First post. Can’t get E2 under control, starting to worry

[Pnw0031]

U really think the sleep issue can’t be overcome with the prop? I’ve been on empowers prop before, and slept fine. But then again I’ve never had sleep issues while on any form of test, or any AAS.

Have u tried using red light blocking glasses 2-4 hours prior to going to sleep?

Not eating 3-4 hours before sleep?

Taking a quality magnesium supplement?

Getting sunlight in ur eyes as soon as u wake up for at least 5 minutes?

I try to do all those things the best that I can, and I never have any sleep issues. Maybe give them a shot if u haven’t. They make a difference

And I understand that u don’t have sleep issues off of the prop, so clearly the prop is having a negative effect on ur sleep, but u’d be surprised how things can affect u differently, depending on the state that ur body is is. I would say give a few things a shot before giving up on prop just yet. Sounds like u felt great on it otherwise

My next appointment is in July and I’ll bring up prop. I do all of those and have persistent sleep issues. I’m currently reading an article on how benzyl alcohol decreases acetylcholinesterase in rat models, I’ve noticed that injectable test of either cyp or prop makes me far more sensitive to anything that raises acetylcholine. High acetylcholine symptoms include what funk and I are complaining of: anxiety, insomnia, depression, over stimulation etc. Often times, Benadryl (an acetylcholine blocker) is the only thing that helps me sleep.

If I can find something that increases acetylcholinerase I could do well with prop then

 

[Pnw0031]

Effect of benzyl alcohol on adenosine triphosphatase, p-nitrophenylphosphatase and acetylcholinesterase in rat erythrocyte membrane - PubMed

The irreversible effect of benzyl alcohol on ATPase, p-nitrophenylphosphatase and acetylcholinesterase in the erythrocyte membrane of rats was demonstrated. The ATPase activity in the membranes was stimulated with 10 -70 mM benzyl alcohol and inhibited by concentrations greater than 80 mM...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[FunkOdyssey]

My next appointment is in July and I’ll bring up prop. I do all of those and have persistent sleep issues. I’m currently reading an article on how benzyl alcohol decreases acetylcholinesterase in rat models, I’ve noticed that injectable test of either cyp or prop makes me far more sensitive to anything that raises acetylcholine. High acetylcholine symptoms include what funk and I are complaining of: anxiety, insomnia, depression, over stimulation etc. Often times, Benadryl (an acetylcholine blocker) is the only thing that helps me sleep.

If I can find something that increases acetylcholinerase I could do well with prop then

Have you tried enanthate yet?

 

[Pnw0031]

Have you tried enanthate yet?

I have not, haven’t had the chance until recently

 

[Gman86]

My next appointment is in July and I’ll bring up prop. I do all of those and have persistent sleep issues. I’m currently reading an article on how benzyl alcohol decreases acetylcholinesterase in rat models, I’ve noticed that injectable test of either cyp or prop makes me far more sensitive to anything that raises acetylcholine. High acetylcholine symptoms include what funk and I are complaining of: anxiety, insomnia, depression, over stimulation etc. Often times, Benadryl (an acetylcholine blocker) is the only thing that helps me sleep.

If I can find something that increases acetylcholinerase I could do well with prop then

Interesting stuff. There’s got to be a reason why I never have sleep issues, on any protocol. And I’ve tried literally everything. I feel like it has to do with me eating so clean. Have u tried eating as clean as u can? I can’t even tell u how many people I’ve seen say that they sleep like babies once they went carnivore, or did a carnivore base. I know I’m always preaching diet stuff, but it’s just cuz diet matters more than people realize. But funk eats super healthy, or what I would consider super healthy, and if he has the same issue, maybe cleaning up ur diet might not have as much of a positive effect as I’m thinking

So with what u and funk have, do u guys have to avoid foods that contain a lot of choline? Or does acetylcholine have nothing to do with choline? I assume they are connected, but just want to clarify

 

[Pnw0031]

Interesting stuff. There’s got to be a reason why I never have sleep issues, on any protocol. And I’ve tried literally everything. Have u tried eating as clean as u can? I can’t even tell u how many people I’ve seen say that they sleep like babies once they went carnivore, or did a carnivore base. I know I’m always preaching diet stuff, but it’s just cuz diet matters more than people realize.

So with what u and funk have, do u guys have to avoid foods that contain a lot of choline? Or does acetylcholine have nothing to do with choline? I assume they are connected, but just want to clarify

I have noticed certain high choline foods give me bouts of restlessness, I eat very clean personally. I’ve tried carnivore, keto, Mediterranean etc. the thing is healthy foods are packed with choline so it’s not wise to avoid them. Instead it’s ideal to find ways to digest choline better. Looks like increasing T3 via supplements like Forskolin could

Funk out of curiosity have you measured your thyroid at all? T3 upregulates acetylcholinesterase. My tsh was 3.88 at my initial appointment with Defy, we’re running a t3 panel at my next appointment.

 

[Pnw0031]

Involvement of L-triiodothyronine in acetylcholine metabolism in adult rat cerebrocortical synaptosomes - PubMed

Despite the recently emerging notion of thyroid-hormone involvement in neurotransmission in the adult mammalian brain, adequate evidence for a cellular basis of the process is still lacking. The present study indicates the involvement of thyroid hormones in cholinergic system of the adult rat...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It could be implied an issue with injectables comes from a thyroid issue

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Interesting stuff. There’s got to be a reason why I never have sleep issues, on any protocol. And I’ve tried literally everything. I feel like it has to do with me eating so clean. Have u tried eating as clean as u can? I can’t even tell u how many people I’ve seen say that they sleep like babies once they went carnivore, or did a carnivore base. I know I’m always preaching diet stuff, but it’s just cuz diet matters more than people realize. But funk eats super healthy, or what I would consider super healthy, and if he has the same issue, maybe cleaning up ur diet might not have as much of a positive effect as I’m thinking

So with what u and funk have, do u guys have to avoid foods that contain a lot of choline? Or does acetylcholine have nothing to do with choline? I assume they are connected, but just want to clarify

I do get a depressed mood if I eat too many eggs too consistently. For example, if I do something like 3 eggs a day for a week or more. It doesn't cause the extreme overstimulation, anxiety and insomnia that I experienced on the BB/BA containing formulas though.

 

[Pnw0031]

I do get a depressed mood if I eat too many eggs too consistently. For example, if I do something like 3 eggs a day for a week or more. It doesn't cause the extreme overstimulation, anxiety and insomnia that I experienced on the BB/BA containing formulas though.

That sounds like the quintessential high acetylcholine symptom, I get the exact same feeling on eggs if eaten too often. I think we’ve found an explanation as to why some can’t handle BB/BA.

Now, it’s clear that E works well for you, I might try it. I am only 3 weeks into cream though so I’m still in the tinkering phase.

 

[Pnw0031]

Cholinergic Toxicity - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

This doesn’t mention depression but many other articles do

 

[Gman86]

I have noticed certain high choline foods give me bouts of restlessness, I eat very clean personally. I’ve tried carnivore, keto, Mediterranean etc. the thing is healthy foods are packed with choline so it’s not wise to avoid them. Instead it’s ideal to find ways to digest choline better. Looks like increasing T3 via supplements like Forskolin could

Funk out of curiosity have you measured your thyroid at all? T3 upregulates acetylcholinesterase. My tsh was 3.88 at my initial appointment with Defy, we’re running a t3 panel at my next appointment.

Maybe run a little lugols iodine. Even 1 drop of the 2% per day boosts my free T3 into the high 4’s/ low 5’s

 

[Gman86]

I do get a depressed mood if I eat too many eggs too consistently. For example, if I do something like 3 eggs a day for a week or more. It doesn't cause the extreme overstimulation, anxiety and insomnia that I experienced on the BB/BA containing formulas though.

Interesting. I actually recently cut out eggs to see if I feel better off of them. Like less brain fog mostly.

Do u currently eat eggs? And if so, like
How many and how often, roughly?

 

[Pnw0031]

Maybe run a little lugols iodine. Even 1 drop of the 2% per day boosts my free T3 into the high 4’s/ low 5’s

Any brand you prefer?

 

[Gman86]

Any brand you prefer?

I always order this one. Just make sure ur getting a good amount of selenium in ur diet while taking it. If u need a little selenium boost I’ll link the organic sprouted Brazil nuts I get. I usually eat one or two per day as an extra insurance policy, selenium wise

J.CROW'S® Lugol's Solution of Iodine 2% 2 oz Bottle

Equivalent to USP or Higher2 oz Dropper Bottle FREE DOMESTIC SHIPPING! Calculating Number of MG's of Iodine and Iodide per Drop of LUGOL'S 2%: Each VERTICAL "metric" drop (= 1/20 ml) is approximately 1.0 mg of iodine and 2.0 mg of potassium iodide. The Iodide portion of Potassium Iodide is...

www.jcrowsllc.com

Brazil Nuts, Sprouted, Organic

Our sprouted Brazil nuts have been soaked and dehydrated to improve digestibility and to make the Brazil nuts sweet and crunchy! Stock up on Brazil nuts for a great way to add selenium, magnesium, and thiamine to your diet!

www.bluemountainorganics.com

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Interesting. I actually recently cut out eggs to see if I feel better off of them. Like less brain fog mostly.

Do u currently eat eggs? And if so, like
How many and how often, roughly?

On most Saturday mornings I bring my family to a local breakfast place where I will eat a meat lover's omelet with three eggs. Occasional consumption like that seems fine. It's when I try to make eggs a daily staple that I get in trouble.

 

[Cataceous]

... I think we’ve found an explanation as to why some can’t handle BB/BA.
...

Methinks you need to run a sanity check on the numbers. The rat study is talking about millimolar concentrations (>100 mM/L). In contrast, serum testosterone is measured in nanomolar units. Isn't that on the order of a million times different?

 

[Pnw0031]

Methinks you need to run a sanity check on the numbers. The rat study is talking about millimolar concentrations (>100 mM/L). In contrast, serum testosterone is measured in nanomolar units. Isn't that on the order of a million times different?

I see, you are right. And here I thought I had a fix to BA/BB causing issues in some. Do you have any thoughts?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I see, you are right. And here I thought I had a fix to BA/BB causing issues in some. Do you have any thoughts?

I suspect negative effects may be due to the way BB affects the release of testosterone from the oil depot. It causes a big spike of release in the beginning that you don't have otherwise. There's a paper called "New Insights In Drug Absorption From Oil Depots" that has great info on that if you're interested. I think we've posted it on the forum before.

 

[Mastodont]

I suspect negative effects may be due to the way BB affects the release of testosterone from the oil depot. It causes a big spike of release in the beginning that you don't have otherwise. There's a paper called "New Insights In Drug Absorption From Oil Depots" that has great info on that if you're interested. I think we've posted it on the forum before.

Makes me wonder if all the data on half life is based on injectables containing BB/BA?
Funny you guys are talking about eggs, they've been on my suspect list and already had one trial of cutting them out of the morning routine, i may have had some more energy in the morning, feels like after the usual 3-4 eggs even with caffeine i get into a sluggish non-motivated state.

 

[Gman86]

Makes me wonder if all the data on half life is based on injectables containing BB/BA?
Funny you guys are talking about eggs, they've been on my suspect list and already had one trial of cutting them out of the morning routine, i may have had some more energy in the morning, feels like after the usual 3-4 eggs even with caffeine i get into a sluggish non-motivated state.

That’s about how many raw egg yolks I would do every morning. For years, up until like a week ago, I would swallow 4 raw pastured egg yolks in the morning, basically as like little multivitamins. Never thought that there could be any downsides to it. And then I would do another 2 raw pastured egg yolks in my protein shakes post workout 3x/ week. So 3x/ week I’d be ingesting 6 raw pastured egg yolks. Not saying they 100% cause me issues, just reporting how man I was ingesting, and for how long. Idk if I’ve noticed any difference yet. I messed up anyways, and ate horrible this past weekend. So I basically have to start over with the experiment. Eating crappy always makes me a bit more foggy and have less energy, so there’s no way to know if I’m not feeling much better because the eggs weren’t causing me any issues in the first place, or if the crappy food is preventing me from feeling any benefits from cutting the eggs out. So just have to stick to my regular diet, the best that I can, over the next 2-3 weeks, and continue to not ingest any eggs, and see if I feel any better, compared to when I was ingesting the raw pastured egg yolks every morning. I’ve read quite a few anecdotes of eggs making people feel worse, but here’s one Reddit thread that I saved recently, on the subject

https://www.reddit.com/r/BrainFog/comments/18xtg0l