Help determining proper pregnenolone dosage and frequency

[newuser]

Hi all,
I've been experimenting with pregnenolone for over a year now, with varied success. I seem to get benefits at 100mg (such as higher libido, more pronounced nighttime erections and better sleep); however, I don't get these results consistently. If I try to continue 100mg daily, the effects start waning by the second day (my theory for this is possibly progesterone elevating too high). I've also tried lowering the dose to 10mg, 25mg and 50mg; however, oddly enough, I only seem to get the benefits at 100mg. Extended use at the other doses eventually builds up and produces only negative effects. Anyway, I was wondering if anybody could clarify the half-life of pregnenolone, its sulfate derivative, and its conversion to progesterone and could offer any insight on dosing frequency.

By the way, I've experimented with just progesterone, but the benefits are less pronounced, and I become more susceptible to the negative effects.

(sorry for the long-winded ramble)

I think you have such a effect with different doses because of Pregenenolone u-shape action Biphasic, U-shaped actions at the GABAa receptor

 

[Sozzing]

I think you have such a effect with different doses because of Pregenenolone u-shape action Biphasic, U-shaped actions at the GABAa receptor

Thanks for your response, I believe you are correct. Do you happen to have any insight on how I could proceed from here?

 

[newuser]

Thanks for your response, I believe you are correct. Do you happen to have any insight on how I could proceed from here?

You are very welcome! You can try low dose of transdermal pregnenolone appied E3D or E4D. Trandermal application stays up to 5 days inside skin. If suspended in DMSO even longer.

 

[Sozzing]

You are very welcome! You can try low dose of transdermal pregnenolone appied E3D or E4D. Trandermal application stays up to 5 days inside skin. If suspended in DMSO even longer.

Thanks, I'll order some and give it a shot. I will report back with any results.

 

[MIP1950]

My experience with oral pregnenolone has been uneven and sometimes contradictory. When taken at night, it did help me fall asleep. However, the worst for me is that I experience severe GERD if I take it at night. I've read somewhere that it relaxes the esophageal sphincter. Nothing like waking up with a mouthful of acid, coughing your lungs out. Topical always makes me hyper and hot, possibly ramping up my thyroid. I'm considering intranasal; snorting up a small amount in each nostril. I use Health Natura micronized powder. If I were to reconsider oral preg, I'd take it in the morning.

 

[MIP1950]

Hi all,
I've been experimenting with pregnenolone for over a year now, with varied success. I seem to get benefits at 100mg (such as higher libido, more pronounced nighttime erections and better sleep); however, I don't get these results consistently. If I try to continue 100mg daily, the effects start waning by the second day (my theory for this is possibly progesterone elevating too high). I've also tried lowering the dose to 10mg, 25mg and 50mg; however, oddly enough, I only seem to get the benefits at 100mg. Extended use at the other doses eventually builds up and produces only negative effects. Anyway, I was wondering if anybody could clarify the half-life of pregnenolone, its sulfate derivative, and its conversion to progesterone and could offer any insight on dosing frequency.

By the way, I've experimented with just progesterone, but the benefits are less pronounced, and I become more susceptible to the negative effects.

(sorry for the long-winded ramble)

Ray Peat PhD, who spent decades researching and using pregnenolone, has written that when taking 300 mg, once a week, the body will keep recycling it. Given your experience, and everyone is different, a weekly dose, whatever that might be, could be the compromise solution.

 

[Sozzing]

Ray Peat PhD, who spent decades researching and using pregnenolone, has written that when taking 300 mg, once a week, the body will keep recycling it. Given your experience, and everyone is different, a weekly dose, whatever that might be, could be the compromise solution.

Thanks for the response, the cream isn't arriving for another couple of weeks so I'll give this a go in the meantime.

 

[JA Battle]

Ray Peat PhD, who spent decades researching and using pregnenolone, has written that when taking 300 mg, once a week, the body will keep recycling it. Given your experience, and everyone is different, a weekly dose, whatever that might be, could be the compromise solution.

Larger single doses are also preferentially converted into progesterone, it’s metabolite allopregnenolone and pregnenolone’s sulfated form, pregnenolone sulfate.

A human synthesizes between 30-50 mg of pregnenolone daily. So it’s probably the most natural to take 10mg with three meals. Higher test doses probably warrant an increase in pregnenolone. Also if one is on trt with no hcg, it likely reduces how much pregnenolone is converted to progesterone and dhea due to the STAR enzyme that requires LH.

I’d say that conversion will be altered more to pregnenolone sulfate in this scenario but that is just a semi educated guess.

If one is not on hcg I’d say that taking

10mg of oral pregnenolone three times daily, 1mg to 3mg oral progesterone three times daily.

If one is on hcg I’d say just take 5mg pregnenolone 3 times daily with no progesterone at first and then consider .5 to 1.5 mg oral progesterone three times daily.

This is just a conservative low dose. Per individual, increases of one or both could be warranted.

Missing long is the same as missing short. To me, it makes the most sense to miss short and work your way up but these doses I think would benefit many and is a good starting point if one wants to be methodical about upstream hormone replacement.

If serum dheas is not at least half range then I’d say oral .5mg three times daily. We only produce 2-5mg of dhea daily. Slowly dheaS stores will increase. We make 25mg of dheaS daily but I don’t think we get there by blasting ourselves with supraphysiological doses of dhea.

The next thought is to see what the oral bioavailability of dheaS is and learn more about oral metabolism of dhea. It may be wise to supplement dheaS directly which I have done.

 

[JA Battle]

Oral absorption of DHEA-sulphate and administration to hypopituitary girls - Pediatric Research

In 16 subjects (“Addisonian” adults and hypopituitary children before -or without- adrenarche) the plasma levels of DHEA (D) and its sulphate (DS) were measured after administration of DS per os, in a single dose of 30 mg/m2 body surface. DS levels rose from a mean of 0.09 μg/ml at time 0, to a...

www.nature.com

Here is an example of oral dheas

Now we can figure out a good starting point to consume dheas orally.

Also whatever we determine for a dheas dose we would take a % of that amount worth of dhea with it. In physiological dose and ratio.

 

[MIP1950]

Oral absorption of DHEA-sulphate and administration to hypopituitary girls - Pediatric Research

In 16 subjects (“Addisonian” adults and hypopituitary children before -or without- adrenarche) the plasma levels of DHEA (D) and its sulphate (DS) were measured after administration of DS per os, in a single dose of 30 mg/m2 body surface. DS levels rose from a mean of 0.09 μg/ml at time 0, to a...

www.nature.com

Here is an example of oral dheas

Now we can figure out a good starting point to consume dheas orally.

Also whatever we determine for a dheas dose we would take a % of that amount worth of dhea with it. In physiological dose and ratio.

Regarding DHEA, Dr. Etienne-Emile Beaulieu, French biochemist and endocrinologist, one of the world's experts on DHEA, still working at 94, recommended, in a lecture that's on YouTube, that most people could benefit from 25 mg, daily. On the other side is Dr. Henry Lindner, interventional endocrinologist in PA, who recommends 75 mg, sublingual, daily, for men. And, too, it can argued that perhaps less is more, so 10 mg, daily. With both pregnenolone and DHEA, it is a matter of self-experimentation unless one is being treated by a doctor who has a good understanding of how to use them.

 

[JA Battle]

Regarding DHEA, Dr. Etienne-Emile Beaulieu, French biochemist and endocrinologist, one of the world's experts on DHEA, still working at 94, recommended, in a lecture that's on YouTube, that most people could benefit from 25 mg, daily. On the other side is Dr. Henry Lindner, interventional endocrinologist in PA, who recommends 75 mg, sublingual, daily, for men. And, too, it can argued that perhaps less is more, so 10 mg, daily. With both pregnenolone and DHEA, it is a matter of self-experimentation unless one is being treated by a doctor who has a good understanding of how to use them.

Their recommendations are interesting that’s for sure. To me, the recommendations make little to no sense based on other published information making reference to the adult adrenal cortex having around 4mg of dhea and 25mg of dheas produced daily. Whether we care is another matter.

I’d say 5mg of injectable dheas morning and night or at least one injection of 10mg (24 hour half life) is ideal and the body will free what dhea it needs from the sulfated stores. This is what makes the most sense. However I am not a chemist and have not found a way to get dheas into solution for injection after 2 failed attempts. So I’m relegated to continuing to use dheas in 99.9% dmso.

 

[MIP1950]

Their recommendations are interesting that’s for sure. To me, the recommendations make little to no sense based on other published information making reference to the adult adrenal cortex having around 4mg of dhea and 25mg of dheas produced daily. Whether we care is another matter.

I’d say 5mg of injectable dheas morning and night or at least one injection of 10mg (24 hour half life) is ideal and the body will free what dhea it needs from the sulfated stores. This is what makes the most sense. However I am not a chemist and have not found a way to get dheas into solution for injection after 2 failed attempts. So I’m relegated to continuing to use dheas in 99.9% dmso.

Years ago, maybe on All Things Male, there was a thread about injectable DHEA. With an rx, it can be compounded. I've read sites where guys make their own IM test and other steroids. I'd be concerned about keeping it sterile.

Just looked at Empower and they don't offer injectable DHEA but someone else might make it. I'll just swallow a capsule or get pharma grade powder like you're using. Just found a veterinary site that sells it, injectable. Cool.

 

[JA Battle]

Years ago, maybe on All Things Male, there was a thread about injectable DHEA. With an rx, it can be compounded. I've read sites where guys make their own IM test and other steroids. I'd be concerned about keeping it sterile.

Just looked at Empower and they don't offer injectable DHEA but someone else might make it. I'll just swallow a capsule or get pharma grade powder like you're using. Just found a veterinary site that sells it, injectable. Cool.

I must specify that I’m referring to two different things. There is dhea and then there is dheas (dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate)

 

[MIP1950]

I must specify that I’m referring to two different things. There is dhea and then there is dheas (dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate)

Not familiar with DHEA-S as a supplement or injectable. I understand that DHEA is converted to the sulfated form in the liver. Always something new to learn.

 

[JA Battle]

Not familiar with DHEA-S as a supplement or injectable. I understand that DHEA is converted to the sulfated form in the liver. Always something new to learn.

It is not readily available for most. The body is not used to converting large amounts of dhea into dheas and certainly not by hepatic processes. It happens that the body converts dheas into dhea on an as needed basis.

 

[MIP1950]

It is not readily available for most. The body is not used to converting large amounts of dhea into dheas and certainly not by hepatic processes. It happens that the body converts dheas into dhea on an as needed basis.

The sulfated form is the storage form. ZRT Labs has an informative page about both forms, as well as why topical is as important as oral or sublingual.

 

[RodgerDodger]

I am up to 100 mg twice per day. Two things I have noticed: deeper sleep and more fluidity in my speech. Watching closely to rule out the "placebo effect" that usually happens when we all start something new.

My pregnenolone on 100mg per day increased from almost undetectable to 95 ng/dL using a sensitive assay. I am hoping 200 mg may double that.

The "normal" range of pregnenolone in men is 10-200 ng/dL.

Are you still taking 100mg twice per day?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Are you still taking 100mg twice per day?

No, I lowered the dose to 50mg before bedtime because the 200 mg per day dose made me tired.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

No, I lowered the dose to 50mg before bedtime because the 200 mg per day dose made me tired.

Nelson, could pregnenolone & DHEA be used in lieu of testosterone?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Nelson, could pregnenolone & DHEA be used in lieu of testosterone?

No.

Even though when you see this diagram it only makes sense to infer that supplementing pregnenolone and DHEA may increase testosterone, the fact is that, for that to happen, the enzymes responsible for synthesis of downstream hormones may be affected by several factors.

Sex Hormone Cascade from Pregnenolone to Testosterone​

The synthesis of sex hormones, including testosterone, follows a complex cascade starting from cholesterol. Here is a detailed overview of the pathway from pregnenolone to testosterone:

1. Conversion of Cholesterol to Pregnenolone​

The process begins in the mitochondria, where cholesterol is converted into pregnenolone by the enzyme cholesterol side-chain cleavage enzyme (CYP11A1). This step is crucial as pregnenolone serves as the precursor for all steroid hormones.

2. Conversion of Pregnenolone to 17α-Hydroxypregnenolone​

Pregnenolone is then converted into 17α-hydroxypregnenolone by the enzyme 17α-hydroxylase (CYP17A1). This enzyme is found in the adrenal glands and gonads.

3. Conversion to Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA)​

The same enzyme, CYP17A1, also possesses 17,20-lyase activity, which converts 17α-hydroxypregnenolone into dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA).

4. Conversion of DHEA to Androstenedione​

DHEA is then converted into androstenedione by the enzyme 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (HSD3B2). This conversion is a critical step as androstenedione is a direct precursor to testosterone.

5. Conversion of Androstenedione to Testosterone​

Finally, androstenedione is converted into testosterone by the enzyme 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 3 (HSD17B3). This enzyme facilitates the reduction of androstenedione to testosterone, completing the cascade.

Enzymatic Pathway Summary​

Step	Substrate	Enzyme	Product
1	Cholesterol	CYP11A1	Pregnenolone
2	Pregnenolone	CYP17A1	17α-Hydroxypregnenolone
3	17α-Hydroxypregnenolone	CYP17A1 (17,20-lyase)	DHEA
4	DHEA	HSD3B2	Androstenedione
5	Androstenedione	HSD17B3	Testosterone

Physiological Significance​

This cascade is essential for the production of testosterone, a critical androgen responsible for male sexual development, reproductive function, and various other physiological processes. Disruptions in any step of this pathway can lead to hormonal imbalances and associated health issues.Understanding this pathway is crucial for medical research and treatment strategies involving hormone replacement therapy, fertility treatments, and managing conditions related to hormonal imbalances.

Factors that Affect Downstream Conversion

Several factors can affect the activity of enzymes that convert sex hormones into downstream ones. These factors include:

1. Hormonal Regulation​

• Feedback Mechanisms: Hormones can regulate enzyme activity through feedback loops. For example, high levels of end products like testosterone can inhibit upstream enzymes to maintain balance.
• Other Hormones: Hormones like follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH) can activate or inhibit enzymes like aromatase, which converts androgens to estrogens.

2. Genetic Factors​

• Gene Expression: Variations in the genes encoding steroidogenic enzymes can affect their expression levels and activity. Polymorphisms in the CYP17A1 gene, for example, can change how much 17α-hydroxylase is made, which in turn changes pregnenolone into other hormones.
• Mutations: Mutations in genes like HSD17B3 can lead to deficiencies in enzymes responsible for converting androstenedione to testosterone, resulting in hormonal imbalances.

3. Local Tissue Factors​

• Tissue-Specific Expression: The expression of enzymes like aromatase can vary between tissues, affecting local hormone levels. For example, aromatase is highly expressed in adipose tissue, influencing local estrogen production.
• Cellular Environment: The redox state, pH, and availability of cofactors (e.g., NADPH) in the cellular environment can influence enzyme activity. For example, oxidative stress can inhibit steroidogenic enzymes by altering the redox balance.

4. Age and Developmental Stage​

• Aging: The efficiency of steroidogenic enzymes can decline with age, affecting hormone production. For instance, aging can reduce the activity of enzymes in Leydig cells, leading to lower testosterone levels.
• Developmental Changes: Hormone production and enzyme activity can vary during different life stages, such as puberty, pregnancy, and menopause.

5. Environmental Factors​

• Endocrine Disruptors: Exposure to environmental chemicals like bisphenol A (BPA) and phthalates can disrupt the activity of steroidogenic enzymes, leading to altered hormone levels.
• Diet and Lifestyle: Nutritional status and lifestyle factors such as stress and physical activity can influence hormone production and enzyme activity.

6. Disease States​

• Cancer: Enzymes like 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenases (HSD17B1 and HSD17B2) can change how they are expressed and work in diseases like breast cancer. This can affect hormone levels in the area and the progression of the disease.
• Metabolic Disorders: Conditions such as obesity and diabetes can affect the activity of steroidogenic enzymes, leading to imbalances in hormone levels.

Understanding these factors is crucial for developing targeted therapies and managing conditions related to hormonal imbalances.