Clomid vs. Testosterone results, all other things equal

[mjb]

All things equal, (if T, E, and SHBG levels are the same) is there any reason that a patient on Clomiphene vs. Testosterone should experience different results? Is there more to it than the levels and ratios that result from either protocol? And if so, any insight into what and why?

The reason I ask, is that I am considering a switch from clomiphene to testosterone. I have been on clomiphene, anastrazole, and DHEA for 2 years. My lab numbers improved and remain good, but, if I'm being honest, that's about all that's changed. I have detailed records of my body comp and workouts for the past 10 years and I am at the same place I was when I began the protocol. Energy and mood is about the same, sex drive down a bit. Could I expect a different result with testosterone?

Here is a running log of my labs since starting clomiphene, anastrazole, and DHEA, just to quantify things a bit.

Testosterone, Serum 305-->788-->886-->1105-->1084-->934
Free Testosterone(Direct) 5-->15.7-->16.3 -->19.4-->16.3-->20.6
DHEA-Sulfate 106-->291.9-->253-->293.6-->600.5

LH 4-->4.5-->4.4-->4.3-->8.6

Estradiol, Sensitive 16.5 -->29.2 -->20.9-->29.7-->29.4-->28.5

SHBG 42-->46.9-->44-->68-->63-->61.2

T:E ratio 18.5 -->26.8-->41.43-->37-->36.8-->32.77
Free T : Total T 1.6%-->2%-->1.8%-->1.76%-->1.5%-->2.2%

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I started on Clomid and switched to T so my path is somewhat similar to yours but without the AI on Clomid. My two cents:

• Clomid apparently raises SHBG for many people so your premise that your numbers will be the same on T may not be valid, nor should it be necessarily
• Clomid is a very tricky compound to achieve steady state on due to the difference in the time that its subcomponents persist in the body. That is much less of a problem on T
• It seems based on the online reports of users that some people do quite well on Clomid alone, but I cannot ever remember a report of someone who did better on Clomid than T. Perhaps the good Doctors will chime in.
• There seems to be something about Clomid that limits it benefit for many people while similar numbers produced by exogenous T produce a better result for reasons not completely understood. In theory, the numbers produced by Clomid suggest it should work, but there seems to be something that limits its effectiveness for many people. You might to search for Patrick Arnold's blog post abut Clomid to get a sense for the complexity involved.

 

[blackebob]

I loved andro gel. I lost 25 pounds, sex was greeat. Dr talked me into clomid, and I havent been the same since feeling wise. two years now I am trying to get back to where was from the great clomid nightmare., there is something besides great numbers going on.

 

[Will Brink]

Could I expect a different result with testosterone?

I'd bet $ you'd notice a big difference. Even when "on paper" clomiphene is having similar effects to TRT, it's a rare man that actually feels subjectively much better using clomiphene in my experience. No reason not to give it a try if the man does not want to start with TRT, but the man who gets big benefits in labs and subjective symptoms using clomiphene is a unicorn man. I suspect the full mechanisms of clomiphene, being a mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist has yet to be fully elucidated in men, which may explain why labs can look good but subjective improvements minimal to nadda.

Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

 

[mjb]

You might to search for Patrick Arnold's blog post abut Clomid to get a sense for the complexity involved.
[/LIST]

That Patrick Arnold post is interesting. Thanks!

http://patrickarnoldblog.com/serms-as-an-alternative-to-testosterone-replacement-therapy/
"SERMs may act as estrogen antagonists in the brain and it is well known that many of the effects of testosterone upon libido and mood are due to its local conversion to DHT as well as estrogen (estradiol) in the CNS. Therefore blocking the effects of estrogen upon key levels of the brain may blunt the psychological response one would expect from testosterone."

"SERMs also are known to act as estrogen agonists (active estrogens) in the liver. This can have a couple of relevant effects. First of all, estrogens strongly promote the production of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). This protein circulates in your blood and irreversibly binds to sex hormones such as testosterone, rendering them inactive. So with a SERM you may have high total testosterone levels but actual bioactive testosterone may not be so high."

"Another consequence of SERM estrogen agonist action in the liver is suppression of IGF-1 production. IGF-1 is a systemic hormone responsible for whole body anabolism and it is produced in the liver under the positive influence of growth hormone, as well as other hormones such as insulin, thyroid hormone, and androgens. Estrogens on the other hand suppress IGF-1 production in the liver."

"Given the fact that it is well demonstrated that exogenous administration of testosterone increases IGF-1 levels in the blood you begin to see that this may be a big part of the SERM testosterone mystery. Systemic IGF-1 levels may not do much for contractile muscle tissue growth but they can lead to overall body composition changes and increases in bodyweight. The difference between the suppressed IGF-1 state (compared to control) of the SERM user to the heightened IGF-1 state (compared to control) of the exogenous testosterone user may indeed be quite profound."

 

[mjb]

I'd bet $ you'd notice a big difference. Even when "on paper" clomiphene is having similar effects to TRT, it's a rare man that actually feels subjectively much better using clomiphene in my experience. No reason not to give it a try if the man does not want to start with TRT, but the man who gets big benefits in labs and subjective symptoms using clomiphene is a unicorn man. I suspect the full mechanisms of clomiphene, being a mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist has yet to be fully elucidated in men, which may explain why labs can look good but subjective improvements minimal to nadda.

Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

Guess I'll have to try TRT and see.

 

[mjb]

I loved andro gel. I lost 25 pounds, sex was greeat. Dr talked me into clomid, and I havent been the same since feeling wise. two years now I am trying to get back to where was from the great clomid nightmare., there is something besides great numbers going on.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Back on transdermals now?

 

[mjb]

Results after switching from clomiphene to testosterone

New protocol for past 3 months has been 50mg test cypionate and 250iu hCG every 2 days.

Feeling great. Visible physique changes, with increased lean mass and decreased fat as measured by scale and calipers. Started at 173 lbs., now 182 lbs. Up ~10 lean pounds while losing 4 of fat, if you believe the tools used. To be fair, I was on the light side for me when I made the switch. But still haven't had this amount of lean muscle in 4 years by my records.

Sex drive way, way up. Almost annoyingly so at times.

Fatigue reduced. Coffee usage down by half.

LABS
Pre-Clomiphene
Clomiphene/Anastrozole/DHEA
Testosterone/HCG/DHEA

Testosterone, Serum 305-->788-->886-->1105-->1084-->934-->1039
Free Testosterone(Direct) 5-->15.7-->16.3 -->19.4-->16.3-->20.6-->26.4
DHEA-Sulfate 106-->291.9-->253-->293.6-->600.5-->453.1


LH 4-->4.5-->4.4-->4.3-->8.6


Estradiol, Sensitive 16.5 -->29.2 -->20.9-->29.7-->29.4-->28.5-->72.8


SHBG 42-->46.9-->44-->68-->63-->61.2-->38.4


T:E ratio 18.5 -->26.8-->41.43-->37-->36.8-->32.77-->14.3


Free T : Total T 1.6%-->2%-->1.8%-->1.76%-->1.5%-->2.2%-->2.5%