Dr. Crisler, SQ, and studies?

[Spetzal]

I was watching one of the late Dr. Crisler’s videos….i believe he mentioned there or in a blog that SQ injections end up raising T levels about 20% higher than same dose on IM

i.e. 80mg total weekly SQ would get results like 100mg total weekly IM

please someone correct me, as i think im not fully understanding this. please post links to articles or threads that support this. Any studies done?

@Nelson Vergel please post link to threads or articles youve posted, im getting info overload on my searches

 

[tareload]

Pharmacokinetic misunderstanding is my hypothesis:

Intramuscular vs SubQutaneous Injections for Testosterone

100 mg/week of TC IM vs SQ IM modeled as 4.5 day elimination half life and 8 hr absorption half life SQ modeled as 8 day elimination half life and 16 hr absorption half life E7D injections and typical clearance volume… IM is orange and SQ is blue. If you were only looking at trough TT...

forums.t-nation.com

See this post and the thread. Easy to make this mistake if you don't measure Area Under Curve or understand differences in absorption / elimination half life between the two injection methods.

 

[tareload]

Intramuscular vs SubQutaneous Injections for Testosterone

The misinformation on here regarding IM vs SQ injections and resulting serum TT levels is staggering but understandable. The area under the curve (AUC) will be invariant to injection method (IM vs SQ) for equivalent testosterone ester dose. There can be a measurable difference in...

forums.t-nation.com

 

[captain]

I recall that he believed that some could lower their dose on SQ daily compared to weekly IM.

 

[Spetzal]

My takeaway after reading: no significant difference in total T between SQ and IM if testing is done at appropriate times. Since im carrying an extra 90 pounds in my belly, it will probably take a higher weekly total dose via SQ to achieve similar results by a lower dose IM. Also, SQ is gonna take several weeks to fully saturate and notice any improvement because of the tummy fat.

would it matter (be better) to inject SQ in a body area with less fat?

 

[captain]

You will see no difference I would guess. The benefit of SQ is a smaller Syringe with more frequent dose.

 

[Spetzal]

Well, i did the IM for several years, but with nerve damage in my legs and living alone now, its gotta be the SQ route…..so i guess its “suck it up” time, cuz the next few weeks are gonna be rough waiting for the SQ fat/saturations issue to settle….

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Comparison of Outcomes for Hypogonadal Men Treated with Intramuscular Testosterone Cypionate versus Subcutaneous Testosterone Enanthate

SIU Academy. Choi E. 10/10/20; 309864; BSP-06.01



Subcutaneous Injection of Testosterone Is an Effective and Preferred Alternative to Intramuscular Injection: Demonstration in Female-to-Male Transgender Patients

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Volume 102, Issue 7, 1 July 2017, Pages 2349–2355



Pharmacokinetics and Acceptability of Subcutaneous Injection of Testosterone Undecanoate

J Endocr Soc. 2019 Aug 1; 3(8): 1531–1540.

 

[Spetzal]

Ive read several excellent threads under/associated with the “testosterone basics” section on this forum. I see people talking about injecting into the “shoulders”, but i didnt see that mentioned on the formal guides i saw. Did a search, find more people talkmg about it…but no photos/descriptions/videos. Can someone point me in the right direction?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Ive read several excellent threads under/associated with the “testosterone basics” section on this forum. I see people talking about injecting into the “shoulders”, but i didnt see that mentioned on the formal guides i saw. Did a search, find more people talkmg about it…but no photos/descriptions/videos. Can someone point me in the right direction?

How to Inject Testosterone Intramuscularly, Shallow IM or Subcutaneously ?

Click here to watch videos on how to inject testosterone intramuscularly or subcutaneously More information on subcutaneous testosterone injections: https://www.discountedlabs.com/blog/intramuscular-vs-subcutaneous-testosterone-injections-are-they-both-effective Subcutaneous Testosterone...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Spetzal]

@Nelson Vergel yes, i saw the pic of the shallow IM deltoid and watched it referenced in that video also. Perhaps im getting confused by the word “shoulder”? To me, “shoulder” is a fairly large region..Could you please clarify?

 

[tareload]

@Nelson Vergel yes, i saw the pic of the shallow IM deltoid and watched it referenced in that video also. Perhaps im getting confused by the word “shoulder”? To me, “shoulder” is a fairly large region..Could you please clarify?

2nd video he shared. Medial deltoid.

Here is the pic in the thread he shared:

 

[Spetzal]

We are talking at cross purposes. Its a question of defining terms, medical and layman. “Deltoid” is a specific anatomical location, “shoulder” is a region. Thats the confusion. I do thank everyone for their assistance, everyone on this forum has been incredibly patient and helpful. Based on the responses on this thread, i now understand that people are using the terms interchangably.

 

[Graham]

I was a patient of Dr Crisler, I tried sub q and a dosage injected IM got me to say 700-800 ng when given sub q (belly fat) maybe got me to 400 ng. I never looked back but I am interested if the absorption rates are different in other parts of the body such as the glutes.

 

[BadassBlues]

Dr. C believed (correctly) that Sub Q injections were preferable due to splitting the dose into 2 per week. By doing this, you eliminate the extreme low trough of weekly IM injections. Also, a smaller dose resulted in lower aromatase activity, even when injected into adipose tissue. It was proven that Sub Q injections resulted in less conversion to E2.

The down sides? If you use the same injection site you develop small bumps and leathery skin in that area. You have to move it around a lot to avoid that. Sometimes the bumps can become inflamed...not pleasant.

He had a great tutorial video that explained all of this.

I was on this protocol for years until just recently. I used a 28 gauge insulin syringe. Very easy and painless, albeit a little slow to fill.

I am trying T Gel for a few months to try and get back to a more natural ebb and flow... another Crisler recommendation, along with daily small HCG injections to replace the missing LH.

The man scored some real home runs... I really miss him.

 

[bixt]

I was a patient of Dr Crisler, I tried sub q and a dosage injected IM got me to say 700-800 ng when given sub q (belly fat) maybe got me to 400 ng. I never looked back but I am interested if the absorption rates are different in other parts of the body such as the glutes.

Hey @madman , heres another statistic for you!

 

[madman]

Hey @madman , heres another statistic for you!

Hey, madman, he said so!

LMFAO.

Still clueless I see!

When does estrogen become a concern?

There is a fair bit of speculation that this is the case. Moreover, with scrotal cream DHT can get very high, which also counteracts estradiol, both in creation and in receptor binding. Interesting. In theory I see how it should counteract the creation. However, my labs just came back on the...

www.excelmale.com

As mentioned, I have done absolutely ZERO bloodwork to date. I simply tried ever increasing doses till I felt great (probably after my free T went over the range).

I am NOT advocating anyone else here tries my novel approach, but everyone seems to do bloodwork and then still proceeds to adjust dosing, adding compounds, blaming E2, etc. So whats the point? Getting free T over the range (which was really my great grandfathers within range) seems to be key to feeling great. Increasing dosing is the only way to accomplish that.




Better yet would not even show my mug on here this is f**king embarrassing!

Tread lightly when it comes to dishing out advice on here.

You would be far better off on one of those other bumass forums!

 

[madman]

Hey @madman , heres another statistic for you!

Bloodwork 80mg IM vs SubQ

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/bloodwork-80mg-subq-vs-im.171482/ Fresh fresh bloodwork @madman @Cataceous Yeah yeah, he didn't mention the assays used. Guess what, I don't care! I have been preaching this mantra for a while now, and new bloodwork keeps popping...

www.excelmale.com

The men on all those forums represent a tiny slice of the trt pie!

Go home and take some of those other piss ants lurking on here with you!

 

[equel]

Madman being cringy as usual.

SubQ often makes for less testosterone and higher e2 in the blood. Demonstrated tons of times thruout most TRT/bodybuilder forums, even on here.

Me personally: Cut my T in half and doubled my e2.

The few - non peer revieved BTW - studies done on subQ are _shit_ and nothin else.


SubQ is usually suboptimal, period.

I would love madman to get in an argument with broderick chavez about this. 2 old grumpy men going at it - and yes madman, you would get crushed totally.

NEXT

 

[Willyt]

These endless debates about subq versus IM baffle me. Try both protocols and see which one you like better. It's that simple.