HELP - Doubts about TRT

[Cataceous]

...
What about the long term consequences of low-T?
...

Straw man argument. I challenge you to find anywhere I said hypogonadism should not be treated.

...
I hope you're not trying to insinuate that those 37% of dissatisfied patients are experiencing symptoms related to the TRT shutting down 20+ other hormones.
...

Given the lack of objective data — and the fact that your study pertains to a single institution — I'm free to insinuate that disruption of other hormones figures in the lack of satisfaction with TRT. The disruption itself is unequivocal. The only question is about the extent of the damage over time. I can further argue that hypogonadism is unpleasant enough that any TRT induces satisfaction by comparison, even if there are significant shortcomings. This was the case for me.

In any case, you distract from my main point, which is that hypogonadal men should be started on less disruptive treatments, and only if those fail should they proceed to conventional TRT.

 

[Cataceous]

Andriol I searched for it and apparently the dosage is ridiculous like to take a decent dose, you have to buy 1 bottle per week which comes at crazy expenses.

There no private telehealth clinics in canada that prescribe natesto at this moment and if there are, I missed it then because from time to time I search and don’t find any clear source for it.

Let's ask an expert to comment: @madman, what — affordable — options are there for oral testosterone and nasal gel in Canada?

 

[Systemlord]

I don`t know what you guys think about those people that say that TRT stopped working.

The disease process that lead to the low-T was never addressed, and sometimes people are dealing with idiopathic diseases of unknown origin and going on TRT attempts to circumvent the disease process, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I didn't start reaping the full benefits of TRT until I change my diet and got myself into the gym. Only then did my type 2 diabetes start reversing, which is what caused my low-T in the first place.

TRT wasn't enough on its own to right the ship.

There's a lot of people out there would rather take a pill to fix their problems rather than make lifestyle changes. These people are bound to run into problems on TRT.

 

[BSS91]

The disease process that lead to the low-T was never addressed, and sometimes people are dealing with idiopathic diseases of unknown origin and going on TRT attempts to circumvent the disease process, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I didn't start reaping the full benefits of TRT until I change my diet and got myself into the gym. Only then did my type 2 diabetes start reversing, which is what caused my low-T in the first place.

TRT wasn't enough on its own to right the ship.

There's a lot of people out there would rather take a pill to fix their problems rather than make lifestyle changes. These people are bound to run into problems on TRT.

That is what the optimistic part of me thought.

I say optimistic because I don`t drink and never drank alcohol, don`t smoke and can`t wait to get back to training as my diet is already on point (meat + veggies + fruits) and I love supplements so I actually cycle protocols here and there with the basic ones (most absorbable forms of magnesium, zinc, vitamin D3) and add in other ones like Black cumin extract, ginseng, mucuna, cordyceps and tongkat ali.

I really think that if I had test levels in range I would have an optimal health because I am quite knowledgable in that field as I am also studying to become an osteopath.

Anyway...I am in Canada so DHEA and pregnenolone I hope I won't have to use them and I hope I won't have issues with them as I saw many accounts of that too

 

[madman]

Hi guys,

33 year old male here, for the last 4 years I have tested my testosterone and it always comes back in the lower range (oscillating between 200s and 300s). At the end of last year, it tested even I the low 200s.

I have depression and anxiety since a young age and a few years ago my sudden interest to a healthy lifestyle helped manage that depression. Started going to the gym and started eating healthy as this gave me hope for the future. I don`t smoke and I don`t drink alcohol so that didn`t change for me.

Testosterone has been a subject of interest in those years and I have been training 4 times a week and have had a pretty solid diet: protein, vegetables, fruits, very little bread or grains depending on the period. Sleeping 8 hours approximately and taking the appropriate supplements. I am actually passionate about health and fitness so in these past years I seeked a healthy lifestyle because I always hoped it would help feel better.

This past year has been the hardest, I slowly lost interest and motivation because my body was just breaking down. I am filled with slight injuries in wrists, knees, hips, that makes it hard for me to continue to train and this has just increased my depression and anxiety.

I have been reading about TRT for a few years now and I finally decided to make the jump this month because I just figured it was my last resort. I researched the topic A LOT in these past few years and I decided that if I would start this would be my protocol:

• 90 mg divided in two or three shots per week.
• 500 iu HCG divided in two or three shots per week because I want to maintain fertility since I am married and we want kids in the near future.

Now I came up with this protocol knowing that there is no sure thing with TRT, but this should make things easier to be dialed in.

The issue is, by researching the topic a lot, I came across so many negative accounts on how TRT made things worse, how it is difficult to be dialed in, how it ruined things for people, how the effects would be awesome at the beginning and then VANISH suddenly (another fear of mine is that is working and then suddenly bringing back to this current state where now, I have to continue to inject myself for life otherwise I would crash and feel worse, etc etc etc)

I figured I would maybe do a trial and see if it works for me BUT I am death scared of the crash.

Honestly feeling worse than I do NOW is a BIG NO NO. Like it would be literally hell for me and I can see that even with a proper PCT, people still feel worse for a few weeks.

Now I feel desperate because I was putting lots of hope on this and was actually pretty excited.

The questions I have for you are:

Am I exaggerating? Are these experiences a tiny fraction of the people going on TRT?



Thank you for reading

33 year old male here, for the last 4 years I have tested my testosterone and it always comes back in the lower range (oscillating between 200s and 300s). At the end of last year, it tested even I the low 200s.


Should have a more thorough set of labs done before jumping on TTh.

Blood work should be done for TT, FT, estradiol, SHBG, DHT, prolactin, Vit D, DHEA-S, LH/FSH, PSA, full thyroid panel (TSH, Free T3, Free T4, Reverse T3, antibodies), salivary cortisol (Four Specimens), lipids, CMP, CBC, and CRP.

At the very least you should have tested TT, FT, estradiol, SHBG, prolactin, LH/FSH, full thyroid panel, and cortisol.

When testing testosterone (TT, FT and BAT) blood work needs to be done in the early AM in a fasted state as we want to test at the peak.

If you are into training with weights it would be wise to take a week off and make sure that you are well rested before getting blood work done.

Keep in mind that although TT is important to know FT is what truly matters as it is the active fraction of testosterone responsible for the positive effects.

If your previous tests have your TT 200-300 ng/dL range which is low then your FT is going to be dismal!

This needs to be addressed if you are concerned with improving your quality of life let alone improving your overall health!

As Cataceous stated if you are concerned with maintaining fertility/avoiding shutdown of the hpta then the Nasal T-gel (Natesto) or clomiphene/enclomiphene would be your best bet.

Another option for maintaining fertility would be hCG monotherapy but it will still result in shutdown of the hpta.

Keep in mind that although some may do well using clomiphene/enclomiphene or hCG monotherapy many tend to end up on TTh sooner or later.

These are your options before jumping into full blown TTh using other forms of exogenous T.

You have numerous options as there are different formulations such as pellets, transdermal T gels/creams (big pharma/compounded), oral, nasal and injections.

All of the formulations have advantages/disadvantages.

Transdermal let alone injections are the most common modalities used.

The majority of men are using injectable esterified T.

Most cost effective option let alone one can easily drive up testosterone levels very high!




I have depression and anxiety since a young age and a few years ago my sudden interest to a healthy lifestyle helped manage that depression. Started going to the gym and started eating healthy as this gave me hope for the future. I don`t smoke and I don`t drink alcohol so that didn`t change for me.


This is a big red flag here!

Have you been diagnosed with clinical depression?

My reply from a previous thread may give you some insight when it comes to using/relying on testosterone to treat depression/anxiety.

Need to tread lightly on this one especially if you have been diagnosed with clinical depression.

*Although TRT can improve mild depression, anxiety, and overall well-being it is highly doubtful that it will have a big impact on treating MDD.

*Keep in mind that even men with healthy testosterone levels can still suffer from mild, moderate, or severe depression.

Does depression from low testosterone feel different from "regular" depression?

Hi! I been struggling with ptsd and depression for a few years as a result of years of working as a first responder. I sought different ways to fix it however they work temporarily. Two weeks ago I got some blood work done and my testosterone came back low the doctor referred me to a men's...

www.excelmale.com

I have been reading about TRT for a few years now and I finally decided to make the jump this month because I just figured it was my last resort. I researched the topic A LOT in these past few years and I decided that if I would start this would be my protocol:

• 90 mg divided in two or three shots per week.
• 500 iu HCG divided in two or three shots per week because I want to maintain fertility since I am married and we want kids in the near future.

Now I came up with this protocol knowing that there is no sure thing with TRT, but this should make things easier to be dialed in.


Most men on TTh are injecting 100-200 mg T/week.

The majority of men can easily hit a healthy let alone high trough FT level injecting 100-150 mg T/week especially when split into more frequent injections.

Yes some men may need the higher-end dose 200 mg T/week but this is far from common as in RARE!

Keep in mind running too high a trough FT level can be just as bad in many ways as having too low a trough FT level especially when it comes to libido, erectile function and mood.

Best piece of advice is to start low and go slow on a T only protocol as we want to see how your body reacts to testosterone and where said protocol (dose of T/injection frequency) will have your trough TT, FT and estradiol let alone other critical blood markers such as RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit.

Much easier going up then coming down!

Common starting dose is 100 mg T/week or better yet 100 mg T split twice-weekly (50mg T every 3.5 days)

There will always be time to increase your dose if need be or add in hCG if your are concerned with maintaining fertility and minimizing/preventing testicular atrophy.




The issue is, by researching the topic a lot, I came across so many negative accounts on how TRT made things worse, how it is difficult to be dialed in, how it ruined things for people, how the effects would be awesome at the beginning and then VANISH suddenly (another fear of mine is that is working and then suddenly bringing back to this current state where now, I have to continue to inject myself for life otherwise I would crash and feel worse, etc etc etc)


Valid concerns but keep in mind that forums only represent a small slice of the TTH pie.

Unfortunately many still lack the understanding of how exogenous T works.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but I would not set your expectations too high.

Many are aiming for something that will never be there!

Forget trying to mimic/chase that honeymoon period which gets many hooked when first starting let alone when tweaking a TTh protocol (increasing dose T) or you will end up being sorely disappointed in the long run!

The majority should notice improvements in mood, energy, libido/erectile function, body composition, recovery, and overall well-being once healthy FT levels are achieved but it is far from a given, and to what degree depends on many other factors.

No amount of testosterone is going to overcome a lack of quality sleep, poor diet, excessive stress (mental/physical), and lack of exercise.

Top it off dysfunction thyroid/adrenals can easily hamper the overall effectiveness of a TRT protocol.

Having healthy testosterone levels is only one piece of the puzzle.

Too many are caught up in that more T is better mentality which can easily have one in for a bumpy ride struggling with sides till the cows come home.

Running too high a trough FT level can be just as bad as having too low a FT level in many ways especially when it comes to libido/erectile function let alone mood.

Too many factors are involved especially when it comes to libido/erectile function as they are multifactorial.

Hard to say how one would fare on TTh as it is not so cut and dry.

For some men it can do wonders as in life-changing in many ways, for others they will be better off than before but have nothing to brag about, many may end up struggling with ups/downs for years to come and some will be far worse off.

A pill that could outsell Viagra: New testosterone Rx drug

https://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2022/10/11/testosterone-drug-kyzatrex-hits-market-451261/ Kyzatrex could be a potential blockbuster to treat testosterone deficiency, a severely undertreated disease. Testosterone has been historically perceived as a lifestyle issue for men who want to...

www.excelmale.com

 

[madman]

My friend thank you so much for your message.

Yes as I said, since I researched the topic a lot, the first thing is that I only enquired and did blood tests with private telehealth clinics.

My LH and Fsh were always in the low range and I did a enclomiphene trial twice with no resolvment of symptoms. I researched that also a lot and did a 6.25mg every two days as a start and I suspect it even made me more emotional at a certain point.

Anyway, for the blood tests, I didn’t shy away from asking an shgb add on to the labs because for some reason, canadian clinics think it is not important. I will also ask for dhea and pregenenolone in the future if I decide to do TRT.

For the 70 mg, you know actually it was the thought that soothed me at the beginning, a few weeks ago I was like “i ll just start at 70-80 and assess from there” but then I stumbled on accounts of people starting at those doses and feeling like crap as the weeks went on because they were actually having less test than their low natural levels. It was strange because a healthy natty young male at his epitome should produce 70mg natural so because of the ester, I was thinking that by injecting 70-80 we woulg get approx 50 mg per week and so, this would surely bring more test than my natural test levels….
But then those accounts crushed this logic and I was back to square one: choosing a dose that would less likely make me produce less test than now, which would be aweful and at the same time not too much that it would cause my body to panick at the big surge in testosterone.

This is false!

The average secretion rate of T in a healthy young male is 5-7 mg/day.

Top end would be 10 mg/day and this is rare!

 

[madman]

Andriol I searched for it and apparently the dosage is ridiculous like to take a decent dose, you have to buy 1 bottle per week which comes at crazy expenses.

There no private telehealth clinics in canada that prescribe natesto at this moment and if there are, I missed it then because from time to time I search and don’t find any clear source for it.

Will reply back when I have time.

Oral TU (Andriol) and Nasal T-gel (Natesto) are easily available In Canada through a gp, endo or uro.

Andriol was discontinued but there is a generic version available.

If you live in Ontario they would both be covered by insurance O.H.I.P. (Ontario Health Insurance Plan).

 

[BSS91]

33 year old male here, for the last 4 years I have tested my testosterone and it always comes back in the lower range (oscillating between 200s and 300s). At the end of last year, it tested even I the low 200s.


Should have a more thorough set of labs done before jumping on TTh.

Blood work should be done for TT, FT, estradiol, SHBG, DHT, prolactin, Vit D, DHEA-S, LH/FSH, PSA, full thyroid panel (TSH, Free T3, Free T4, Reverse T3, antibodies), salivary cortisol (Four Specimens), lipids, CMP, CBC, and CRP.

At the very least you should have tested TT, FT, estradiol, SHBG, prolactin, LH/FSH, full thyroid panel, and cortisol.

When testing testosterone (TT, FT and BAT) blood work needs to be done in the early AM in a fasted state as we want to test at the peak.

If you are into training with weights it would be wise to take a week off and make sure that you are well rested before getting blood work done.

Keep in mind that although TT is important to know FT is what truly matters as it is the active fraction of testosterone responsible for the positive effects.

If your previous tests have your TT 200-300 ng/dL range which is low then your FT is going to be dismal!

This needs to be addressed if you are concerned with improving your quality of life let alone improving your overall health!

As Cataceous stated if you are concerned with maintaining fertility/avoiding shutdown of the hpta then the Nasal T-gel (Natesto) or clomiphene/enclomiphene would be your best bet.

Another option for maintaining fertility would be hCG monotherapy but it will still result in shutdown of the hpta.

Keep in mind that although some may do well using clomiphene/enclomiphene or hCG monotherapy many tend to end up on TTh sooner or later.

These are your options before jumping into full blown TTh using other forms of exogenous T.

You have numerous options as there are different formulations such as pellets, transdermal T gels/creams (big pharma/compounded), oral, nasal and injections.

All of the formulations have advantages/disadvantages.

Transdermal let alone injections are the most common modalities used.

The majority of men are using injectable esterified T.

Most cost effective option let alone one can easily drive up testosterone levels very high!




I have depression and anxiety since a young age and a few years ago my sudden interest to a healthy lifestyle helped manage that depression. Started going to the gym and started eating healthy as this gave me hope for the future. I don`t smoke and I don`t drink alcohol so that didn`t change for me.


This is a big red flag here!

Have you been diagnosed with clinical depression?

My reply from a previous thread may give you some insight when it comes to using/relying on testosterone to treat depression/anxiety.

Need to tread lightly on this one especially if you have been diagnosed with clinical depression.

*Although TRT can improve mild depression, anxiety, and overall well-being it is highly doubtful that it will have a big impact on treating MDD.

*Keep in mind that even men with healthy testosterone levels can still suffer from mild, moderate, or severe depression.

Does depression from low testosterone feel different from "regular" depression?

Hi! I been struggling with ptsd and depression for a few years as a result of years of working as a first responder. I sought different ways to fix it however they work temporarily. Two weeks ago I got some blood work done and my testosterone came back low the doctor referred me to a men's...

www.excelmale.com

I have been reading about TRT for a few years now and I finally decided to make the jump this month because I just figured it was my last resort. I researched the topic A LOT in these past few years and I decided that if I would start this would be my protocol:

• 90 mg divided in two or three shots per week.
• 500 iu HCG divided in two or three shots per week because I want to maintain fertility since I am married and we want kids in the near future.

Now I came up with this protocol knowing that there is no sure thing with TRT, but this should make things easier to be dialed in.


Most men on TTh are injecting 100-200 mg T/week.

The majority of men can easily hit a healthy let alone high trough FT level injecting 100-150 mg T/week especially when split into more frequent injections.

Yes some men may need the higher-end dose 200 mg T/week but this is far from common as in RARE!

Keep in mind running too high a trough FT level can be just as bad in many ways as having too low a trough FT level especially when it comes to libido, erectile function and mood.

Best piece of advice is to start low and go slow on a T only protocol as we want to see how your body reacts to testosterone and where said protocol (dose of T/injection frequency) will have your trough TT, FT and estradiol let alone other critical blood markers such as RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit.

Much easier going up then coming down!

Common starting dose is 100 mg T/week or better yet 100 mg T split twice-weekly (50mg T every 3.5 days)

There will always be time to increase your dose if need be or add in hCG if your are concerned with maintaining fertility and minimizing/preventing testicular atrophy.




The issue is, by researching the topic a lot, I came across so many negative accounts on how TRT made things worse, how it is difficult to be dialed in, how it ruined things for people, how the effects would be awesome at the beginning and then VANISH suddenly (another fear of mine is that is working and then suddenly bringing back to this current state where now, I have to continue to inject myself for life otherwise I would crash and feel worse, etc etc etc)


Valid concerns but keep in mind that forums only represent a small slice of the TTH pie.

Unfortunately many still lack the understanding of how exogenous T works.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but I would not set your expectations too high.

Many are aiming for something that will never be there!

Forget trying to mimic/chase that honeymoon period which gets many hooked when first starting let alone when tweaking a TTh protocol (increasing dose T) or you will end up being sorely disappointed in the long run!

The majority should notice improvements in mood, energy, libido/erectile function, body composition, recovery, and overall well-being once healthy FT levels are achieved but it is far from a given, and to what degree depends on many other factors.

No amount of testosterone is going to overcome a lack of quality sleep, poor diet, excessive stress (mental/physical), and lack of exercise.

Top it off dysfunction thyroid/adrenals can easily hamper the overall effectiveness of a TRT protocol.

Having healthy testosterone levels is only one piece of the puzzle.

Too many are caught up in that more T is better mentality which can easily have one in for a bumpy ride struggling with sides till the cows come home.

Running too high a trough FT level can be just as bad as having too low a FT level in many ways especially when it comes to libido/erectile function let alone mood.

Too many factors are involved especially when it comes to libido/erectile function as they are multifactorial.

Hard to say how one would fare on TTh as it is not so cut and dry.

For some men it can do wonders as in life-changing in many ways, for others they will be better off than before but have nothing to brag about, many may end up struggling with ups/downs for years to come and some will be far worse off.

A pill that could outsell Viagra: New testosterone Rx drug

https://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2022/10/11/testosterone-drug-kyzatrex-hits-market-451261/ Kyzatrex could be a potential blockbuster to treat testosterone deficiency, a severely undertreated disease. Testosterone has been historically perceived as a lifestyle issue for men who want to...

www.excelmale.com

Hi,

Thanks for your message.

I tested my LH, FSH, estradiol and thyroid (T3, T4, etc) and all markers are in range.

My LH and FSH are in the low range and that is why I tried two cycles of enclomiphene without success. No symptom relief and I even became a bit more emotional.

I am conscious that T levels increasing do not equally mean to remove depression and anxiety. However, since I can`t workout as before, and workouts use to give me a bit of relief in that sense, I hope it will help me go back in my journey. I am full of slight issues in my joints, nagging injuries whereas I see others training more and having twice or triple the results that I managed to have. Never started training for physical results, more for the mental side with the feel good endorphins after the sessions, but when you do a 4 times per week training schedule (I vary things, in frequency and types of training) for years and still no physical change, you start asking yourself questions, especially when my diet is always worked on.

I tried tweaking everything, last year for example I did a sleep study and have a cpap machine for a year now with very slight improvement.

For the depression since a young age, thinking about it now made me realise that I always had a mild but very manageable depression. I was still able to have friends, have great moments, etc etc


So this is what I am left with: Depression and anxiety got worse with age, joint worse, while at the same time despite the fact that I started a health optimization journey in the past five years with not only NO IMPROVEMENTS, but I am even worse now, with injuries and a fragile mental state. It is honestly nerve wracking. It is not like I can say ``maybe I over trained``. Like, I am passionate about this, so I always research and try to optimize. Did my own programs with weight training, cardio, tried kickboxing, di the 3 times per week, the 4 times, the 5 times per week, etc etc etc I always thought ``okay maybe I should change this, maybe I should tweak that, etc``


TRT is absolutely not a first choice in mind, at this point I don`t know what to do else.

 

[BSS91]

This is false!

The average secretion rate of T in a healthy young male is 5-7 mg/day.

Top end would be 10 mg/day and this is rare!

Yes, when I say ``healthy young male at his epitome`` means ``top end young male``.

Don`t know what is false there, I didn`t say that the average young male has 70 mg per week, I am aware that I am talking about the ``epitome``.

I thought maybe I got the meaning of epitome wrong but this is what google confirms:

``a person or thing that is a perfect example of a particular quality or type.``

So for me this means, an almost perfect version of a young male.

 

[BSS91]

Will reply back when I have time.

Oral TU (Andriol) and Nasal T-gel (Natesto) are easily available In Canada through a gp, endo or uro.

Andriol was discontinued but there is a generic version available.

If you live in Ontario they would both be covered by insurance O.H.I.P. (Ontario Health Insurance Plan).

Andriol sounded a great option but what about the dosage thing, apparently it is severly underdosed like 40 mg a pill, and people saying to have a decent dose that changes something physiologically, you need too many capsules and end up having to buy multiple bottles per month.

 

[BSS91]

@madman, what is your protocol and in your profile photo you seem like `Vigorous Steve```s brother.

Also, do you think that someone in my case, with no apparent underlying issue, can benefit from a healthy and stable trt protocol? Of course nothing is for sure but I really want to start the hcg and that is why I figured that starting low with 500 iu divided in 3 shots or even 4 if possible would produce the least side effects and then increase from there if possible

 

[Melody68]

PM sent

 

[Systemlord]

Of course nothing is for sure but I really want to start the hcg and that is why I figured that starting low with 500 iu divided in 3 shots or even 4 if possible would produce the least side effects and then increase from there if possible

HCG typically has more side effects than TRT. Some men can't tolerate hCG at any dosage.

 

[BSS91]

HCG typically has more side effects than TRT. Some men can't tolerate hCG at any dosage.

I really hope I am not one of those because otherwise don’t know what I will do fertility wise.

Hmg and fsh are super expensive and not widely available in canada

 

[Mastodont]

Why not just start off with hcg mono then, and see where it takes your levels, you will have a better picture of your balls capabilities?

 

[BSS91]

Why not just start off with hcg mono then, and see where it takes your levels, you will have a better picture of your balls capabilities?

Honestly that was one of my first options and it even gave me enthousiasm but after many research, I concluded that it was useless.

HCG monotherapy doesn`t work long term, because of side effects, most of positive experiences end up in a bad note where the person has to stop, and you end up being suppressed so the ratio between cost and benefit is mediocre.

 

[Mastodont]

Honestly that was one of my first options and it even gave me enthousiasm but after many research, I concluded that it was useless.

HCG monotherapy doesn`t work long term, because of side effects, most of positive experiences end up in a bad note where the person has to stop, and you end up being suppressed so the ratio between cost and benefit is mediocre.

You don't end up being suppressed, your hpta is shut down while on it sure, but recovery will 100% be faster than being on testosterone, since your balls have not been shut down.
It might not work long term for everyone, but you wouldn't know how it is for you without trying, since you are interested in making babies, i don't see the harm in giving that a shot, what have you got to lose, you can always hop on trt later on.
After all it's one of the most common fertility treatments used, i probably would not hop on the high end fertility doses used in many studies from the get go if i were you, 500iu eod might be a place to start. Then get some test numbers after a while to see what your balls are pushing out on manual override.
And come on, side effects don't happen to everyone, there is a study linked here that was comparing long term use of HCG+FSH with testosterone only.

 

[Mastodont]

Here is some reading, you can find more, the dosing schedules on hcg vary greatly just like with testosterone, you have to be the judge, but it is well established that testosterone peaks at around 72hrs post injection.

Effect of TRT vs hCG/FSH on upstream hormone pathways.

The role of gonadotropins in testicular and adrenal androgen biosynthesis pathways -insights from males with congenital hypogonadotropic hypogonadism on hCG/rFSH and on testosterone replacement SUMMARY Objective: To delineate the role of gonadotropins in male androgen biosynthesis pathways...

www.excelmale.com

Single and multi‐dose pharmacology of recombinant and urinary hCG in men

1 | INTRODUCTION Gonadotrophin treatment to induce puberty, spermatogenesis, and fertility in men with congenital or acquired gonadotropin deficiency is based on treatment with human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG), aplacental heterodimeric glycoprotein hormone and natural, long‐acting analog of...

www.excelmale.com

Gonadotropin therapy in male infants and adolescents with HH

This video discusses the use of gonadotropin therapy in male infants and adolescents with hypogonadism. Dr. Sasha Howard from Queen Mary University of London explains the evidence and best practices for this treatment. She emphasizes the importance of early diagnosis and treatment to improve...

www.excelmale.com

Management Outcomes in Males With Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism Treated With Gonadotropins

Management Outcomes in Males With Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism Treated With Gonadotropins (2023) Bahaa O. Sahib, Ibrahim H. Hussein, Nassar T. Alibrahim, Abbas A. Mansour Abstract Background Hypogonadotropic hypogonadism is an important cause of male infertility and loss of secondary...

www.excelmale.com

 

[BSS91]

very interresting read.

The more I research and the more I am getting closer to start TRT and the more I realise that tolerating well HCG is going to be the crucial point of treatment.

I find very conflicting info about HCG. Some articles say it is mostly well tolerated by men, some clinics say it is 50/50, some say HCG causes only problems….seems to be a hit or miss. On paper it does amazing things and should be part of every TRT protocol if well tolerated.

I am wondering if there is any way of hacking HCG to increase probability of it being very well tolerated, like increasing injection frequency for example.

 

[Phil Goodman]

very interresting read.

The more I research and the more I am getting closer to start TRT and the more I realise that tolerating well HCG is going to be the crucial point of treatment.

I find very conflicting info about HCG. Some articles say it is mostly well tolerated by men, some clinics say it is 50/50, some say HCG causes only problems….seems to be a hit or miss. On paper it does amazing things and should be part of every TRT protocol if well tolerated.

I am wondering if there is any way of hacking HCG to increase probability of it being very well tolerated, like increasing injection frequency for example.

No “hack”, but you should generally try for the lowest effective dose, same with pretty much everything else. Only HCG protocols I’ve had are 500 ius twice/week, 300 ius three times/week, and 250 ius three times/week. 250 three times/week is the best one I’ve found and I plan to stay there now(and have been for over a year). Another concern with HCG is desensitization by overloading receptors so that it is no longer effective at any dose. That’s a hard phenomenon to study though and reports mostly come from anecdotal stories. But either way it’s still a good idea to go with lowest effective dose, and I think the cookie cutter approach of 500 ius twice/week or nothing is what makes quite a few people think they don’t tolerate it. For some reason people are willing to go all over the place with regard to frequency and dose when it comes to trt, but assume HCG should work at that one recommended protocol or else it won’t work. Imagine if people did that with testosterone. If the only option for testosterone was 200 mg/week a lot of people would say it doesn’t work for them, when in reality they just need a better protocol that is suited for them.


It also depends on if you’re doing HCG mono or using it to supplement trt. I’ve only ever done the latter, and I would think the doses required for monotherapy(or see least the doses I see mentioned for it) would be more likely to lead to issues. But then again some people love it, though I’m not sure I’ve ever seen someone do it longterm without just adding trt to the mix. That kind of seems to indicate it isn’t a longterm solution.