Crashed Estradiol - How Long to Recover?

[get2dichoppa]

Hi All,
New to these boards, but have been lurking for a while picking up some great information, everyone seems very knowledgeable. Started TRT back in October 2016, I have yet to get dialed in, although I have found the elusive sweet spot a couple of times, so I know how important it is to get dialed in. Current blood results were as follows:

Protocol = 100mg T Cyp 2x per week (200mg Total)
.5mg Arimidex 2x per week (1mg Total)
1 ZMA pill per night

Results (at trough, before injection) = TT 955 (348-1197)
FT 29.3 (9.3-26.5)
E2 Sensitive 10 (8-35)

My symptoms are dead ****, literally can't even get hard to masturbate, cialis does help this. Dry skin/lips (was diagnosed with eczema & angular chelitis but starting to think it is because of messing with my hormones instead of allergic reaction/infection). Clicking knees and back, not exaggerating my knees click with every step, luckily no pain but still loud and annoying. Hot flashes and night sweats.

My energy levels and strength gains have been very good though. Needless to say I was on both too much T and too much AI. My new protocol is 30mg T injected every other day (~105mg per week, I use both Sub Q and IM, rotate) and I have completely dropped the AI.

My question is, how long till my E2 normalizes (can I test after 4 weeks of this new protocol?) and has anyone else corrected insane itching/dry lips by just normalizing E2? Or do I really have eczema & angular chelitis.

Look forward to contributing to these forums and updating you all on my status going forward.

 

[Will Brink]

Usual Q: why were you on the AI in the first place?

 

[CoastWatcher]

Welcome to Excelmale. Based on your lab results you have, certainly crashed your estradiol. Will poses an excellent question - what was the AI prescribed for? As far as testing, I would give it a full six weeks before getting labs. E always follows T, but it may take a while. Be patient.

 

[get2dichoppa]

Prior Blood test came back with slightly high E2 and mid range T. That was on 120mg a week and .5mg AI

Usual Q: why were you on the AI in the first place?

 

[get2dichoppa]

Was also not very educated on TRT in the beginning, just going off of docs recommendations. I have been reading alot of Nelson's post about how AI's are overprescribed and had a good convo about it with my doc, thats why we dramatically reduced the dose and dropped the AI. Now I am going to take things very slow. Get bloodwork on my current 30mg EOD protocol then go from there based off results/symptoms. My low E2 experience has been miserable and has still not alleviated (been on new 30mg EOD protocol for 3.5 weeks)

 

[Will Brink]

Prior Blood test came back with slightly high E2 and mid range T. That was on 120mg a week and .5mg AI

"slightly high E2" is not a number we can comment on. Posting numbers is always best, but until those on TRT and or the docs that treat them get over their fear of E2 and knee jerk treat it, this story repeats itself. Almost as bad as the docs that don't test E2 at all, and refuse to treat it. Reversal of suppressed E2 varies for people, but 6-8 weeks seems fairly typical for it to normalize.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Was also not very educated on TRT in the beginning, just going off of docs recommendations. I have been reading alot of Nelson's post about how AI's are overprescribed and had a good convo about it with my doc, thats why we dramatically reduced the dose and dropped the AI. Now I am going to take things very slow. Get bloodwork on my current 30mg EOD protocol then go from there based off results/symptoms. My low E2 experience has been miserable and has still not alleviated (been on new 30mg EOD protocol for 3.5 weeks)

As Will and I both noted, give it at least six weeks. Patience...not easy, but you'll climb out of the hole you are in.

 

[get2dichoppa]

Slightly high was a 32 (<=29, this was Quests range for sensitive). But definitely not high enough to warrant a dose increase and more AI.

Thanks for both of yours input, I will give it 6 weeks and then re-test, hopefully have a better update next time.

 

[Will Brink]

Slightly high was a 32 (<=29, this was Quests range for sensitive). But definitely not high enough to warrant a dose increase and more AI.

Thanks for both of yours input, I will give it 6 weeks and then re-test, hopefully have a better update next time.

What's your BMI and or BF%? If higher than it should be, that's one of the most consistent ways to naturally lower E2 once T dose adjusted. Life style management is an essential component to getting the most from TRT/HRT and often overlooked by docs, and they know people don't wanna hear that and just want their magic pills and shots. Not directed at you, just a general statement of reality.

The % of men on TRT/HRT that don't even exercise is mind boggling and a primary reason they don't get from TRT/HRT what they wanted.

 

[get2dichoppa]

My BMI is 26, which is slightly over range although I have some lean muscle on my body, still trying to cut this summer. I train heavy and hard at least 5 times a week, sometimes more. My BF% should not make me a high aromatizer but my symptoms prior to TRT more align with high estrogen (I insisted I be tested for Klinefelters, negative), i think thats why my doc started on the AI right off the bat. Diet is very clean so im hoping a dialed in TRT protocol will give me the results I am looking for

What's your BMI and or BF%? If higher than it should be, that's one of the most consistent ways to naturally lower E2 once T dose adjusted. Life style management is an essential component to getting the most from TRT/HRT and often overlooked by docs, and they know people don't wanna hear that and just want their magic pills and shots. Not directed at you, just a general statement of reality.

The % of men on TRT/HRT that don't even exercise is mind boggling and a primary reason they don't get from TRT/HRT what they wanted.

 

[get2dichoppa]

Just an update for everyone regarding my quest to raise E2. Seems I have not only raised it, but way overshot the desired range. The below update is after only 4 weeks of my new protocol, still having low E2 symptoms though:

1st Protocol:

100mg Test Cyp 2x per week (200mg Total)
.5mg AI 2x per week (1mg Total)

Labs on First Protocol (trough test):

TT = 955 (348 - 1197)
FT = 29.3 (9.3-26.5)
E2 Sensitive = 10 (8-35)

Clearly I crashed my E2. Symptoms were ED, anxiety, clicking joints, dry skin, insomnia. Also had quite a bit of hair shedding. Im a low SHBG guy so I thought more frequent injections would help, and I dropped the AI completely.

2nd Protocol:
30mg T Cyp EOD (~105mg per week total) mixed btw SubQ & IM
No AI

After 4 weeks on this protocol (trough test):

TT = 835 (348-1197)
FT = 33.82 (5-21)
E2 Sensitive = 60.3 (8-35)
HCT = 48.5

The weird thing is my symptoms are a mix of low/high E2. ED, dry skin, clicking joints, insomnia, night sweats, sweating alot during workouts, bloat. I definitely feel better with high E2 than low E2, although thats not saying much.
What do you recommend for guys with super low SHBG? Im thinking of cutting my 30mg EOD down to 20mg EOD and adding in some DIM to help my liver clear out the estrogen. Any thoughts or help, thanks guys.

EDIT: Male 6'3 210lbs (BMI = 25)

 

[Vince]

My only thoughts are, switch to daily injections of testosterone and stay off the AI.

 

[get2dichoppa]

subscribing to this thread.

Note to mods. Forum mod tool broken when sellecting sub I get this message.
@Get2dichoppa, I too have had an E2 of over 60 its not very fun. I would cry over episodes of the Big Bang Theory TV show, haha.
I did not have the skin or joint issues you reported. I look forward to reading about your progress thanks for posting the update.

Haha I also have been getting slightly emotional. The final scene in Guardians of the Galaxy had me choked up like a little girl. Not sure if the joint/skin issues are separate but I will keep everyone up to date, stay tuned.

 

[get2dichoppa]

My only thoughts are, switch to daily injections of testosterone and stay off the AI.

Thanks for the suggestion Vince. Im considering everything at this point and will update everyone where I land when I make my decision. I would like to not re-introduce drugs to my protocol at this and since I have such a high Free T I feel I have some room to bring that down.

 

[FeelingLost]

Thanks for the suggestion Vince. Im considering everything at this point and will update everyone where I land when I make my decision. I would like to not re-introduce drugs to my protocol at this and since I have such a high Free T I feel I have some room to bring that down.

While you are evaluating your protocal something my TRT doc missed but my Therapist caught when she was helping me thru my E2 overdose is take a long look at all of your suppliments. I was taking Pregnenolone and DHEA both increase E2 before I started TRT. The Preg was to support memory and hormonal balance and the DHEA promoted optimal hormone lvls. (((BIG MISTAKE))) when I went on TRT that should have been caught. All my doc's have a list of everything I put into my mouth.

Anyway something to consider.
Oh, disclaimer: I am not a doc hell I am barely an informed TRT patient.

note: while proof reading this post why do I get the feeling my E2 is a bit high right now, HAHA! Finding the right protocal reminds me of a cat chasing a laser pointer. Sometimes he actually thinks he caught it.

 

[get2dichoppa]

While you are evaluating your protocal something my TRT doc missed but my Therapist caught when she was helping me thru my E2 overdose is take a long look at all of your suppliments. I was taking Pregnenolone and DHEA both increase E2 before I started TRT. The Preg was to support memory and hormonal balance and the DHEA promoted optimal hormone lvls. (((BIG MISTAKE))) when I went on TRT that should have been caught. All my doc's have a list of everything I put into my mouth.

Anyway something to consider.
Oh, disclaimer: I am not a doc hell I am barely an informed TRT patient.

note: while proof reading this post why do I get the feeling my E2 is a bit high right now, HAHA! Finding the right protocal reminds me of a cat chasing a laser pointer. Sometimes he actually thinks he caught it.

Yea outside of a multi vitamin, fish oil, and test cyp I am not taking anything else. I have decided I dont want to take anymore AI so I am going to lower my dose, and start a small supplement of DIM. I will update everyone in one month!

 

[meelord]

Great useful post!

 

[get2dichoppa]

Great useful post!

Glad it has been useful for you.

Just a quick update for everyone, even after lowering my dose I still feel pretty shitty. My eczema (dry skin) is full blown and I have severe clicking joints. Again these symptoms line up with low E2, but my E2 is still high. I have talked to my doctor and we believe there maybe an allergic reaction to the testosterone, that my immune system is attacking it. I have decided for now to come off of TRT. My dose has been reduced to 50mg a week and I have added HCG 250iu 3x/week. I will stay with this for three weeks then probably switch over to Clomid/Nolvadex to finish my PCT.

Again I will keep everyone up to date. I wish my high E2 symptoms were in line with everyone else but nothing I reads points to high E2 causing dry irritated skin and clicking joints. Not to mention the ED, honestly I felt much better off TRT, and hope it resolves my eczema

 

[Tom Larabee]

Have you looked to see if you are allergic to the oil your Testosterone is in? Could be an issue causing you to not be getting any benefit if you are allergic to it and your body is fighting off the oil

 

[get2dichoppa]

Have you looked to see if you are allergic to the oil your Testosterone is in? Could be an issue causing you to not be getting any benefit if you are allergic to it and your body is fighting off the oil

I actually did have allergy testing done, and cottonseed came up negative. I also started itching before I injected (was on a Clomid and Anastrozole and DIM coumponded pill before starting TRT). After about a month and a half on that ****tail I started itching. After starting injections my skin erupted into full blown eczema, rash/red/irritated/dry flaky skin. I want to get off everything and see if my body heals, but im pretty sure tossing my hormones around has affected my skin

Again if i just had oily skin/bloat/sensitive nips i would know my E2 is high, but I have low E2 symptoms with high E2 bloods, makes getting dialed in impossible