Crashed E2

[Greg Kevorkian]

I know this is a difficult question but after you clear the Anastrozole from your system roughly 8 day, how long can it take for the T to aromatize normally and get you E2 back up ? I thinking right after the next shot of T ?

Thanks

 

[DS3]

I know this is a difficult question but after you clear the Anastrozole from your system roughly 8 day, how long can it take for the T to aromatize normally and get you E2 back up ? I thinking right after the next shot of T ?

Thanks

Once I have crashed my E2 by taking too much Anastrozole it typically takes 2+ weeks for me to normalize. I’m very careful with adex these days. Not something to mess around with.

 

[Vince]

Crashed estrogen recovery? - Excel Male TRT Forum

Hey. How's it going? I crashed my estrogen and hormonal system is very complex like you know. It effects other hormones, not estrogen only. So my question is "what is the worst scenerio if someone crashed estrogen"? It can never come back? or other hormones? I'm so scared...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Jackie Treehorn]

I know this is a difficult question but after you clear the Anastrozole from your system roughly 8 day, how long can it take for the T to aromatize normally and get you E2 back up ? I thinking right after the next shot of T ?

Thanks

Be patient and give it time to recover. DS3 gave you some good advice. Anastrozole is some nasty stuff, and some folks are super sensitive to it (including me). It's always better to err on the light side, and increase dosage later, if required. I only take 0.1mg twice a week to keep my E2 in check.

 

[Stylo]

Drink a couple of hoppy beers before bedtime, and you will bounce back faster. Id drop the AI. People will argue it, but it does more harm than good. Your body is better at balancing it out. Higher T will have higher E. Nothing to be afraid of.

 

[DS3]

Drink a couple of hoppy beers before bedtime, and you will bounce back faster. Id drop the AI. People will argue it, but it does more harm than good. Your body is better at balancing it out. Higher T will have higher E. Nothing to be afraid of.

Nothing to be afraid of...unless you become symptomatic with high estrogen. Can’t agree with you on the suggestion to drink beers to increase estrogen. Beers contain gluten which in a majority of individuals has shown to increase gut permeability and allow toxins such as lipopolysaccharide to exit the gut and cause systemic inflammation. Best practice would be to wait this one out for his estrogen to come back and/or increase his dosage to speed the process.

I agree with you on the AI. Use very sparingly. I’ve never been able to fully cease my use of it as I get migraines/head fog when my E2 gets too high. However, I have reduced my intake to 0.125 mg 1x per week.

Side note: Because the brain is comprised primarily of fat, aromatization and estrogenic issues can still occur no matter how lean you are as estrogen tends to be stored in fat, which the brain provides the perfect fatty conditions for. Symptoms such as headache, sinus pressure, head fog, and slowed memory can result.

 

[Misery]

Side note: Because the brain is comprised primarily of fat, aromatization and estrogenic issues can still occur no matter how lean you are as estrogen tends to be stored in fat, which the brain provides the perfect fatty conditions for. Symptoms such as headache, sinus pressure, head fog, and slowed memory can result.

Where could I read more on this?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

one of the most popular topics on ExcelMale.com

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[DS3]

@Misery

Article on estrogen's effects on the brain (positive, not taking into consideration over-aromatization that can occur during TRT): Brain Aromatization: Classical Roles and New Perspectives

Estrogen's Effect On PFC (menopausal women): Estrogen and the Prefrontal Cortex: Towards A New Understanding of Estrogen’s Effects on Executive Functions in the Menopause Transition

Estrogen's Effect On PFC (menopausal women): Prefrontal cortex as the site of estrogen's effect on cognition | Request PDF

So as you gaze through these last two studies, you gain an understanding of how important estrogen is in cognitive function...too little and you lose optimal function in the prefrontal cortex and the hippocampus (among other neuroanatomical structures).

I do not have studies providing evidence of what the cognitive ramifications are in men on TRT who experience over-aromatization. However, the deleteries effects of supraphysiological levels of testosterone are known.

Neurotoxic Impact of Anabolic Steroids on Primary Neuronal Structure Toxic Impact of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids in Primary Rat Cortical Cell Cultures

From the last study, and others that support its results, it's fairly clear to see that supraphysiological dosages of testosterone, nandrolone, stanozolol, and trenbolone are of high concern as mitochondrial activity in primary neuronal structures were negatively impacted at relatively low supraphysiological concentrations (with nandrolone having the most significant impact at the lowest dosage, and stanozolol actually inducing cellular death).

The fact that there are no direct studies demonstrating effects on cognition as a result of over-aromatization is concerning. However, with the myriad studies conducted regarding both the importance of estrogen on cognitive function, as well as the neurotoxic impact of supraphysiological concentrations of testosterone and synthetic derivatives, it is fairly easy to extrapolate and say, "if too much testosterone results in reduced cognitive function, it's likely safe to say that too much estrogen can cause the same deleteries effects."

As I have been figuring out my 'optimal' levels in TRT over the past decade, I can say that my cognitive performance raises fairly significantly as my estrogen rises. But, after a 'tipping point' the rise in cognitive performance is met with migraine, brain fog, decreased memory and decreased cognitive horsepower. After I ingest my small weekly dosage of anastrozle (and leave all other hormones/medications the same) the brain fog lifts, migraine disappears, memory increases, and cognitive horsepower resumes.

 

[swoops36]

As I have been figuring out my 'optimal' levels in TRT over the past decade, I can say that my cognitive performance raises fairly significantly as my estrogen rises. But, after a 'tipping point' the rise in cognitive performance is met with migraine, brain fog, decreased memory and decreased cognitive horsepower. After I ingest my small weekly dosage of anastrozle (and leave all other hormones/medications the same) the brain fog lifts, migraine disappears, memory increases, and cognitive horsepower resumes.

this has been my experience as well. My anxiety gets out of control, and medication I take that calms me down has the opposite effect and just makes it worse. If I lower my T dose, I feel better. Or, If I take an AI, I feel better. That leads me to believe it’s e2 related

 

[Stylo]

well boys, keep thinking what you want, and keep immersing yourself in studies. Next year a new study will show that the old study was wrong. Keep thinking its your E and keep crashing it. Too smart for your own good is a thing.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I think if anyone feels good by taking anastrozole based on "symptoms" without testing their E2, then more power to them. At the end of the day, that is all that matters.

I have posted numerous studies that show that water retention, nipple sensitivity, ED, low libido and higher fat are not tied to high E2 and that high E2 is a relative term since the higher the T, the higher the E2. In fact, I truly believe that I will be proven right in a few years when we start referring to T/E2 ratios instead of absolute E2 values.

If someone reads those studies and still feels anastrozole is good for them, then that is actually a good decision for them. Only time will tell if we are around for 20 more years and some of us end up with more brittle bones, more heart attacks, and less cognitive function than others.

Here is a statement about what I am saying:

Before You Post About Estradiol or Anastrozole- READ THIS FIRST - Excel Male TRT Forum

Estradiol (E2) frightens a lot of men with low T or on TRT. It’s perceived - all too often - as an almost wicked hormone, lurking, waiting to undermine a patient’s TRT protocol. Guys fear it will rob them of their erections and sex drive and cause them to grow breasts. Estradiol is a necessary...

www.excelmale.com

 

[DS3]

I think if anyone feels good by taking anastrozole based on "symptoms" without testing their E2, then more power to them. At the end of the day, that is all that matters.

I have posted numerous studies that show that water retention, nipple sensitivity, ED, low libido and higher fat are not tied to high E2 and that high E2 is a relative term since the higher the T, the higher the E2. In fact, I truly believe that I will be proven right in a few years when we start referring to T/E2 ratios instead of absolute E2 values.

If someone reads those studies and still feels anastrozole is good for them, then that is actually a good decision for them. Only time will tell if we are around for 20 more years and some of us end up with more brittle bones, more heart attacks, and less cognitive function than others.

Here is a statement about what I am saying:

Before You Post About Estradiol or Anastrozole- READ THIS FIRST - Excel Male TRT Forum

Estradiol (E2) frightens a lot of men with low T or on TRT. It’s perceived - all too often - as an almost wicked hormone, lurking, waiting to undermine a patient’s TRT protocol. Guys fear it will rob them of their erections and sex drive and cause them to grow breasts. Estradiol is a necessary...

www.excelmale.com

My estrogenic symptoms are all cognitive in nature, and I follow my bloodwork to support the notion that my symptoms are related to increasing levels of estradiol. I keep my E2 in the range of 50-70 pg/dL, hardly a 'crashed number'. And yes, I take 0.125 mg anastrozole 1x per week to keep it in that range, otherwise, the aforementioned brain fog, memory deficit, and loss of cognitive horsepower are presented; a theme that I have followed and tracked within myself for 5 years.

For me, it takes microdosing, DIM/calcium d-glucarate, and the small dosage of weekly anastrozole to maintain cognitive horsepower, sharp memory, and keep the head fog away. Dr. Rob Kominiarek, also a big proponent of not taking AIs, has discussed his evidence-based research from his patients showing that while taking 1 mg 3x weekly, his patients showed signs of osteoporosis in the results of their DEXA scans. As he took them off or reduced their AI dosage, the osteoporosis slowly reversed. Dr. Kominiarek noted that small dosages such as 0.125 mg per week did not appear to contribute to osteoporosis in his patients as he continued to track their reversal of osteoporosis.

The evidence that high and/or frequent dosing of anastrozole contributes to osteoporosis, decreased endothelial tissue health, and cognitive decline is not in question. The evidence is there.

What is in question and continually argued is should TRT patients who experience symptoms such as the ones that I described (head fog, decreased memory, decreased cognitive horsepower) as I let my E2 creep past ~65 pg/dL, is "should we NEVER take anastrozole?" The answer you are going to give is likely a 'no'. And I will still tell you that the only thing combination that works for me to keep in an optimal zone of 'cognitive function' is the combination of DIM/Calcium d-glucarate (1-2 x per week) and 0.125 mg anastrozole 1x per week. So the answer cannot be to never use anastrozole, but to use sparingly if you have to.

 

[DS3]

well boys, keep thinking what you want, and keep immersing yourself in studies. Next year a new study will show that the old study was wrong. Keep thinking its your E and keep crashing it. Too smart for your own good is a thing.

Interesting @Nelson Vergel liked this post from you @Stylo. Continued learning and openness to new evidence is the cornerstone of progression in thinking and limiting the risk of reductionistic thinking. Unfortunately, as we get our heads stuck on singular modes of thinking it becomes hard to take a step back and review opposing evidence without dismissing it as an ephemeral blip.

Personally, I keep my E2 between ~50-70 pg/dL, the higher end being where I start to experience the head fog, decreased memory, and decreased cognitive horsepower. So for starters, this is hardly a 'crashing your E2 level.'

@Stylo conducting personal studies on yourself if you are intelligent and have been trained in some form of graduate degree in science (so you've gained exposure regarding how to conduct studies) is not that hard. As you track your hormone levels and see patterns in how you feel (and systematically record those as I do), specifically for me regarding cognitive function, it isn't hard to decipher what works and what doesn't.

To say "It's not your E2 causing your symptoms" to me is comical, to say the least. Tell me then, what does it mean when I keep my E2 between 50-70 pg/dL, and as I approach the 70 pg/dL mark the symptoms appear. Then, as I take Calcium d-glucarate and 0.125 mg anastrozole 1x per week the symptoms correct themselves and I am back to optimal cognitive function? As I microdose and keep my T levels at a near-constant, diet at a near-constant, supplements at a near-constant, exercise and sleep at a near-constant, and the only thing quantitatively or qualitatively that I am allowing to fluctuate is estrogen, what else do you propose is causing my symptoms that are quick to disappear as I take a tiny dosage of anastrozole to reduce E2?

 

[Stylo]

Ill tell you this...
If you gave it time to correct itself it will, but intervening is what will continue the need to manually correct it. As for my education, Im a Biomed Engineer who specializes in Cochlear Implants. Nothing to brag about, but Ive managed to give thousands of patients the gift of hearing via wireless technology and surgical witchcraft. Its far from Endocrinology. Whenever you approach complications, simplify it, and give it time. I know, I know its not a one size fits all, and Im well aware of that. 69 is not 70 yet a range of 60-70 is the same. So its a number that changes everyday, perhaps every hour. The point is trimming and adding because of a number you get from a test days earlier, is not the way to go. You’re dynamic and every input will affect you. Good question!! Always good to spar with an intelligent individual who has experience and class.

 

[DS3]

Ill tell you this...
If you gave it time to correct itself it will, but intervening is what will continue the need to manually correct it. As for my education, Im a Biomed Engineer who specializes in Cochlear Implants. Nothing to brag about, but Ive managed to give thousands of patients the gift of hearing via wireless technology and surgical witchcraft. Its far from Endocrinology. Whenever you approach complications, simplify it, and give it time. I know, I know its not a one size fits all, and Im well aware of that. 69 is not 70 yet a range of 60-70 is the same. So its a number that changes everyday, perhaps every hour. The point is trimming and adding because of a number you get from a test days earlier, is not the way to go. You’re dynamic and every input will affect you. Good question!! Always good to spar with an intelligent individual who has experience and class.

On a side note, your profession is really awesome. I’m sure it’s very rewarding.

Regarding the question I posed, you gave a non-answer. There is no ‘self-correction’ regarding aromatization. Estrogen follows Testosterone in TRT. There are no longer checks and balances. What is causing my qualitative problems that is somehow being fixed by managing (very, very mildly) my estrogen (so that I keep the ratio of T:E2 higher)?

 

[DS3]

Ill tell you this...
If you gave it time to correct itself it will, but intervening is what will continue the need to manually correct it. As for my education, Im a Biomed Engineer who specializes in Cochlear Implants. Nothing to brag about, but Ive managed to give thousands of patients the gift of hearing via wireless technology and surgical witchcraft. Its far from Endocrinology. Whenever you approach complications, simplify it, and give it time. I know, I know its not a one size fits all, and Im well aware of that. 69 is not 70 yet a range of 60-70 is the same. So its a number that changes everyday, perhaps every hour. The point is trimming and adding because of a number you get from a test days earlier, is not the way to go. You’re dynamic and every input will affect you. Good question!! Always good to spar with an intelligent individual who has experience and class.

Also, I’m not the person who started this thread stating that I’d crashed my estrogen. I manage mine well (and mildly).

 

[Stylo]

I know you didn’t start this thread, I do get caught up in convos. So I dont have a clear answer for you, or anyone else other than just allow your body to adjust. The brain fog could just mean that. I know that when I decided not control every parameter, I was iffY for a few weeks. Then things progressively got better. Anyway, it is what it is.

 

[DS3]

I know you didn’t start this thread, I do get caught up in convos. So I dont have a clear answer for you, or anyone else other than just allow your body to adjust. The brain fog could just mean that. I know that when I decided not control every parameter, I was iffY for a few weeks. Then things progressively got better. Anyway, it is what it is.

I understand the logic and I appreciate the feedback. I’ve been on TRT for nearly a decade and for the first 5 years I was not on an AI or any ancillary drug. The symptoms that I describe were present throughout the duration until I added in the tiny dosage of anastrozole and DIM/Calcium d-glucarate.

In TRT there cannot be absolutes such as ‘no man should take an AI at any time’. To establish such an absolute would be to disregard genetics entirely, not to mention disregarding the ephemeral state of science where we are always acquiring new data to support scientific decision-making. Worsening the issue of absolutes would be the fact that data supporting the effects of varying TRT protocols (including ancillary drugs) are not well-studies regarding their effect on cognition.