johndoesmith
Member
Lots of interesting talking points!! Here's my angle on it ... The whole purpose of administering HCG or Clomid is for the benefit of LH. Men diagnosed with Secondary Hypogonadism can achieve benefit of testicular well being, and in other areas of the body where LH receptor sites are present. However, most 'secondary' males are lacking adequate GNRH> LH production (for one reason or another), thus TRT is needed (I know this 101 for most, but just recapping).
Clomid is a SERM to stimulate natural LH production in the pituitary, whereas HCG is the LH analog in a bottle, no guesswork, you dial in your dose and it's guaranteed LH each and every time. My point being that we are exploring how to get LH circulating throughout our bodies again, because for whatever reason the brain 'cannot' produce and/or sustain production of it, yet some are taking a medication (Clomid) that will stimulate the pituitary to produce LH?!?! (But wait, we are on TRT because our axis has failed).
It just seems a bit redundant when knowing HCG could easily provide an exact amount of LH every time you take it. Clomid's effectiveness will be different with each person, and it will solely depend on a person's pituitary situation. Additionally, to Gene's point, the HPTA will be in a state of conflict with elevated testosterone serum levels from exogenous medication. This doesn't mean it (Clomid) can't have any upsides, everyone is different, but again it's all guesswork, and you're relying on an area in the brain that was deemed unreliable. This is what warranted TRT to begin with.
I'm not trying to attack you just start a discussion.
I haven't seen anything supporting the idea of GNRH production in secondary hypogonadal men nor lack of response from GNRH to release LH. With clomid usually the numbers respond but the patient doesn't feel a difference, they look good on paper but how they feel doesn't improve.
Most men do seem to respond to clomid, IME from reading labs online and such, although there are a few that I've seen who do not respond.
hCG seems to have poorer response long term than clomid does, eventually the testosterone production decreases with the same dose of hCG. Certainly interesting, just doesn't agree with everything I've seen or read.
You can read it for yourself on his forum. We are not allowed to post links to other forums. Dr. Crisler posted it himself recently.
I went to his forum, and you are absolutely correct, a member there asked what his opinion was of TRT + clomid as an alternative to hCG for testicular size.
Dr John Crisler responded "I think it's a good idea".
Sorry to make fun of you, you were correct, he does seem to support it now.