First post, bloodwork, first protocol, opinions welcome..

[trt reznor]

Why would your Doc suggest cortisol manager supps (your words) if you didn't need help? You didn't supply the range for your cortisol but usually serum cortisol is taken in the morning and it's supposed to be the highest of the day. Hormone experts like Defy know that you cannot determine the condition of your adrenals unless you take the 4 x saliva labs. Regular mainstream medicine MD's don't know this. They only use serum levels (blood) I too have adrenal problems and I was put on cortisol and I'm still on it 30mg daily (15+10+5) and I can tell you it changed my life. I couldn't handle any hormones until they got my cortisol sorted out. The biggest failing was going to my regular PCP endocrinologist. He woulds always say I'm normal and yet I was suffering badly. I learned the hard way that hormone experts are not your regular MD's. The proof is in how I feel. It's really that simple

Just to be clear, this is an age management center, not a GP. I would guess he's basing his recommendation on the general symptoms I've told him. General fatigue starting early, restlessness late at night. Hard to lose belly fat. The blood test was done in the am, the results had no reference ranges. I will contact them about getting a proper cortisol test. What were your symtoms if low cortisol like? Just from some basic research it would seem mine is on the higher end? Thanks

 

[ratbag]

Read this to bring yourself up to speed on cortisol

http://www.hormonerestoration.com/Cortisol.html

 

[CoastWatcher]

CoastWatcher: I will contact them tomorrow about a Saliva test. In the meantime, I'll start taking the supplement he recommended. Also, thanks for chipping in. I followed your daily protocol details with interest before my first TRT appointment, and actually brought it up to him.

But, if my cortisol levels do come in deficient, what measures would they take for that?

Hydrocortisone. When used in an appropriate fashion is a game-changer.

 

[ratbag]

you guys must be injecting moonshine instead of T...

 

[trt reznor]

So this is my second week on HRT. So far, the first week they gave me my whole protocol on the same day. The first couple days I felt a little off, then felt normal. On my second 375iu shot on Thur I felt a big difference. On sat I started daily small doses of HCG trying the Crisler method, just because my E2 is already on the slightly high side of normal, and I'd like to stay ahead of it. As the days went on I went from feeling good to great. Esp on the 7th day after my first 140mg test cyp injection. My supplies still hadn't come in the mail, so I had to go back yesterday and get another test injection (70mg this time, my scheduled dose), and I must say I'm feeling off today as opposed to the previous five or so days.

Mood is back to a little above baseline, and felt zero libido when I woke up. Took another small HCG injection this am and I'm feeling somewhat better now, a few hours later. I'm wondering if this is a normal part of starting TRT, feeling a bit off at the beginning. I would've assumed the test shots would feel better at the beginning. I have a feeling everyone will tell me to wait it out awhile before I try anything, I'd just like to hear others' experience when first starting.

 

[CoastWatcher]

So this is my second week on HRT. So far, the first week they gave me my whole protocol on the same day. The first couple days I felt a little off, then felt normal. On my second 375iu shot on Thur I felt a big difference. On sat I started daily small doses of HCG trying the Crisler method, just because my E2 is already on the slightly high side of normal, and I'd like to stay ahead of it. As the days went on I went from feeling good to great. Esp on the 7th day after my first 140mg test cyp injection. My supplies still hadn't come in the mail, so I had to go back yesterday and get another test injection (70mg this time, my scheduled dose), and I must say I'm feeling off today as opposed to the previous five or so days.

Mood is back to a little above baseline, and felt zero libido when I woke up. Took another small HCG injection this am and I'm feeling somewhat better now, a few hours later. I'm wondering if this is a normal part of starting TRT, feeling a bit off at the beginning. I would've assumed the test shots would feel better at the beginning. I have a feeling everyone will tell me to wait it out awhile before I try anything, I'd just like to hear others' experience when first starting.

This is a marathon. It takes six weeks for serum levels to balance and reach a steady-state. Six weeks of a stable protocol. There will be ups and downs, days when you wonder why you bothered and days you feel like Superman.

 

[trt reznor]

Took my final shot for the second week and experienced the same feeling. Like it turns off the switch to my ****, sorry that’s the best way I can put it. Mood goes low as well. The first week I was on hCG everyday, and felt better and better every day I got farther from my original injection day. As if everything got better as the test wore off. I could be wrong. But on the day before my next shot, I almost felt high I was feeling so good. A couple hours after the test shot I lost that feeling. Just wondering if I may be one of those guys that respond well to hcg mono, and if I should give this protocol a little longer or hold off on the T for awhile.

 

[trt reznor]

Today is Sunday, my last shot was Friday and I’m finally starting to feel somewhat normal again in terms of mood and libido. Thur after the shot was the worst (60mg test cyp IM, btw), had a headache, flushed face, pressure behind the eyes, and everything downstairs stopped working like a switch had simply been flicked, but now I’m feeling better. If it’s anything like last week, tomorrow will be the best day after the hCG injection and before the test on Tuesday.

So what I’m gonna do is call my Dr and let him know what’s going on. I’m thinking since my overall TT was already at 500, plus my hCG boosting my test, and then adding these shots on top of it I’m probably flooding my system with test and it’s not liking it.

Hopefully he can put me on more frequent injections of an overall lower amount. I’ve always been a high responder to meds for whatever reason. I wondering if I wouldn’t do better at 120mg, 100mg, or even as low as 80mg a week. The good thing is that my Doc has been on TRT for 20+ years, is 70 years old and looks incredible for his age. So that at least gives me hope.

I’m going to keep posting in this thread whether people respond or not. In doing my research before TRT I would find SO MANY threads with no ending or no posted solution, so I’m determined to see this one through.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Can you please post a synopsis of your protocol? Include dosage and frequency of everything you are taking.

It seems you have made changes and I can't quite tell what your ongoing dosages are now.

 

[trt reznor]

Sure!

140mg test cyp IM (80mg Tue, 60mg Fri)
125iu hCG daily subQ

Daily-
Fish Oil 2 Caps
B12 1,000mcg
DIM 250mg (recently stopped taking)
D3 20,000iu (night)
L-Arginine (night)
Cortisol Manager 1 cap (night)

I usually take a calcium supplement but I need to reorder.

*Also, the only thing I’ve changes is taking the hCG daily instead of 375iu on mon and thu.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Thanks. I'd just reiterate with SHBG at 28 you may benefit from more frequent injections. also, the 60-80 split is a bit odd and may keep your body guessing all the time.

And this is biased, based on my own experience and my SHBG is much higher, but I wish I had been started at 100mg/week. Thing is with lower SHBG, many guys do better with more frequent doses at even lower amounts.

Anyway, I hope you are lucky, but it looks like it will take time to sort out your best amount and dosing frequency.

Why calcium? If you are not deficient, there is some evidence that it can lead to calcification of arteries, heart disease and dementia.

 

[trt reznor]

Thanks. I'd just reiterate with SHBG at 28 you may benefit from more frequent injections. also, the 60-80 split is a bit odd and may keep your body guessing all the time.

And this is biased, based on my own experience and my SHBG is much higher, but I wish I had been started at 100mg/week. Thing is with lower SHBG, many guys do better with more frequent doses at even lower amounts.

Anyway, I hope you are lucky, but it looks like it will take time to sort out your best amount and dosing frequency.

Why calcium? If you are not deficient, there is some evidence that it can lead to calcification of arteries, heart disease and dementia.

I just take it because I don't eat or drink dairy. Just on my own, not Dr. recommended.

I would think i'd like to try 100mg as well. What would you think would be a good way to split it up? I don't mind injecting everyday if that's what works best, obviously I'd prefer not to if I don't have to. But whatever gets me feeling best I'm willing to commit to that.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Hey man I am not your doctor. I think it is most important to work it out there. Just offering my opinion.

First, I would want to know why 140wk.

Anyway, if it was me, I'd want to try 100/wk split into every other day EOD dosing. Rounding down, those are 28mg doses, rounding up, 29mg. Easier to draw to 14 on the syringe for 28mg assuming 200mg/ml T cyp.

Also if you are already injecting HCG every day, you can either combine both and inject subQ daily as one injection or go to EOD for both and do the same. I am currently doing 24mg T cyp and 280iu HCG EOD this way.

 

[trt reznor]

Hey man I am not your doctor. I think it is most important to work it out there. Just offering my opinion.

First, I would want to know why 140wk.

Anyway, if it was me, I'd want to try 100/wk split into every other day EOD dosing. Rounding down, those are 28mg doses, rounding up, 29mg. Easier to draw to 14 on the syringe for 28mg assuming 200mg/ml T cyp.

Also if you are already injecting HCG every day, you can either combine both and inject subQ daily as one injection or go to EOD for both and do the same. I am currently doing 24mg T cyp and 280iu HCG EOD this way.

And you just rotate one shot per day, either hCG or Test? That's kind of what I was thinking. How's that working for you?

 

[Deleted member 16042]

And you just rotate one shot per day, either hCG or Test? That's kind of what I was thinking. How's that working for you?

You can, but I am talking about both in the same syringe.

For me doing this EOD is better than alternating day to day. It is half the shots. If I ever go to daily I'll also combine both in the same injection.

Nelson discusses this starting at 5:50 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=156&v=0uXoBb6mkys

His dose and frequency are not the same as mine, and I inject subQ with 5/16" 30g needle, not shallow IM.

-swab both vials
-draw your T cyp dosage
-draw your HCG dosage into the same syringe
-swab yourself
-inject

 

[trt reznor]

Talked to my Doc today, we decided to give hCG monotherapy a try since that might be all I need. If I don’t like it after several weeks I can mix the T back in.

I’m already taking 375iu twice a week.

Now he wants me to go with 750iu EOD. Seems high to me but I’m not a Dr. I did ask him about possibly going ED with it, he said I could if I wanted to but wasn’t necessary. My thoughts being that it’ll be my best chances against aromatization if I go with the 375iu ED.

Anyone have any thoughts on this dosage or hCG mono therapy in general?

 

[ratbag]

Regular MD's tend to dose heavily on HCG, sometimes the whole vial. But TRT specialists tend to be concerned about leydig cell desensitisation. So the concern here is that if you plan to use HCG regularly then dosing at 750iu EOD may cause leydig cell desensitisation. Not sure why he would put you on so much except in an attempt to improve your TT. I don't believe this a reasonable protocol.

 

[trt reznor]

Regular MD's tend to dose heavily on HCG, sometimes the whole vial. But TRT specialists tend to be concerned about leydig cell desensitisation. So the concern here is that if you plan to use HCG regularly then dosing at 750iu EOD may cause leydig cell desensitisation. Not sure why he would put you on so much except in an attempt to improve your TT. I don't believe this a reasonable protocol.

That’s the thing, he is a TRT specialist that’s been on it himself for over 20 years. And the goal is to raise TT with hCG alone, but I also wondered about desensitization. I’m going to try to find some solid info regarding dosage and desensitization. If you know of a good article please send it my way.

 

[trt reznor]

"It is important that no more than 500IU of hcg be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.""

This is only the first article I’ve come across. But I see no harm in trying 250iu a day for a bit just to make sure I don’t have a strong reaction to it.

 

[trt reznor]

Aaaand my balls are getting smaller. Wonderful.

Started out at 250iu ED, then have been up to the 375iu ED prescribed (actually was prescribed 750iu EOD, but I’m trying to get aromatization at a minimum).

Get a boost of mild euphoria in the morning, though that could at least partially be the L-Theanine that’s compounded with the hCG. Muscles do feel somewhat tighter, even without working out. Went to the gym for the first time in a year and a half today. Have generally more energy throughout the day but not much left by around 3pm. Balls are smaller. Still getting good morning and night wood, libido mildly subdued but still there.

I read an interesting thread about different brands of hCG, and one member getting much better results with a specific brand (Pregnyl), as opposed to the hCG he was getting from the compounding pharmacy (APS in FL, the same one that makes mine), all supported by blood work evidence. He also said his balls were plump on Pregnyl and got smaller on the APS stuff. I phoned the Dr’s office today about trying this other brand Pregnyl and they seem very reluctant to use anything other than APS. I suppose I’ll keep going and finish this next vial and a quarter.

At what point should I start seeing some positive effects from hCG?