156); the two have different effects on Plalypoecilus maculatus (157). Estrogen induces mating in spayed adrenalectomized rats (158). When given with progesterone, it induces endometrial hyperplasia in diabetics (159), but it causes an inconstant luteinizing reaction in ovaries of normal individuals (160). It produces changes in the human vaginal smear in the following order of effectiveness; stilbestrol, estrone, estriol (161)."

In addition, pregenolone sulfate is capable of inhibiting both estrone-sulfatase and 17a-HSD, which are responsible for the synthesis of estrone and estradiol respectively. Pharma drugs that target inhibition of these two enzymes are in clinical trials for breast cancer.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Hi Vince and Vince Carter, Thank you for responding to my questions. I truely do respect and trust your input.
I am a sports checkup away from becoming a Defy patient and I will get the sen E2 test then. That said,

I find it very hard to believe the old E2 test is worthless.
We are talking about a snapshot ball park kind of value that fluxuates all day long. We would be lucky if the measurement was with in 20% accurate of our average E2.
The rest of the TRT world has and is using the old test just fine to get an idea of where their E2 is.
It really does bother me how much you old time excel forum members slam the new members about this test. A test a forum sponsor invented. I'm sure it is more accurate that doesn't make the old test worthless.

Sorry about the rant, been holding it in for a while, I know you think you are helping the sponsor but IMO you are chasing future members/patients way. I almost left the group do to reading that advice over and over and over.
Rant over I promise. I'm blaming my worthless E2 measurement of 62pg/mL HaHa

@Vince Carter, I do understand your logic of eliminating something one at a time and testing to find the culprit, that is an excellent troubleshoot practice, however if ones blood test clearly shows you are not anemic why would you take any supplements to build your blood and could possibly hurt yout TRT program?

I have to take issue with your assertion that a "forum sponsor" invented the sensitive (LC, MS/MS) estradiol test. Defy Medical? Prime Body? Empower Pharmacy or Discountedlabs.com? There is no truth in that statement and none of us are trying to help that sponsor (whichever one you have in mind) by urging members to test with that particular lab methodology.

I live in what you refer to as "the rest of the TRT world," and as a Canadian I can assure you that patients and doctors here don't believe we're getting along "just fine" with the standard test. As my doctor has said many times, "I know only that I don't know what my patients are presenting with when it comes to estradiol." It's for that very reason that I travel to the States for e2 monitoring.

 

[FeelingLost]

FeelingLost I ve seen somebody did both e2 regular and e2 sensitive at same blood draw and the difference was pretty big.. so it's safe to say that e2 sensitive is needed for proper evaluation of bloodwork. if regular will say you are 20 points higher then sensitive e2 it's pretty big difference, you may think you need an AI when you actually don't and mess up your protocol
by the way pregnenolone is not estrogenic
infact it's estrogen antagonist (not agonist) and I can confirm it's anti estrogenic effects from personal experience
"...As shown in Fig. 3, a 100-fold increase in oestradiol production was evident in cell culture containing FSH and testosterone during induction. All the other steroids were ineffective as substrates for aromatase. Similarly, during the test period the synthesis of oestradiol was significantly (p<0.05) enhanced in cells previously exposed to testosterone (160%) or DES (25%) and FSH, when compared with that of the FSH-stimulated ones. However, the presence of pregnenolone, progesterone and DHT (during the induction) significantly (p<0.05) decreased the FSH-induced aromatization of testosterone."
"...Estrogen is antagonized by Delta-5-pregnenolone (155) and by progesterone (156); the two have different effects on Plalypoecilus maculatus (157). Estrogen induces mating in spayed adrenalectomized rats (158). When given with progesterone, it induces endometrial hyperplasia in diabetics (159), but it causes an inconstant luteinizing reaction in ovaries of normal individuals (160). It produces changes in the human vaginal smear in the following order of effectiveness; stilbestrol, estrone, estriol (161)."

In addition, pregenolone sulfate is capable of inhibiting both estrone-sulfatase and 17a-HSD, which are responsible for the synthesis of estrone and estradiol respectively. Pharma drugs that target inhibition of these two enzymes are in clinical trials for breast cancer.

Hi lowE2sucks,
I thought pregnenolone was a precursor to all steroid hormones that including progesterone, estrogen, androgens like testosterone, and cortisol.So essentially, pregnenolone is a building block the body uses to maintain healthy hormone levels across the board. It's sort of the “mother” of all hormones, you could say. So I assumed more pregnenolone allowed more T to be converted to E2. I stand corrected. But I'm still not going to take anymore until I know more about it.

 

[Vince Carter]

Hi Vince and Vince Carter, Thank you for responding to my questions. I truely do respect and trust your input.
I am a sports checkup away from becoming a Defy patient and I will get the sen E2 test then. That said,

I find it very hard to believe the old E2 test is worthless.
We are talking about a snapshot ball park kind of value that fluxuates all day long. We would be lucky if the measurement was with in 20% accurate of our average E2.
The rest of the TRT world has and is using the old test just fine to get an idea of where their E2 is.
It really does bother me how much you old time excel forum members slam the new members about this test. A test a forum sponsor invented. I'm sure it is more accurate that doesn't make the old test worthless.

Sorry about the rant, been holding it in for a while, I know you think you are helping the sponsor but IMO you are chasing future members/patients way. I almost left the group do to reading that advice over and over and over.
Rant over I promise. I'm blaming my worthless E2 measurement of 62pg/mL HaHa

@Vince Carter, I do understand your logic of eliminating something one at a time and testing to find the culprit, that is an excellent troubleshoot practice, however if ones blood test clearly shows you are not anemic why would you take any supplements to build your blood and could possibly hurt yout TRT program?

Well it's designed for females, even Quest Diagnostics prints on the ROCHE ECLIA lab result that if you're male, that it's the wrong test so you do what you want but you've got too many posts and time on this forum to not know these things.

 

[FeelingLost]

I have to take issue with your assertion that a "forum sponsor" invented the sensitive (LC, MS/MS) estradiol test. Defy Medical? Prime Body? Empower Pharmacy or Discountedlabs.com? There is no truth in that statement and none of us are trying to help that sponsor (whichever one you have in mind) by urging members to test with that particular lab methodology.

I live in what you refer to as "the rest of the TRT world," and as a Canadian I can assure you that patients and doctors here don't believe we're getting along "just fine" with the standard test. As my doctor has said many times, "I know only that I don't know what my patients are presenting with when it comes to estradiol." It's for that very reason that I travel to the States for e2 monitoring.

Alothough I can not find the post I am pretty sure I read it on this forum that a sponsor came up with the sensitive E2 test. If I am wrong I apologize I can assure you I would not just make something like that up. I am new to TRT and have only been on a protocal for 6 months. I do a lot of reading and most of it has been here on this forum and Nelsons youtube channel.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I tried the search I even surfed this forum folder and the Nutrition and Supplements forum but nothing jumped out at me.

Do we have a list of supplements to avoid/ stop taking when starting TRT or on TRT and have bad blood numbers?

On my blood test my TT was 653ng/dL however my E2 was 62.8(non sen test), prolactin was 16.6
Researching my supplements I found I was taking several that promoted E2 Estrogen production like Pregnenolone.
Researching my supplements I found I was taking several that promoted Hemoglobin / Hematocrit production like B-12.

It would be great if a new TRT patient had a list with recommendations of supplements to avoid for high E2, prolactin, Hemoglobin / Hematocrit.

I don't want to just ask my doc for Arimidex or Dostinex or donate blood if I am doing something stupid by taking a supplement/vitamic/mineral/noontropic/OTC Steroid now that I am on a trt program and exacerbating my E2, prolactin or hematocrit.

This is actually a great question!


If your hematocrit is above 50 and you have not donated blood yet: Avoid iron supplements. B-12 may also increase the body's ability to produce red blood cells. Omega-3 fatty acids and a daily baby aspirin could be considered for blood thinning (but they do not replace the need for blood donation/ phlebotomy)

If your estradiol is high: Zinc supplementation may help reduce estradiol in some men. Avoid soy based products. DHEA and/or pregnenolone supplements may increase estradiol.

If your DHT is low or high: Creatine supplementation has been shown to increase DHT.

If your liver enzymes are high: Avoid most supplements that have obscure "proprietary formulas". Also, be aware that resistance exercise can increase ALT and AST but that increase is not clinically significant.

If your creatinine (kidney) is high: Your doctor may ask you to stop creatine supplementation although the increase in creatinine caused by this supplement may not be clinically significant.

If your triglycerides are high: Go easy on the alcohol and sweets. Consider Omega -3 fatty acids. Exercise and TRT decrease triglycerides.


If your HDL is low on TRT: Higher TRT doses decrease good cholesterol (HDL). Niacin and NAC may help.

Testosterone Side Effect Management Table

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

The sensitive estradiol test via LC-MS/MS was most certainly NOT created by any sponsor of ExcelMale (or any other forum for that matter). What makes the "sensitive" estradiol test "sensitive" is the actual lab methodology (liquid chromatography, tandem mass spectometry) which was developed by chemists decades ago.

As to the actual OP question, Nelson's response is on point.