Does HCG raise estradiol more/faster than straight testosterone cypionate?

[Cataceous]

Considering progesterone... but lab Corp lowered their reference range to near ZERO... so hard to know what results mean anymore! ...

They did that for a while, but now the range is 0.0-0.5 ng/dL.
004317: Progesterone | LabCorp
Kind of coarse resolution, but I did get sensible dose-response behavior while using it. Some of my lab results here, all sampled about 10 hours post-treatment.

 

[TucsonJJ]

Anastrozole is quite strong, so for men one milligram a week is considered a medium-to-large dose. Taking a quarter of that amount lowers my estradiol by ~20 pg/mL. Others may be less sensitive.

There's no magic number for estradiol that's going to work for everyone. Each guy needs to find what works for him, though in general it's good not to stray too far from normals. Healthy young guys have estradiol that—on average—peaks out at around 30 pg/mL. I did go with estradiol in the 50s for a couple years, but lately have used anastrozole to push the average down to around 30.

HCG is is a mixed bag for me, helping with libido and testicular volume but pushing estradiol high enough to require management.

I think progesterone is often overlooked, and guys should test their levels and possibly take action when low. I supplement and see benefits in mood and sleep.

I am now into 3rd week, 130mg Test Cip Sub-Q injections 2X week... might be too high for a start dose (Doc said do 100mg/week, I thinght a little extra would be good)... having some NASTY side effects from the anastrozole... enough to either reduce it, stop it, or stop TRT all together... from what I read, this stuff is dangerous! .25/week may be doable... Some guy here said that zinc and Cialis lower estradiol enough... have you herd that? I'd hate to stop TRT, my 5.2 Free T is way too low! Thx!

 

[Westin]

I am now into 3rd week, 130mg Test Cip Sub-Q injections 2X week... might be too high for a start dose (Doc said do 100mg/week, I thinght a little extra would be good)... having some NASTY side effects from the anastrozole... enough to either reduce it, stop it, or stop TRT all together... from what I read, this stuff is dangerous! .25/week may be doable... Some guy here said that zinc and Cialis lower estradiol enough... have you herd that? I'd hate to stop TRT, my 5.2 Free T is way too low! Thx!

Careful overshooting the prescribed amount as in the USA pharmacy's keep track of your dose and they may not refill sooner. I know CVS does in AZ. I'm dealing with it now.

 

[TucsonJJ]

Originally I used a topical formulation in oil, but now I include it in injections.

I think I'll try 5mg daily Cialis generic and 30mg daily zinc instead of Anastrazole... thoughts?

Careful overshooting the prescribed amount as in the USA pharmacy's keep track of your dose and they may not refill sooner. I know CVS does in AZ. I'm dealing with it now.

Will do, thx... I m stopping the whole show... a new endocrinologist turned out to be a total jerk... so will look for new DOc to re-start.

 

[Cataceous]

I think I'll try 5mg daily Cialis generic and 30mg daily zinc instead of Anastrazole... thoughts?

Might have some effect, but relatively small compared to what anastrozole can do.

 

[TucsonJJ]

Might have some effect, but relatively small compared to what anastrozole can do.

Bummer... because I won't take anymore anastrozole... it really wipes me out. I will look for another Doc... a far better one than the jerks I have been seeing for TRT... just saw an endocrinologist today... another total loser... jeeze...

 

[Gman86]

Bummer... because I won't take anymore anastrozole... it really wipes me out. I will look for another Doc... a far better one than the jerks I have been seeing for TRT... just saw an endocrinologist today... another total loser... jeeze...

Just switch to Defy. Had a consult 2 days ago and the guy was amazing. He understood that I don’t ever want to take an ai ever again. He was very knowledgeable on how to use other compounds, in low doses, to inhibit E2, free up testosterone, improve the androgen to estrogen ratio, thus allowing to not ever have to use an ai again, but still being able to inhibit high E2 side effects. Those compounds being nandrolone, oxandrolone and stanazolol. All legal to prescribe in the U.S. Highly recommend DefyMedical

He himself used to be on just testosterone alone, but his E2 was in the 60’s, which for him was apparently too high. He lowered his test dose, added in about 100mg of nandrolone, and now he said his E2 is in the 30’s, and he feels much better in all categories. No ai. I believe he also takes 600iu’s of HCG/ week.

 

[antelopers]

Just switch to Defy. Had a consult 2 days ago and the guy was amazing. He understood that I don’t ever want to take an ai ever again. He was very knowledgeable on how to use other compounds, in low doses, to inhibit E2, free up testosterone, improve the androgen to estrogen ratio, thus allowing to not ever have to use an ai again, but still being able to inhibit high E2 side effects. Those compounds being nandrolone, oxandrolone and stanazolol. All legal to prescribe in the U.S. Highly recommend DefyMedical

He himself used to be on just testosterone alone, but his E2 was in the 60’s, which for him was apparently too high. He lowered his test dose, added in about 100mg of nandrolone, and now he said his E2 is in the 30’s, and he feels much better in all categories. No ai. I believe he also takes 600iu’s of HCG/ week.

Defy offered you things like oxandrolone to counteract estrogen?

 

[Gman86]

Defy offered you things like oxandrolone to counteract estrogen?

Well kind of. We mainly went over using nandrolone to improve my androgen to estrogen ratio. He doesn’t like to prescribe all of those compounds at the same time. So you kind of have to go over the benefits of each one and decide together which option would be best for your situation/ goals, and I’m sure also depending on what your blood work looks like, specifically lipids. Like I said, in my consult we mainly went over nandrolone, but I’ve talked to a few other guys, that had a consult with the same PA, and he went over other options with them, such as oxandrolone and stanazolol, to inhibit E2, lower SHBG, free up testosterone, and consequently eliminating the need for an ai, hopefully. I was more interested in nandrolone, due to chronic shoulder issues and continuous wrist problems. So I preferred using nandrolone for the joint benefits.

 

[antelopers]

Well kind of. We mainly went over using nandrolone to improve my androgen to estrogen ratio. He doesn’t like to prescribe all of those compounds at the same time. So you kind of have to go over the benefits of each one and decide together which option would be best for your situation/ goals, and I’m sure also depending on what your blood work looks like, specifically lipids. Like I said, in my consult we mainly went over nandrolone, but I’ve talked to a few other guys, that had a consult with the same PA, and he went over other options with them, such as oxandrolone and stanazolol.

Interesting stuff. I'm conflicted on adding other things to my trt protocol. One one hand, in my head I'm like "testosterone is the only thing native to the body, trt should just be test" and then on the other hand I can rationalize "add some HCG or ai or deca or masteron optimize yourself who cares if it's natural". It's cool they're open minded about it. I am chasing getting dialed in still. I get overwhelmed when I add more stuff sometimes. I need to get out of my own head probably.

 

[Gman86]

Interesting stuff. I'm conflicted on adding other things to my trt protocol. One one hand, in my head I'm like "testosterone is the only thing native to the body, trt should just be test" and then on the other hand I can rationalize "add some HCG or ai or deca or masteron optimize yourself who cares if it's natural". It's cool they're open minded about it. I am chasing getting dialed in still. I get overwhelmed when I add more stuff sometimes. I need to get out of my own head probably.

Ya it’s all a matter of preference. And I know exactly what you’re saying about the bioidentical stuff. Was just having a convo about this last night with a guy. We were trying to figure out if nandrolone was bioidentical, due to the body producing small amounts of 19-nortestosterone. I’m still not sure if it is or not. I think it might not be, but it’s close enough to where I feel comfortable using it. But what about thyroid replacement. There’s plenty of guys using synthetic T4 and synthetic T3, with good results. And nobody worries about whether it’s bioidentical or not. But then again, I’ve heard a guy say that even tho T4 and T3 are made in a lab, they still use the bioidentical molecules. So I’m still a little confused on what’s bioidentical and what’s not lol. Very curious, and very eager to figure it all out though.

But my personal stance is that we have some pretty awesome compounds at our disposal, that I feel are pretty safe, when used properly, if not actually health/ longevity promoting. If I were you, and were interested in adding another compound to your HRT, I would obviously just add one compound at a time. You’re always going to get varying opinions on whether it’s “right” to use anything but testosterone or not, but you just have to figure out what’s best for you, not what’s best for everyone else. I mean, everyone’s fine with adding in ai’s and HCG. Not sure about HCG, but obviously ai’s aren’t bioidentical. Neither is clomid. But these are just things that people are used to seeing, and were around when they learned about HRT. Eventually other compounds are going to be just as commonplace as HCG, ai’s, Clomid, etc. You just have to be patient, and not let other people get to you in the meantime. Just do your research, and try to make the best decisions you can in regards to your specific situation/ goals.

 

[antelopers]

Ya it’s all a matter of preference. And I know exactly what you’re saying about the bioidentical stuff. Was just having a convo about this last night with a guy. We were trying to figure out if nandrolone was bioidentical, due to the body producing small amounts of 19-nortestosterone. I’m still not sure if it is or not. I think it might not be, but it’s close enough to where I feel comfortable using it. But what about thyroid replacement. There’s plenty of guys using synthetic T4 and synthetic T3, with good results. And nobody worries about whether it’s bioidentical or not. But then again, I’ve heard a guy say that even tho T4 and T3 are made in a lab, they still use the bioidentical molecules. So I’m still a little confused on what’s bioidentical and what’s not lol. Very curious, and very eager to figure it all out though.

But my personal stance is that we have some pretty awesome compounds at our disposal, that I feel are pretty safe, when used properly, if not actually health/ longevity promoting. If I were you, and were interested in adding another compound to your HRT, I would obviously just add one compound at a time. You’re always going to get varying opinions on whether it’s “right” to use anything but testosterone or not, but you just have to figure out what’s best for you, not what’s best for everyone else. I mean, everyone’s fine with adding in ai’s and HCG. Not sure about HCG, but obviously ai’s aren’t bioidentical. Neither is clomid. But these are just things that people are used to seeing, and were around when they learned about HRT. Eventually other compounds are going to be just as commonplace as HCG, ai’s, Clomid, etc. You just have to be patient, and not let other people get to you in the meantime. Just do your research, and try to make the best decisions you can in regards to your specific situation/ goals.

Good post and you're definitely right. I talk to defy and they're like yeah most of our patients are optimized when they use test HCG ai and get their total t to upper end. I spent the last few days watching videos from that guy the anabolic doc on muscular development. Thomas O'Connor I think, anyway he's saying deca bad, ai bad, HCG only for fertility, almost all guys can be optimised on 100mg total per week and nothing else. So I start second guessing myself.

 

[Gman86]

Good post and you're definitely right. I talk to defy and they're like yeah most of our patients are optimized when they use test HCG ai and get their total t to upper end. I spent the last few days watching videos from that guy the anabolic doc on muscular development. Thomas O'Connor I think, anyway he's saying deca bad, ai bad, HCG only for fertility, almost all guys can be optimised on 100mg total per week and nothing else. So I start second guessing myself.

Ya I’m subscribed to him as well, and watch most of his videos. Obv don’t agree with everything he says. Did he really say that deca is bad? I don’t remember him ever saying that.

There’s very few absolutes in HRT, but one thing I can guarantee, is that everyone will not be optimized on 100mg/ week. We are all just too unique for that to even remotely be the case. And I also personally don’t believe in ai’s. I understand why they’re used, and I respect guys’ who use them, and I think for some, they’re still needed (guys that don’t have access to/ don’t feel comfortable using other compounds) but I personally just don’t think they’re a good addition to HRT overall. Again, my personally view. By no means makes it the right view.

 

[antelopers]

Ya I’m subscribed to him as well, and watch most of his videos. Obv don’t agree with everything he says. Did he really say that deca is bad? I don’t remember him ever saying that.

There’s very few absolutes in HRT, but one thing I can guarantee, is that everyone will not be optimized on 100mg/ week. We are all just too unique for that to even remotely be the case. And I also personally don’t believe in ai’s. I understand why they’re used, and I respect guys’ who use them, and I think for some, they’re still needed (guys that don’t have access to/ don’t feel comfortable using other compounds) but I personally just don’t think they’re a good addition to HRT overall. Again, my personally view. By no means makes it the right view.

Yeah I just watched one yesterday where he claimed that even 100mg a week the effects on joints were bullshit and it would lead to a heart attack lol. It was on the muscular development channel not on his personal YouTube.

I don't like the idea of an AI either but my recent experience with one or two small doses made me feel better in all areas except sensitivity for sex. But dialing in with an AI seems like a monumental task.

 

[Gman86]

Yeah I just watched one yesterday where he claimed that even 100mg a week the effects on joints were bullshit and it would lead to a heart attack lol. It was on the muscular development channel not on his personal YouTube.

I don't like the idea of an AI either but my recent experience with one or two small doses made me feel better in all areas except sensitivity for sex. But dialing in with an AI seems like a monumental task.

Ya I’m subscribed to that channel as well. I’ll check the vid out. See, this is exactly what I mean. Ai’s do have a place, for some people. Do I think it’s the ideal way to minimize high E2 symptoms, no. But do I understand why some men use ai’s, absolutely.

 

[Gman86]

@antelopers do you mind linking the video you were talking about where the anabolic doc says deca is bad. The last video I see that he did was 5 days ago. Not sure if it’s the same one ur referring to

 

[antelopers]

@antelopers do you mind linking the video you were talking about where the anabolic doc says deca is bad. The last video I see that he did was 5 days ago. Not sure if it’s the same one ur referring to

It's from a while back in the beginning of this HCG video

 

[Gman86]

It's from a while back in the beginning of this HCG video

Thanks, I’ll watch it at some point today. It’s from 5 months ago. I wonder if he’s changed his views since then.

 

[antelopers]

Thanks, I’ll watch it at some point today. It’s from 5 months ago. I wonder if he’s changed his views since then.

Let me know what you think. I'm fairly sure I remembered the details correctly of his opinion

 

[Fortunate]

The serum half-life of testosterone released from a testosterone ester has little bearing on this question. The time to peak serum concentration is largely governed by the half-life of pure testosterone in serum, which is somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-100 minutes, best guess around 30 minutes. This leads to peak testosterone in the neighborhood of 2-6 hours post-injection. Serum estradiol has a half-life that's maybe an hour, which delays its peak by maybe a couple hours from the testosterone peak.

So with testosterone we can at least make some estimates about when estradiol will rise. But do we know what the situation is with hCG over these shorter periods? Even assuming rapid post-injection absorption, how long does it take to permeate the testicles? And after that, how long does it take to start stimulating the aromatization in Leydig cells? Must hCG raise intratesticular testosterone levels before efficient aromatization occurs, leading to a substantial delay? Without these answers I don't think it's possible to say whether hCG raises estradiol faster than testosterone esters.

@Cataceous, this is really useful. I am currently tying to find actual data on E2 levels over the course of hours after a testosterone injection. I think your estimates here are good. Since posting this, have you seen any data on this?

@Nelson Vergel, your book is priceless. I scanned over the estradiol section and see a ton of good information, but don't see anything that answers how quickly testosterone aromatizes in terms of hours after injection.

I have been doing a low dose daily injection, and lately, around 10-12 hours after injecting, I start getting really anxious and jittery. My first instinct is to assume I am supraphysiologic, but my doses are modest compared to what many are doing. Labs from last week show Total T (LCMSMS) is 651 and Free 122.5 pg/ml (46-224). Estrogen is 45 pg/ml. So, I don't think the bad-feeling anxiety is from T, although this was technically a trough (first thing in the morning, prior to injection), so peaks are higher. My lead suspects are E2 or DHT. I suspect E2. Unfortunately, I did not get an ultrasensitive test. But, this is driving me nuts, so I may break down and take a small dose of anastrazole to see if that makes a difference.

Does 10-12 hours seem like a reasonable estimate for peak E2 levels? Or, it may be dropping levels that I am feeling - a common migraine trigger in women.