Does Testosterone Replacement Affect the Thyroid?

[Nelson Vergel]

From the Labcorp site (info on thyroid binding globulin)

"TBG is increased by estrogens, tamoxifen, pregnancy, perphenazine, and in some cases of liver disease, including hepatitis. Decreased TBG is found with some instances of chronic liver disease, nephrosis and systemic disease, and with large amounts of glucocorticoids, androgens/anabolic steroids, and acromegaly. "

I think the effect of testosterone doses under 150 mg per week should not considerably lower TBG

This study in female to male transgenders using a high T dose of 500 mg per week corroborated that statement:


Eur J Endocrinol. 2006 Jul;155(1):11-6.

The effects of sex-steroid administration on the pituitary-thyroid axis in transsexuals.
Bisschop PH1, Toorians AW, Endert E, Wiersinga WM, Gooren LJ, Fliers E.


Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
Estrogen and androgen administration modulate the pituitary-thyroid axis through alterations in thyroid hormone-binding globulin (TBG) metabolism, but the effects of sex steroids on extrathyroidal thyroxine (T4) to triiodothyronine (T3) conversion in humans are unknown.

DESIGN AND METHODS:
We studied 36 male-to-female and 14 female-to-male euthyroid transsexuals at baseline and after 4 months of hormonal treatment. Male-to-female transsexuals were treated with cyproterone acetate (CA) 100 mg/day alone (n = 10) or in combination with either oral ethinyl estradiol (or-EE) 100 microg/day (n = 14) or transdermal 17beta-estradiol (td-E) 100 microg twice a week (n = 12). Female-to-male transsexuals were treated with i.m. testosterone 250 mg twice a week. A t-test was used to test for differences within groups and ANOVA with post hoc analysis to test for differences between the groups.

RESULTS:
Or-EE increased TBG (100 +/- 12%, P < .001) and testosterone decreased TBG (-14 +/- 4%, P = 0.01), but free T4 did not change. Td-E and CA did not affect TBG concentrations. TSH was not different between groups at baseline or after treatment. CA decreased T3/T4 ratios (-9 +/- 3%, P = 0.04), suggesting that T4 to T3 conversion was lower. Testosterone increased T3/T4 ratios (30 +/- 9%, P = 0.02), which probably reflects higher T4 to T3 conversion.

CONCLUSION:
Oral but not transdermal estradiol increases TBG, whereas testosterone lowers TBG. Testosterone increases T3/T4 ratios. Estradiol does not affect T3/T4 ratios, irrespective of the route of administration.

 

[DragonBits]

I feel TRT did increase my T3, but it would be difficult to prove.

I think it did that because I was taking 0.75 grains of NDT, (45mg), and my T3 went up from 2.8 > 4.2 ng/dl. That is a pretty large gain for a small dose.

I stopped taking NDT for a while, and will retest at some point in the near future.

Of course, even if my T3 is higher than 2.8 ng/dl, it could have been some other factor than the testosterone.

 

[wernerbrewer]

Nelson,

Did Matthew ever respond to his comment about research?

 

[Gianluca]

I feel TRT did increase my T3, but it would be difficult to prove.

I think it did that because I was taking 0.75 grains of NDT, (45mg), and my T3 went up from 2.8 > 4.2 ng/dl. That is a pretty large gain for a small dose.

I stopped taking NDT for a while, and will retest at some point in the near future.

Of course, even if my T3 is higher than 2.8 ng/dl, it could have been some other factor than the testosterone.

doesn't the Thyroid stop producing hormone as well when the body it is given exogenous hormone?

 

[Gianluca]

BONETTI GIANLUCA - I'm actually in the process of trying to get magnesium shots prescribed. Where did you get them from? I tried getting the 50% 5 grams/ 10ml solution of magnesium sulfate prescribed but they said that was only for IV administration. I'm trying to figured out where I can send the prescription to get the form I can inject IM.

SYSTEMLORD - While on TRT my TSH has been similar to yours, 0.63 on my last bloodwork. I have low body temps tho, I've been trying to increase my basal morning temps for a long time with no luck unfortunately. No cold extremities tho from what I can tell. As far as magnesium dosages, transdermal you can do as much as you want. Oral just go until you have loose stools, then back it down a bit. The dosage that happens at is different for everyone. Some good forms and brands are Pure Encapsulations Magnesium Glycinate, Remag magnesium chloride liquid from Carolyn Dean, Magnesium chloride spray from Ancient Minerals and Jigsaw Magnesium w/SRT.

DRAGONBITS - That's so funny you mentioned Boron. I literally just ordered Borax on amazon and it came in today. Going to start taking it tomorrow. I also read it can help retain Magnesium. Glad to see another study backing up this claim. Also, he's right about the serum magnesium test. It's a useless test. Your body will do everything and everything it can to keep your serum magnesium level in balance. You would have a heart attack if serum magnesium went out of balance, no exaggeration. Testing the amount in your cells is the most cost effective way to test magnesium levels. There's better tests, but money wise, Magnesium RBC is the test you want. My magnesium serum level is always perfect for example, but RBC has been either on the low end or below the low end of normal every single time I've tested it.

Sorry man I got this a little late, I got them a few times from Defy,

 

[DragonBits]

doesn't the Thyroid stop producing hormone as well when the body it is given exogenous hormone?

I don't know for sure, but I think that is correct. The forum doesn't often talk about that aspect, maybe someone else can chime in.

 

[ratbag]

There is a negative feedback loop. Have a look here:
thyroid negative feedback loop - Google Search

 

[Gianluca]

Pretty much like Testosteorne on LH and FSH, DRAGON BITS, my question arise as you mentioned that you needed to take less Thyroid Medication after TRT as you believed TRT increased your Thyroid level,

 

[DragonBits]

Pretty much like Testosteorne on LH and FSH, DRAGON BITS, my question arise as you mentioned that you needed to take less Thyroid Medication after TRT as you believed TRT increased your Thyroid level,

Not exactly.

As far as I know, my levels are the same after stopping NDT natural desiccated thyroid as they were before. So they returned to normal for me. FT3 of 2.7 on 10/8. But I only took the NDT for about 3 months.

I have read that around 2.8 - 3.2 is ideal for longevity, especially after 60. I didn't seem to have more energy when my FT3 was 4.2 on NDT. I could "feel" the NDT by how my brain sort of felt, kind of a tight buzz feeling. I was only taking 3/4 grain of NDT to get my FT3 to 4.2. Lowering my BG seems to have more of an effect on energy, at least I don't get sleepy after a meal.

Maybe if I had been on NDT for 6 months or longer it would have taken longer for my thyroid to kick back into production.

If my metabolism increased it wasn't obvious and I didn't measure RMR resting metabolic rate. One big reason to start NDT was the hope it would help to lose weight, it didn't seem to help.

I will remeasure thyroid stuff in Feb, I don't really expect a change, but I will have lost at least 28 lbs so maybe it changed. If I get back on NDT at some time in the future I will likely order without a script from Thailand, it's a lot cheaper.

 

[Gianluca]

Not exactly.

As far as I know, my levels are the same after stopping NDT natural desiccated thyroid as they were before. So they returned to normal for me. FT3 of 2.7 on 10/8. But I only took the NDT for about 3 months.

I have read that around 2.8 - 3.2 is ideal for longevity, especially after 60. I didn't seem to have more energy when my FT3 was 4.2 on NDT. I could "feel" the NDT by how my brain sort of felt, kind of a tight buzz feeling. I was only taking 3/4 grain of NDT to get my FT3 to 4.2. Lowering my BG seems to have more of an effect on energy, at least I don't get sleepy after a meal.

Maybe if I had been on NDT for 6 months or longer it would have taken longer for my thyroid to kick back into production.

If my metabolism increased it wasn't obvious and I didn't measure RMR resting metabolic rate. One big reason to start NDT was the hope it would help to lose weight, it didn't seem to help.

I will remeasure thyroid stuff in Feb, I don't really expect a change, but I will have lost at least 28 lbs so maybe it changed. If I get back on NDT at some time in the future I will likely order without a script from Thailand, it's a lot cheaper.

my FT3 has been at 3.2 for 3 years,(LabCorp) although been having all kind issues, and with adrenals as well, at 3.2 I'm symptomatic, I tried about a month a go with Dr. Crisler 60MG of NP thyroid, I felt a difference expecially the first 10 days, then at the 4th or 5th week mark things started to regress quickly, Lab results coming either Monday or Tuesday

 

[Gianluca]

Not exactly.

As far as I know, my levels are the same after stopping NDT natural desiccated thyroid as they were before. So they returned to normal for me. FT3 of 2.7 on 10/8. But I only took the NDT for about 3 months.

I have read that around 2.8 - 3.2 is ideal for longevity, especially after 60. I didn't seem to have more energy when my FT3 was 4.2 on NDT. I could "feel" the NDT by how my brain sort of felt, kind of a tight buzz feeling. I was only taking 3/4 grain of NDT to get my FT3 to 4.2. Lowering my BG seems to have more of an effect on energy, at least I don't get sleepy after a meal.

Maybe if I had been on NDT for 6 months or longer it would have taken longer for my thyroid to kick back into production.

If my metabolism increased it wasn't obvious and I didn't measure RMR resting metabolic rate. One big reason to start NDT was the hope it would help to lose weight, it didn't seem to help.

I will remeasure thyroid stuff in Feb, I don't really expect a change, but I will have lost at least 28 lbs so maybe it changed. If I get back on NDT at some time in the future I will likely order without a script from Thailand, it's a lot cheaper.

by the way Optimal thyroid, FT3, I think is a bit more, 3.4 to 4.2 if i remember correctly, I was told by Doc Saya as well a couple of years ago my Thyroid was a bit lower

 

[DragonBits]

by the way Optimal thyroid, FT3, I think is a bit more, 3.4 to 4.2 if i remember correctly, I was told by Doc Saya as well a couple of years ago my Thyroid was a bit lower

The bottom line for me is I don't accept optimal thyroid being 3.4-4.2 FT3.

At heart I am an engineer, if there are scientific studies with data that show this to be optimal, I have never seen them.

And optimal for what purpose? To increase metabolism, probably true. But is a faster metabolism optimal?

If you google longevity and thyroid, you come up with a lot of studies that say the following.

Conclusions and Relevance At the age of 50 years, participants with low-normal thyroid function live up to 3.5 years longer overall and up to 3.1 years longer without CVD than participants with high-normal thyroid function. These findings provide supporting evidence for a reevaluation of the current reference ranges of thyroid function and can help inform preventive and clinical care.

Life Expectancy Within the Reference Range of Thyroid Function

Then if you look at calories restriction and longevity, you find CR slows metabolism, slows oxidative stress and appears both healthier and leads to longer life.

The first question; do you believe the data and studies? If not, where are the flaws, is there any data from studies on effects of high normal levels of FT3 and other thyroid hormones?

The second question; Is this a question of a trade off between a shorter life with more
oxidative stress or a faster metabolism now worth the shorter life in the future?

The third question; Can you both increase FT3 and thyroid function while at the same time limit oxidative stress, the effects on your heart and neurological system?

I think at the least it's a worthwhile discussion to be had about what is really optimal thyroid levels and why that is optimal and how that affects your life expectancy?

 

[Gman86]

The bottom line for me is I don't accept optimal thyroid being 3.4-4.2 FT3.

At heart I am an engineer, if there are scientific studies with data that show this to be optimal, I have never seen them.

And optimal for what purpose? To increase metabolism, probably true. But is a faster metabolism optimal?

If you google longevity and thyroid, you come up with a lot of studies that say the following.

Conclusions and Relevance At the age of 50 years, participants with low-normal thyroid function live up to 3.5 years longer overall and up to 3.1 years longer without CVD than participants with high-normal thyroid function. These findings provide supporting evidence for a reevaluation of the current reference ranges of thyroid function and can help inform preventive and clinical care.

Life Expectancy Within the Reference Range of Thyroid Function

Then if you look at calories restriction and longevity, you find CR slows metabolism, slows oxidative stress and appears both healthier and leads to longer life.

The first question; do you believe the data and studies? If not, where are the flaws, is there any data from studies on effects of high normal levels of FT3 and other thyroid hormones?

The second question; Is this a question of a trade off between a shorter life with more
oxidative stress or a faster metabolism now worth the shorter life in the future?

The third question; Can you both increase FT3 and thyroid function while at the same time limit oxidative stress, the effects on your heart and neurological system?

I think at the least it's a worthwhile discussion to be had about what is really optimal thyroid levels and why that is optimal and how that affects your life expectancy?

Wow very interesting points! My gut would have to agree with you. It makes logical sense. It’s like a discussion I had with another member about IGF-1. Lower levels have been linked to increased longevity. So it’s more of a personal decision we each have to make. Do we want higher IGF-1 levels due to all of its benefits, or do we want to live longer?

I personally believe balance is the key to life. So I will try to find an optimal balance between the two. I personally think you are on to something in regards to free T3, and will also try to find the best balance with that as well.

It only makes sense what you are saying. There’s no biological free lunch. There’s always going to be a counterbalance anytime you try to keep hormone levels at a high level. It just comes down to what we individually want to do with our own bodies. I’m sure people are going to have varying opinions on what’s optimal, due to their personal preferences and goals being different from one another.

 

[Gianluca]

The bottom line for me is I don't accept optimal thyroid being 3.4-4.2 FT3.

At heart I am an engineer, if there are scientific studies with data that show this to be optimal, I have never seen them.

And optimal for what purpose? To increase metabolism, probably true. But is a faster metabolism optimal?

If you google longevity and thyroid, you come up with a lot of studies that say the following.

Conclusions and Relevance At the age of 50 years, participants with low-normal thyroid function live up to 3.5 years longer overall and up to 3.1 years longer without CVD than participants with high-normal thyroid function. These findings provide supporting evidence for a reevaluation of the current reference ranges of thyroid function and can help inform preventive and clinical care.

Life Expectancy Within the Reference Range of Thyroid Function

Then if you look at calories restriction and longevity, you find CR slows metabolism, slows oxidative stress and appears both healthier and leads to longer life.

The first question; do you believe the data and studies? If not, where are the flaws, is there any data from studies on effects of high normal levels of FT3 and other thyroid hormones?

The second question; Is this a question of a trade off between a shorter life with more
oxidative stress or a faster metabolism now worth the shorter life in the future?

The third question; Can you both increase FT3 and thyroid function while at the same time limit oxidative stress, the effects on your heart and neurological system?

I think at the least it's a worthwhile discussion to be had about what is really optimal thyroid levels and why that is optimal and how that affects your life expectancy?

I think i agree, like all hormones, too much can increase the onset of disease, but I think we can all agree that too low also do the same,

Sub clinical Hypo ans the Heart:
Hypothyroidism and the Heart

Relationship of NAFLD and Hypo:
Relationship between Hypothyroidism and Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis


I think we should probably focus more on the symptoms rather than levels, my bad to mention "optimal levels" in the first place, my FT being at 3.2 I'm all symptomatic, cold hands, feet, HR at rest below 70, fatigue, shortness of breath when exercising, outer eyebrow gone, thin hair plus loss, and if I can remeber before TRT I think I always complained about the cold weather and often having cold hands feet, but all started to worsen after 8/10 months on TRT, getting me a point, lately, where I have developed Hypo symptoms.

 

[Gman86]

I think i agree, like all hormones, too much can increase the onset of disease, but I think we can all agree that too low also do the same,

Sub clinical Hypo ans the Heart:
Hypothyroidism and the Heart

Relationship of NAFLD and Hypo:
Relationship between Hypothyroidism and Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis


I think we should probably focus more on the symptoms rather than levels, my bad to mention "optimal levels" in the first place, my FT being at 3.2 I'm all symptomatic, cold hands, feet, HR at rest below 70, fatigue, shortness of breath when exercising, outer eyebrow gone, thin hair plus loss, and if I can remeber before TRT I think I always complained about the cold weather and often having cold hands feet, but all started to worsen after 8/10 months on TRT, getting me a point, lately, where I have developed Hypo symptoms.

Absolutely. Being symptomatic or not is definitely what we should put the most emphasis on. Very good points as well.

 

[DragonBits]

I think i agree, like all hormones, too much can increase the onset of disease, but I think we can all agree that too low also do the same,

Sub clinical Hypo ans the Heart:
Hypothyroidism and the Heart

Relationship of NAFLD and Hypo:
Relationship between Hypothyroidism and Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis


I think we should probably focus more on the symptoms rather than levels, my bad to mention "optimal levels" in the first place, my FT being at 3.2 I'm all symptomatic, cold hands, feet, HR at rest below 70, fatigue, shortness of breath when exercising, outer eyebrow gone, thin hair plus loss, and if I can remeber before TRT I think I always complained about the cold weather and often having cold hands feet, but all started to worsen after 8/10 months on TRT, getting me a point, lately, where I have developed Hypo symptoms.

From your link, hypo typically have higher levels of
C-reactive protein
homocysteine
LDL cholesterol
Total cholesterol

Are any of those a problem for you?

I agree that symptoms and not levels are important, though I can see some of the symptoms are a bit of a judgement call, such as cold feet, which can also be poor circulation. If you exercise a lot, your heart rate should be lower than 70, as low as 50.

Personally I don't see a problem of trying something like NDT (or other thyroid meds) to see if you feel better, your symptoms go away and you have more energy. It it works, go for it.

If I haven't have tried testosterone, I wouldn't have known how much of a difference it made. When my testosterone levels first declined around age 42, I strongly felt something was wrong. But after 15 years, it felt normal. After experiencing the difference TRT makes, I will never go back and no one could convince me that low T is acceptable.

 

[Gianluca]

From your link, hypo typically have higher levels of
C-reactive protein
homocysteine
LDL cholesterol
Total cholesterol

Are any of those a problem for you?

I agree that symptoms and not levels are important, though I can see some of the symptoms are a bit of a judgement call, such as cold feet, which can also be poor circulation. If you exercise a lot, your heart rate should be lower than 70, as low as 50.

Personally I don't see a problem of trying something like NDT (or other thyroid meds) to see if you feel better, your symptoms go away and you have more energy. It it works, go for it.

If I haven't have tried testosterone, I wouldn't have known how much of a difference it made. When my testosterone levels first declined around age 42, I strongly felt something was wrong. But after 15 years, it felt normal. After experiencing the difference TRT makes, I will never go back and no one could convince me that low T is acceptable.

yes, throughout TRT my LDL worsen, which we know TRT generally increase LDL and lower HDL but after a year and half, maybe 2, on TRT I saw again LDL going up just a little and something new, Triglycerides raising, another sign of Thyroid malfunction,

I also did a DEXA scan, I'm at 17% body fat and it looks like majority of fat is Visceral and I do feel often my Liver tight, and nothing really changed much on my diet and supplementation, all of this troubles has been created as a result of hormones imbalances, forgot to mention I'm pretty skinny man.

By the way I just got my Labs back after a month on NP 60MG, so my T3 is at 4.4 and reverse T3 17.1, and not sure if it is good or not about RT3, but at this point I'm still symptomatic for the most, I just scheduled a follow up with Dr, Crisler, let's see what's the deal is here


CRP and Homocesteyne checked over a year a go and were fine, not sure now

 

[Powerdome]

My TSH is around 8 when measured yesterday. My Free T4 was in normal range as was my T3. My endo said its nothing to worry about. He seemd to think my TRT had a small influence on it. My TT was 900 while my FT was 16...E2 was 84...Probably a lot of people are subhypo but just don't have overt symptoms

 

[Gman86]

My TSH is around 8 when measured yesterday. My Free T4 was in normal range as was my T3. My endo said its nothing to worry about. He seemd to think my TRT had a small influence on it. My TT was 900 while my FT was 16...E2 was 84...Probably a lot of people are subhypo but just don't have overt symptoms

Jesus Christ. I would check to see if that endo actually has a medical degree. No joke. But in all honesty, you’re extremely hypothyroid. Unless it was a lab error. But definitely get that treated if you’re not already.

And I have to agree. After relentlessly researching the thyroid the past 3 months, I would bet money on there being a lot more people walking around with either subhypothyroidism, or full blown hypothyroidism, than we think.

 

[Vince]

My TSH is around 8 when measured yesterday. My Free T4 was in normal range as was my T3. My endo said its nothing to worry about. He seemd to think my TRT had a small influence on it. My TT was 900 while my FT was 16...E2 was 84...Probably a lot of people are subhypo but just don't have overt symptoms

Can you post your complete thyroid panel. TSH, free T4, free T3, reverse T3 and both antibodies.