Hair loss

[wondering]

It isn't called like that anymore since years, because serum androgens has been proven to be unrelated to baldness.
The very founder of the term died knowing his claims were false.
The name used these days is male pattern baldness.
If what you are saying was true, that would have meant that bald people have higher levels of serum androgens and that have been actually the opposite in the vast majority of cases.
Actually young men with all their hairs have the highest levels of testosterone and DHT.

The range of DHT I'm talking about is in pg/mL and it is 112-955 pg/mL.

You can't just look at DHT and assume its effect on hair is the same throughout ones lifetime. There are many things that change their effect on the human body as we age. I don't think anyone is saying DHT is the ONLY cause of hair loss, but it can be a contributing factor among many - genetic predisposition, of course being the largest.

 

[Appassionato]

You can't just look at DHT and assume its effect on hair is the same throughout ones lifetime. There are many things that change their effect on the human body as we age. I don't think anyone is saying DHT is the ONLY cause of hair loss, but it can be a contributing factor among many - genetic predisposition, of course being the largest.

You mean 90% of the dermatologist throughout the world and hairloss Internet articles are not saying DHT is the main cause of male pattern baldness?
Isn't this myth allowing a shady pharmaceutical company as Merck to nuke men DHT and castrate them, while doing big profits in the meanwhile?

There is surely a genetic predisposition in it, but I believe epigenetic factors play a bigger factor here.
Also, what I've been trying to convey in all my messages is that hormones imbalances lead to hair loss for the vast majority of the cases, and in that sense people inheriting a predisposition to an unbalanced endocrine system have a higher chances to inherit MPB.
All of it can be reversed trying to find hormonal homeostasis, which I think is the reason why we are all on this forum.

Keep saying to people that DHT, E2 or whatever is the boogyman just helps spreading misleading info.

Healing your body and stay in good shape for life, requires long term lifestyle changes, not just swallowing a pill, especially if they are synthetic drugs.

 

[Cataceous]

To add fuel on this discussion, I hope this will help people reconsidering the connection between androgens, DHT and hair loss:

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Quote from this study:
No significant correlations were found between terminal hair development and absolute androgen levels; however, some significant values were observed in the case of the metabolic rate of dihydrotestosterone/testosterone and the proportion of free to total testosterone. The disposition to balding also correlates positively with the latter ratio. Yet the absolute serum androgen concentrations in men with a disposition to balding is lower than in men with no reduction of scalp hair. The widespread assumption that androgen levels are in general elevated in bald‐trait men must therefore be rejected.
...

This seems to disregard the fact that free testosterone, not total, is what drives DHT production. Guys with low SHBG will have lower total androgen levels on average yet somewhat higher free T. The free T is what fuels DHT production in the scalp; systemic levels of DHT are less important, though can still be a factor when high enough in those predisposed to such hair loss.

DHT is absolutely a necessary condition for pattern hair loss.

 

[Appassionato]

The free T is what fuels DHT production in the scalp.

Where did you get this info from?

If you do a quick search on the hair loss talk forum looking for high estradiol, there are people blood tests showing a free T level as low as 9 and a good amount of hair shedding, both resistant to finasteride and minoxidil.
So I have hard time believing that.

Also the article mentioned that what they found affecting hair loss positively was the ratio between T/DHT, not specifying in which way though.
Once again this lead to the hormonal imbalance theory.

 

[Cataceous]

...The free T is what fuels DHT production in the scalp; ...

Where did you get this info from?
...

This is testosterone 101. For the most part testosterone must be free to do useful things, and this includes interacting with 5-alpha reductase to form DHT. Per this paper, total testosterone correlates pretty well with SHBG, but SHBG does not correlate with free T.

Regardless of any hormonal imbalance hypothesis, DHT causes pattern hair loss. This isn't denying the possibility that DHT is later in the causal chain.

 

[Appassionato]

This is testosterone 101. For the most part testosterone must be free to do useful things, and this includes interacting with 5-alpha reductase to form DHT. Per this paper, total testosterone correlates pretty well with SHBG, but SHBG does not correlate with free T.

Regardless of any hormonal imbalance hypothesis, DHT causes pattern hair loss. This isn't denying the possibility that DHT is later in the causal chain.

I know that and it's obvious to everyone here in this forum.
My question was different. How do you know that a higher free T means a higher DHT in the scalp?
This would be the normal logical thinking, but, as we know, the actual concentration of androgens in tissues is sometimes unrelated to the serum levels.
Young men with higher DHT levels were paradoxically the ones with a higher capital hairs density according to a study. While we know that balding scalps have higher DHT levels, disregarding the serum levels.
As you see, these studies are actually disproving the connection between the two.

Some say it's due to the genetic predisposition of DHT follicles sensibility, disregarding what the serum levels are, and some (like Rob) says it's due to the inflammation that the DHT reaches higher concentration in the scalp.
I don't know the answer to that, I wish I did, but both theories are basically saying that the serum DHT levels are marginal for their contribution.

 

[wondering]

You mean 90% of the dermatologist throughout the world and hairloss Internet articles are not saying DHT is the main cause of male pattern baldness?
Isn't this myth allowing a shady pharmaceutical company as Merck to nuke men DHT and castrate them, while doing big profits in the meanwhile?

There is surely a genetic predisposition in it, but I believe epigenetic factors play a bigger factor here.
Also, what I've been trying to convey in all my messages is that hormones imbalances lead to hair loss for the vast majority of the cases, and in that sense people inheriting a predisposition to an unbalanced endocrine system have a higher chances to inherit MPB.
All of it can be reversed trying to find hormonal homeostasis, which I think is the reason why we are all on this forum.

Keep saying to people that DHT, E2 or whatever is the boogyman just helps spreading misleading info.

Healing your body and stay in good shape for life, requires long term lifestyle changes, not just swallowing a pill, especially if they are synthetic drugs.

90% ??

 

[Cataceous]

...My question was different. How do you know that a higher free T means a higher DHT in the scalp?
...

I wasn't making this claim. I was questioning the inherent assumption in the cited passage that higher total testosterone necessarily means higher free testosterone. In men with functional HPTAs, testosterone regulation is largely based on the free hormones, with the implication that higher SHBG means higher total testosterone, not higher free T.

 

[Appassionato]

I wasn't making this claim. I was questioning the inherent assumption in the cited passage that higher total testosterone necessarily means higher free testosterone. In men with functional HPTAs, testosterone regulation is largely based on the free hormones, with the implication that higher SHBG means higher total testosterone, not higher free T.

Ah ok, sorry. I didn't get what you meant.

The paradox is still there though. Some studies have shown regrowth of capital hairs with topical applications of testosterone, like the ones I've posted above.
Sam thing on a study dated back 1988 (which I saw in the past) done on older men with advanced MPB.

The whole thing is quite complicated and still makes me angry seeing doctor prescribing finasteride to guys in their 20s.

 

[Cataceous]

...
The whole thing is quite complicated and still makes me angry seeing doctor prescribing finasteride to guys in their 20s.

The stuff is effective, but some of these guys will pay a pretty steep price for it. I certainly regret having used it.

 

[Robotics]

Depends on your shbg level, If you have low SHBG you will have more free floating DHT = more hairloss. Mine was out of range and I was only at a total T of about 600. It will most certainly increase the rate of hairloss, but with low shbg it will increase it a lot faster

 

[Appassionato]

Depends on your shbg level, If you have low SHBG you will have more free floating DHT = more hairloss. Mine was out of range and I was only at a total T of about 600. It will most certainly increase the rate of hairloss, but with low shbg it will increase it a lot faster

What's your hairloss status at the moment?
Do you shed? What's your age?

 

[fifty]

I don’t know dude. Find an even moderately effective solution and you’ll be a billionaire.

 

[Robotics]

What's your hairloss status at the moment?
Do you shed? What's your age?

30. my hair has thinned considerable in the 1 year of trt. I was taken off TRT temporarily because of my PSA rising out of range. So i am running post cycle therapy right now. I didn't really shed, hair just miniaturized and thinned over the year.

 

[Appassionato]

I don’t know dude. Find an even moderately effective solution and you’ll be a billionaire.

Unfortunately there's no one solution. Hair loss is a multi-factorial issue.
Take a guy with hypothyroidism for example. If he doesn't address his thyroid, his hair loss will progress till the end of his life.
But what dermatologists usually do is putting you on 1mg finasteride without even checking your hormones first.
And we all know how different people react to the same drug dose.
But you will see guys on hair loss forum in 2020 still saying you have to be on 1mg of finasteride every day or you will lose all your hairs. Makes me really angry.

30. my hair has thinned considerable in the 1 year of trt. I was taken off TRT temporarily because of my PSA rising out of range. So i am running post cycle therapy right now. I didn't really shed, hair just miniaturized and thinned over the year.

Prostate health and hairloss are tightly connected. If you find the reason why your PSA skyrocketed, you will find the answer for your hairloss.
Diffuse thinning is usually a clear signal that there's something going wrong in your body.
A classic MPB develop according to the Norwood-Hamilton scale.