This would be applicable to transdermal delivery or injections of pure testosterone. But in the case of injected testosterone esters, no aromatization can take place until the ester is cleaved from the testosterone, and this requires the esterase enzymes, which are in the plasma. In other words, regardless of delivery method, nothing much happens until after absorption, and by that time there's no distinguishing between different sources of the esters.
Erection quality issues
antelopers
Active Member
Yeah I truly don't know why. But I know for a fact that subq doubled my e2 and cut my total testosterone nearly in half.
How long is the needle? Half inch? And is it IM? I will get some tomorrow.
What are the actual facts? That is, how many directly comparable measurements do you have? Which assay type for estradiol? Did you ever get multiple measurements in an injection cycle to measure area under the curve?
antelopers
Active Member
Here are my numbers. All trough reading. At no point did I make any drastic changes to diet, lifestyle, exercise, or sleep.
3 months on 40mg e3d IM
Total T: 673
SHBG: 35
E2 Sensitive: 21
6 months on 40mg e3d IM
Total T: 679
SHBG: 35
E2 Sensitive: 22
6 weeks on 40mg e3d SubQ
Total T: 379
SHBG: 37
E2 Sensitive: 44
12 weeks on 40mg e3d SubQ
Total T: 397
SHBG: 36
E2 Sensitive: 42
At this point I discontinued SubQ and ran 50mg e3d IM.
Total T: 829
SHBG: 35
E2 Sensitive: 30
I'd view the use of the sensitive assay for estradiol as a weakness, given that it's capable of producing large errors. Countering that to an extent are the multiple consistent measurements. Even if the error rate were as high as what I've experienced, the odds of having both SQ estradiol measurements off would be under 10%. So it's unsatisfying to simply dismiss them as inaccurate. Also, the clinical trial results would suggest higher estradiol and higher testosterone at the troughs for SQ. As franksepe suggests above, estradiol should be following testosterone. The inconsistency is such that it's hard to envision what multiple inter-injection samples would look like and how they would be compatible with existing research and theory. It's a long-winded way of saying your results are interesting and hard to explain, but probably don't represent novel pharmacokinetics or pharmacodynamics.
antelopers
Active Member
Appreciate your insight on it as always. I realize this isn't a common response and that subq works just fine for most men. I just happen to be one of those outliers that have weird responses to medications sometimes.
antelopers
Active Member
A little off topic but I trust your knowledge and wanted to ask. With cypionate intramuscular, how long does it take for an injection to start increasing T in the blood and what's an average peak time after injection?
I agree with @wondering that plasma levels of testosterone should start rising very soon after an injection. I'm going to diverge on the question of when the peak occurs. I suspect it is most likely in the range of 2-8 hours post-injection, and almost certainly in under 12 hours. I base this on research, theory and my own results.
In particular, some work by Behre and Nieschlag is already consistent with peaks occurring in less than a day for propionate and enanthate. Here's the curve for enanthate:
The theory is easily illustrated with the simple bi-exponential model. There are two parameters to set: the half-life for the absorption, something like five days for cypionate, and the half-life for the elimination of testosterone in serum, which is estimated to be in the range of 10-100 minutes. For the latter, I'm partial to a figure of 30 minutes, but even if 100 minutes is used the peaks still occur in the first few hours. Here's a sample I ran for propionate with a little different model for absorption, but still with an apparent absorption half-life of about 0.8 days, and T usage half-life of 30 minutes. This is a step further, summing results to show what each day looks like with daily injections.
My limited measurements with daily propionate have at least been consistent with this model. I had taken several trough measurements, coming back in range of 300-500 ng/dL, depending on dose. Based on these I predicted a peak of roughly 1,100 ng/dL for a particular dose. Then I took a measurement at two hours post-injection, which was 1,000 ng/dl. While this single measurement is not too meaningful, it at least supports the idea of a rapid rise in serum testosterone.
I just recalled that @bp recently shared similar results here for his daily propionate injections.
Protocol was :
70mg/week (propionate) ED injection (10mg /day)
Bloodwork was mental tbh.
My daily deviation was massive.
TT:1100 (at 10.00, 2 hours after pin)
TT:350 (08:00 , 2 hours before pin)
antelopers
Active Member
Great information. Thank you
madman
Super Moderator
Regardless of what esterified T is used blood levels will increase within the first 2 hrs post injection.
Peak blood levels using enanthate or cypionate can be anywhere from 24-48 hrs post injection and yes in some cases peak can be achieved sooner.
No one can tell you exactly when blood levels will peak as there are other factors which may affect the absorption/release rate of esterified testosterone from the oily depot.
Whether one is injecting sub-q or IM, type of vehicle/viscosity, dose used, volume injected, injection site (glutes, shoulder, thigh, abdomen),diffusion rate, lymphatic flow.
"Without being adapted to a particular theory, a number of parameters will influence the pharmacokinetic profile of a testosterone ester that is injected intramuscularly, in particularly if a depot effect is desirable. A depot effect can in general be achieved by selecting a testosterone ester that slowly degrades into free testosterone once it has entered the blood circulation. An additional factor contributing to the depot effect is the diffusion rate of the testosterone ester from the site of injection to the circulating blood system. The diffusion rate may depend on the dose and the volume injected in that the concentration gradient of the testosterone ester at the site of administration is thought to affect the diffusion rate. Furthermore, the type of vehicle injected together with the testosterone esters will influence the rate of diffusion of testosterone esters from the vehicle into the surrounding tissues and the rate of absorption into the blood circulation. Therefore, the partition coefficient (n-octanol-water partition coefficient) of the testosterone ester in the vehicle as well as the viscosity of the vehicle should be considered in order for adapting a depot effect following intramuscular injection of testosterone esters."
Much more involved than simply the ester used.
Most studies regarding pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics of the various T esters are using set doses, same injection site, same injection volume, same vehiculum and the majority were done decades ago injecting strictly IM using a small number of subjects.
As we all very well know trt protocols vary greatly between individuals as some are injecting once weekly, twice weekly (every 3.5 days), 3X weekly (M/W/F), EOD, or daily.....using different injection methods (IM or sub-q), using different doses depending on injection frequency/overall weekly dose, using different injection sites (glutes/thighs/shoulders/abdomen), using different carriers (vehicle/viscosity) whether T is (big pharma/compounded).
The only way one would truly know when blood levels peak on a specific protocol is to have blood testing done frequently post injection.....that is if you have the time, money and means to do such as most blood testing labs are only open at specific times throughout the week.
Peak blood levels using enanthate or cypionate can be anywhere from 24-48 hrs post injection and yes in some cases peak can be achieved sooner.
No one can tell you exactly when blood levels will peak as there are other factors which may affect the absorption/release rate of esterified testosterone from the oily depot.
Whether one is injecting sub-q or IM, type of vehicle/viscosity, dose used, volume injected, injection site (glutes, shoulder, thigh, abdomen),diffusion rate, lymphatic flow.
"Without being adapted to a particular theory, a number of parameters will influence the pharmacokinetic profile of a testosterone ester that is injected intramuscularly, in particularly if a depot effect is desirable. A depot effect can in general be achieved by selecting a testosterone ester that slowly degrades into free testosterone once it has entered the blood circulation. An additional factor contributing to the depot effect is the diffusion rate of the testosterone ester from the site of injection to the circulating blood system. The diffusion rate may depend on the dose and the volume injected in that the concentration gradient of the testosterone ester at the site of administration is thought to affect the diffusion rate. Furthermore, the type of vehicle injected together with the testosterone esters will influence the rate of diffusion of testosterone esters from the vehicle into the surrounding tissues and the rate of absorption into the blood circulation. Therefore, the partition coefficient (n-octanol-water partition coefficient) of the testosterone ester in the vehicle as well as the viscosity of the vehicle should be considered in order for adapting a depot effect following intramuscular injection of testosterone esters."
Much more involved than simply the ester used.
Most studies regarding pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics of the various T esters are using set doses, same injection site, same injection volume, same vehiculum and the majority were done decades ago injecting strictly IM using a small number of subjects.
As we all very well know trt protocols vary greatly between individuals as some are injecting once weekly, twice weekly (every 3.5 days), 3X weekly (M/W/F), EOD, or daily.....using different injection methods (IM or sub-q), using different doses depending on injection frequency/overall weekly dose, using different injection sites (glutes/thighs/shoulders/abdomen), using different carriers (vehicle/viscosity) whether T is (big pharma/compounded).
The only way one would truly know when blood levels peak on a specific protocol is to have blood testing done frequently post injection.....that is if you have the time, money and means to do such as most blood testing labs are only open at specific times throughout the week.
antelopers
Active Member
Thank you for the great info, appreciate all of your posts here as well.
The interesting thing about this problem is that if you focus on the math and assume the half-life for the ester absorption is much longer than the one for depletion then you find that the time to peak serum level is almost solely dependent on the depletion half-life, the one that's in the range of 10-100 minutes.
I'm fairly confident that this model can be applied to propionate with good results, and it may also work for enanthate and cypionate. The data for undecanoate in the Nieschlag reference suggest some added complexity there.
Here's the math for those who are into such:
Say the function D(t) is the amount of testosterone in the injected depot as a function of time. The standard model assumes that the depot is depleted at a rate proportional to its size. This means:
d(D(t))/dt = -kd * D(t)
where kd is the time constant for absorption, e.g. ln(2)/(5 days) for cypionate. The normal next step is to create the equation for the rate of change of serum testosterone levels, the latter represented by B(t):
d(B(t))/dt = kd * D(t) - kb * B(t)
Where kb is the depletion time constant, e.g. ln(2)/(0.5 hours). This pair of equations is usually integrated numerically. I'm not sure there is a closed form solution.
We can greatly simplify things by looking at the limit where infusion of testosterone is constant instead of declining.
To correct the units set:
kd1 = k * kd
Then:
d(D(t))/dt = -kd1
d(B(t))/dt = kd1 - kb * B(t)
This has a closed form solution:
B(t) = B0 * (1 - exp(-kb * t))
B0 is a constant, also the level of testosterone at infinite time. The point here is that the result shows a relative time independence from kd, the absorption time constant.
petersongod
New Member
I had erection problems for half a year because I worked 12 hours and slept much less than I should have. I found out that my wife started cheating on me with her masseur during that time. I was very angry with her and immediately filed for divorce.
petersongod
New Member
After that, the sister of my now ex-wife came to visit me to find out what the problem was. I told her everything, and she gave me a remedy to increase potency and told me to take it 15 minutes before intercourse. I decided to try it right away, and in 10 minutes, the effect was already there. My ex-wife's sister noticed it and became aroused. In the end, we slept together, and she came so powerfully that she could not get out of bed afterward 
Homeopathic remedy or something herbal, if you care to elaborate?
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