Dr. Eugene Shippen on estradiol, aromatization...

[Dr. John Crisler]

Not sure if women having higher estrogen levels is the reason they have an increased risk for Alzheimer’s. Alzheimer’s is basically caused by two main factors, from my understanding. Insulin resistance, and neurons in the brain becoming damaged. Alzheimer’s/ dementia are basically called type 3 diabetes at this point. Testosterone, as far as I know, is one of the most important things to maintain insulin sensitivity. Almost every diabetic male will have low testosterone levels. It’s possible that older women having even lower testosterone levels than older men could increase their risk of becoming insulin resistant, and therefore increase their risk for Alzheimer’s. The other reason that women might be at a higher risk is because they frequently are low in b12. Low b12 is much more common in women than in men. B12 is extremely important in regards to neuron health. Part of the reason is because without b12, the myolin sheath that protects these neurons starts to deteriorate, and the neurons start to become damaged, and this can eventually lead to brain diseases like Alzheimer’s/ dementia.

As far as estrogen increasing autoimmune diseases, I’m not sure. I haven’t done much research in regards to the correlation between the two.

Women get Alzheimer's when their estrogen is falling off, after menopause. Good estrogen levels are clearly needed for brain health in both men and women. That is why we must not lower it too far. Or at all, if possible.

 

[captain]

Is there only one aromatase enzyme or many? Is it possible that the brain and body have different aromatase enzyme thing going on like the thyroid and deiodinase enzyme?

 

[Gman86]

That has been shown in every study looking at it in men so far. But what did every study do? Use, for instance, a milligram of anastrozole per day. A milligram a week is a fairly substantial dose for a man on TRT. Why would we use studies where they administered 7 times too much of a drug? Any drug.

0.5mg per week can be a very large dose for some. Guys here are starting to have success with as low as 0.125mg per week, or twice per week. These are the doses we need to see studies use, oh and on MEN, not WOMEN, by the way

 

[Gman86]

Women get Alzheimer's when their estrogen is falling off, after menopause. Good estrogen levels are clearly needed for brain health in both men and women. That is why we must not lower it too far. Or at all, if possible.

Exactly! It’s the dropping of their estrogen that causes issues as they get older. Same with men. As their testosterone drops, subsequently their estrogen drops as well. This is seen much more frequently than the case of a guy having low testosterone but high estrogen, due to all the testosterone converting into estrogen. It’s much more likely that as a man’s testosterone drops, his estrogen is going to linearly drop along with it.

 

[DragonBits]

Women get Alzheimer's when their estrogen is falling off, after menopause. Good estrogen levels are clearly needed for brain health in both men and women. That is why we must not lower it too far. Or at all, if possible.

Why don't they treat menopausal women with estrogen to prevent alzheimer's?

 

[Gman86]

Why don't they treat menopausal women with estrogen to prevent alzheimer's?

No money in it. Pure and simple. Since there's no money in it, there's no studies to prove Estrogen's effects on preventing Alzheimer's. Big studies cost big bucks. Much more money than most people think. Anyone conducting those studies is only going to do so if they can expect a return on their money. There's just no return with bioidentical estrogen.

But menopausal women do get treated with Estrogen, and without knowing, do decrease their risk of getting Alzheimer's. So I'm sure there are doctors out there giving menopausal women estrogen, to optimize their hormones and decrease their risk of Alzheimer's, but they cannot prescribe it for that due to there being no peer reviewed studies to back up this claim.

 

[dnfuss]

No money in it. Pure and simple. Since there's no money in it, there's no studies to prove Estrogen's effects on preventing Alzheimer's. Big studies cost big bucks. Much more money than most people think. Anyone conducting those studies is only going to do so if they can expect a return on their money. There's just no return with bioidentical estrogen.

But menopausal women do get treated with Estrogen, and without knowing, do decrease their risk of getting Alzheimer's. So I'm sure there are doctors out there giving menopausal women estrogen, to optimize their hormones and decrease their risk of Alzheimer's, but they cannot prescribe it for that due to there being no peer reviewed studies to back up this claim.

Agree, as you say, that it is highly unlikely any double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trials of non-patented hormones will ever be conducted, whether in respect of Alzheimer's disease or any other pathology.

As to your ultimate point, it is my understanding that medical doctors in the United States are permitted to prescribe any FDA-approved drug for any purpose. Uses other than those set forth in the prescribing information are simply "off-label." Is that not the case?

 

[Gman86]

Agree, as you say, that it is highly unlikely any double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trials of non-patented hormones will ever be conducted, whether in respect of Alzheimer's disease or any other pathology.

As to your ultimate point, it is my understanding that medical doctors in the United States are permitted to prescribe any FDA-approved drug for any purpose. Uses other than those set forth in the prescribing information are simply "off-label." Is that not the case?

Ya I believe you’re correct. I mean, some of us here are prescribed HCG for “off-label” purposes, so you must be right. I’m sure there are doctors out there that prescribe bio-identical estrogen to women for Alzheimer/ dementia prevention purposes. On paper, they probably just prescribe it under the diagnoses of menopause, or estrogen deficiency, I would imagine. I think to prescribe a medication, it just has to relate to a diagnoses. But with the whole “off-label” thing being such a broad term, i’d imagine that there’s so much wiggle room with that term that a doctor can pretty much prescribe any FDA approved drug for whatever reason they like.

 

[Vince Carter]

Agree, as you say, that it is highly unlikely any double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trials of non-patented hormones will ever be conducted, whether in respect of Alzheimer's disease or any other pathology.

As to your ultimate point, it is my understanding that medical doctors in the United States are permitted to prescribe any FDA-approved drug for any purpose. Uses other than those set forth in the prescribing information are simply "off-label." Is that not the case?

In this litigous society I'm sure that every Dr has this pass thru their mind; off label.

 

[Vince Carter]

That has been shown in every study looking at it in men so far. But what did every study do? Use, for instance, a milligram of anastrozole per day. A milligram a week is a fairly substantial dose for a man on TRT. Why would we use studies where they administered 7 times too much of a drug? Any drug.

For this reason I usually pay little attention to the studies that guys are posting on the forums, the particulars of these studies just aren't realistic.

 

[DragonBits]

No money in it. Pure and simple. Since there's no money in it, there's no studies to prove Estrogen's effects on preventing Alzheimer's. Big studies cost big bucks. Much more money than most people think. Anyone conducting those studies is only going to do so if they can expect a return on their money. There's just no return with bioidentical estrogen.

But menopausal women do get treated with Estrogen, and without knowing, do decrease their risk of getting Alzheimer's. So I'm sure there are doctors out there giving menopausal women estrogen, to optimize their hormones and decrease their risk of Alzheimer's, but they cannot prescribe it for that due to there being no peer reviewed studies to back up this claim.

50% I disagree. For sure if a drug can't be patented, there isn't going to be a strong interest in spending shareholders money on a low profit low margin drug/solution.

However, the Government NIH typically funds these types of studies into supplements / generic medications. LIke studies into fish oil studied by the NIH.

Anything that can lessen Alzheimer's would pay back big bucks for the Government AKA, Medicare savings. So the NIH or other government funded agencies have an incentive.

Certainly there is big money even in generic supplements, AKA, fish oil, CQ10, etc.

What I was thinking, IF estrogen provides any protection, women should be far more protected till the age of 45.

After that, aging men and women are roughtly equal in terms of estrgoen. Men have lower estrogen because they have lower testosterone, IE, without TRT my E2 is typical below the level they can measure. <5.

Women live longer, this isn't important BECAUSE this is about men and women at age 65. Women have far more Alzheimer's than men at that same age.

The most likely reason there aren't studies of estrogen and Alzheimer's is that there isn't any evidence that high levels of estrogen are protective for Alzheimer's. Indeed, high levels of estrogen are strongly suspected of causing a higher rate of autoimmune diseases like lupus, MS, etc.

For instance:

"Women have three 3 times the rate of MS than men.
Testosterone didn't affect the men's results. Instead, estradiol was important. Men with multiple sclerosis and the highest estradiol levels had a greater degree of brain tissue damage."

Sex Hormones May Affect Multiple Sclerosis

If you look at various autoimmune diseases you see a correlation with high levels of estrogen, and often normal levels of testosterone is more protective in regards to autoimmune problems, though high levels of testos can be a bad thing also.

 

[Vince]

50% I disagree. For sure if a drug can't be patented, there isn't going to be a strong interest in spending shareholders money on a low profit low margin drug/solution.

However, the Government NIH typically funds these types of studies into supplements / generic medications. LIke studies into fish oil studied by the NIH.

Anything that can lessen Alzheimer's would pay back big bucks for the Government AKA, Medicare savings. So the NIH or other government funded agencies have an incentive.

Certainly there is big money even in generic supplements, AKA, fish oil, CQ10, etc.

What I was thinking, IF estrogen provides any protection, women should be far more protected till the age of 45.

After that, aging men and women are roughtly equal in terms of estrgoen. Men have lower estrogen because they have lower testosterone, IE, without TRT my E2 is typical below the level they can measure. <5.

Women live longer, this isn't important BECAUSE this is about men and women at age 65. Women have far more Alzheimer's than men at that same age.

The most likely reason there aren't studies of estrogen and Alzheimer's is that there isn't any evidence that high levels of estrogen are protective for Alzheimer's. Indeed, high levels of estrogen are strongly suspected of causing a higher rate of autoimmune diseases like lupus, MS, etc.

For instance:

"Women have three 3 times the rate of MS than men.
Testosterone didn't affect the men's results. Instead, estradiol was important. Men with multiple sclerosis and the highest estradiol levels had a greater degree of brain tissue damage."

Sex Hormones May Affect Multiple Sclerosis

If you look at various autoimmune diseases you see a correlation with high levels of estrogen, and often normal levels of testosterone is more protective in regards to autoimmune problems, though high levels of testos can be a bad thing also.

I never would have thought that women have a greater chance of Alzheimer's then men and MS. Interesting stuff.

 

[Gman86]

50% I disagree. For sure if a drug can't be patented, there isn't going to be a strong interest in spending shareholders money on a low profit low margin drug/solution.

However, the Government NIH typically funds these types of studies into supplements / generic medications. LIke studies into fish oil studied by the NIH.

Anything that can lessen Alzheimer's would pay back big bucks for the Government AKA, Medicare savings. So the NIH or other government funded agencies have an incentive.

Certainly there is big money even in generic supplements, AKA, fish oil, CQ10, etc.

What I was thinking, IF estrogen provides any protection, women should be far more protected till the age of 45.

After that, aging men and women are roughtly equal in terms of estrgoen. Men have lower estrogen because they have lower testosterone, IE, without TRT my E2 is typical below the level they can measure. <5.

Women live longer, this isn't important BECAUSE this is about men and women at age 65. Women have far more Alzheimer's than men at that same age.

The most likely reason there aren't studies of estrogen and Alzheimer's is that there isn't any evidence that high levels of estrogen are protective for Alzheimer's. Indeed, high levels of estrogen are strongly suspected of causing a higher rate of autoimmune diseases like lupus, MS, etc.

For instance:

"Women have three 3 times the rate of MS than men.
Testosterone didn't affect the men's results. Instead, estradiol was important. Men with multiple sclerosis and the highest estradiol levels had a greater degree of brain tissue damage."

Sex Hormones May Affect Multiple Sclerosis

If you look at various autoimmune diseases you see a correlation with high levels of estrogen, and often normal levels of testosterone is more protective in regards to autoimmune problems, though high levels of testos can be a bad thing also.

Yes very interesting info, and I love your thought process on these things, and just your thought process in general. I’d have to agree with pretty much everything you’ve said.

Here’s my thoughts on this whole E2 and women thing. I don’t think women get more benefits from E2, just because they have higher levels. Lets say hypothetically men’s E2 range is 20-50. And women’s E2 range is 100-200. I think it matters more where each gender’s E2 falls within their respected gender range. For instance, I think for a male to get all the benefits of E2, his E2 would need to be near the top of the range (let’s exclude the whole free E2 topic for right now), and I think women would have to probably keep their levels near the top of their E2 range to get all the benefits and protection from E2, as well. I dont think that if a woman had an E2 of 80, which would actually be below her recommended range, that she would receive more benefit from E2 than a male that has optimal E2 levels at say 45. I think men and women need to have different levels of hormones to receive optimal benefits from each hormone. I don’t think the numbers just criss cross like that between genders.

I mean, just look at testosterone for example. The top end for men is around 1000. For women, it’s around 70. So a male with a testosterone of 200, isn’t receiving 3x the benefits of testosterone as a women that has a testosterone level of 70, which is top end for their respected gender. In fact, that woman is receiving all the benefits of testosterone, and the male’s health is greatly at risk because he is receiving basically none of the benefits. He is extremely low, while the women has an optimal testosterone level and should be experiencing all the subjective/ objective benefits of testosterone, even though her level is 3x lower than the male’s is, number wise at least. So I see no reason why estrogen would be any different. We can’t just carry over numbers like this.

The reason I am saying this is because just because women have technically more estrogen in their bodies, I’m not sure if that means they are more protected and receive more benefits of this hormone than we do. I think it probably has more to do with just having optimal levels of it within our respected gender ranges.

And on a side note, I think we are focusing too much on estrogen, when it comes to Alzheimer’s prevention. I think B vitamin absorption might be a bigger player here. Women have a tendency to not absorb b12, specifically, which is neuroprotective. Without b12, the myolin sheath gets destroyed, and then the neurons get destroyed, and then you end up with things like Alzheimer’s. I think this might be the cause of women getting alzheimer’s at a higher rate than estrogen. I think it’s probably a mix of the two, amongst other factors, but I think b12 might play a bigger role than estrogen. But again, like with everything, I could be wrong.

 

[Dr. John Crisler]

0.5mg per week can be a very large dose for some. Guys here are starting to have success with as low as 0.125mg per week, or twice per week. These are the doses we need to see studies use, oh and on MEN, not WOMEN, by the way

Well said.