Cautionary HCG Story and Need Help w/ Estradiol

[stx358]

Greetings gents -

After cruising along for months with textbook labs on 0.4 ml of Test Cyp Q 3.5 and 150 IU every day of HCG I posted before on a strange decrease in Total T. On January 1 my labs (from Discounted Labs) were such:

Total T - 626
Free T - 19.7
Estradiol LC/MS - 37.1
SHBG - 40.3

Previous total T's hovered around 1000 for months. I increased my dose of Test Cyp to 0.5 ml Q 3.5 and kept HCG dose the same HOWEVER I switched from compounded HCG to prescription HCG because I suspected I was getting bad product from my doctor. My labs from this past week showed the following (note: - my doctor does not order from a lab that uses LC/MS assay):

Total T - 1460
Free T - 33.2
Estradiol NOT LC/MS - 68.2
SHBG - 44

As it is unlikely that a dose increase of 0.1 ml Q 3.5 caused my Total T to go from 626 to 1460 I suspect that I was using garbage HCG and that I responded quite well to the prescription product. The doctor has decreased my dose down to 0.35 ml of Test Cyp Q 3.5 and kept the HCG dose at 150 IU daily. My more pressing issue is that estradiol of 68. I realize the number may not be accurate due to the non sensitive test but nonetheless I believe it is likely far too high and I am not happy with the effect on my libido.

I do not subscribe to the overaggressive use of AIs but I was wondering if short term use of something is warranted and what a conservative strategy might be to get that estradiol down to a safe level.

 

[madman]

Greetings gents -

After cruising along for months with textbook labs on 0.4 ml of Test Cyp Q 3.5 and 150 IU every day of HCG I posted before on a strange decrease in Total T. On January 1 my labs (from Discounted Labs) were such:

Total T - 626
Free T - 19.7
Estradiol LC/MS - 37.1
SHBG - 40.3

Previous total T's hovered around 1000 for months. I increased my dose of Test Cyp to 0.5 ml Q 3.5 and kept HCG dose the same HOWEVER I switched from compounded HCG to prescription HCG because I suspected I was getting bad product from my doctor. My labs from this past week showed the following (note: - my doctor does not order from a lab that uses LC/MS assay):

Total T - 1460
Free T - 33.2
Estradiol NOT LC/MS - 68.2
SHBG - 44

As it is unlikely that a dose increase of 0.1 ml Q 3.5 caused my Total T to go from 626 to 1460 I suspect that I was using garbage HCG and that I responded quite well to the prescription product. The doctor has decreased my dose down to 0.35 ml of Test Cyp Q 3.5 and kept the HCG dose at 150 IU daily. My more pressing issue is that estradiol of 68. I realize the number may not be accurate due to the non sensitive test but nonetheless I believe it is likely far too high and I am not happy with the effect on my libido.

I do not subscribe to the overaggressive use of AIs but I was wondering if short term use of something is warranted and what a conservative strategy might be to get that estradiol down to a safe level.

If your cypionate is 200mg/ml strength than .4 ml would be 80 mg every 3.5 days so you are injecting 160 mg/week and you basically increased your dose to .5 ml and are now injecting 100 mg every 3.5 days so you are now injecting 200 mg/week which is a significant jump in testosterone dose hence big increase in total/free t and estradiol.

The small 150 IU hcg dose you are injecting daily would not have a significant effect on elevating your testosterone that much.

A dose increase of 10-20 mg of testosterone/week would moved ones numbers up and you basically added 40 mg testosterone/week which is huge!

Decrease your weekly testosterone dose and do not even think of adding an a.i. unless you are experiencing high e2 symptoms and you have the estradiol sensitive assay test done to truly see where your e2 sits.

A total t of 1460 ng/dl is really high for a trough!

 

[Nashtide]

If your cypionate is 200mg/ml strength than .4 ml would be 80 mg every 3.5 days so you are injecting 160 mg/week and you basically increased your dose to .5 ml and are now injecting 100 mg every 3.5 days so you are now injecting 200 mg/week which is a significant jump in testosterone dose hence big increase in total/free t and estradiol.

The small 150 IU hcg dose you are injecting daily would not have a significant effect on elevating your testosterone that much.

A dose increase of 10-20 mg of testosterone/week would moved ones numbers up and you basically added 40 mg testosterone/week which is huge!

Decrease your weekly testosterone dose and do not even think of adding an a.i. unless you are experiencing high e2 symptoms and you have the estradiol sensitive assay test done to truly see where your e2 sits.

A total t of 1460 ng/dl is really high for a trough!

Agree 100%. With those TT numbers you are bound to have high E2 and run the risk of high hematocrit issues.

 

[Vince]

Just remember you can't compare the two different types of estradiol testing, if you are having no symptoms of of high estradiol levels. I wouldn't be concerned, you're feel really good, does it really matter. Your testosterone levels are very high, so I would think you need to lower your T dose.

 

[Gman86]

This is my exact experience as well. Compounding pharmacy HCG did not do much at all for my testosterone levels. I tried 2 different compounding pharmacy brands, same results with both. I switched to Pregnyl HCG, and it boosts my testosterone levels a bunch. 3 years ago I tried HCG monotherapy, with Pregnyl, and with different dosages. I then switched doctors and unfortunately had to go on compounding pharmacy HCG. I'm now with Defy, and luckily am using Pregnyl again. Here were my results on HCG mono therapy with Pregnyl.


12-30-15
Pregnyl HCG - 2000IU/ week split into EOD dosing
Anastrozole 0.25mg 2x/ week
Total 1185 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free 171.7 (46.0-224.0)
Bioavailable 345.6 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 39
E2 Sensitive - 43


2-11-16
Pregnyl HCG - 2000IU/ week split into EOD dosing
Anastrozole 0.25mg 2x/ week
Total 1193 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free 168.9 (46.0-224.0)
Bioavailable 362.1 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 39
E2 Sensitive - 55


4-12-16
Pregnyl HCG - 1000IU/ week split into EOD dosing
Anastrozole 0.25mg 2x/ week
Total 579 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free 71.4 (46.0-224.0)
143.8 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 38
E2 Sensitive - 11


LATEST LABS:

2-25-18
108mg test/ week split into EOD dosing
800IU Pregnyl HCG/ week split into EOD dosing
No AI

Total 1687 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free 238.6 (46.0-224.0)
Bioavailable 459.6 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 47
E2 Sensitive - 73
E2 Standard - 59


ALL LABS IN THIS POST WERE DRAWN IN THE MORNING ON INJECTION DAY PRIOR TO INJECTION

 

[Gman86]

To sum my post up, 2,000IU's of Pregnyl HCG boosts my testosterone level to around 1200. 1,000IU's of Pregnyl HCG boosts my testosterone level to around 600

 

[Nashtide]

To sum my post up, 2,000IU's of Pregnyl HCG boosts my testosterone level to around 1200. 1,000IU's of Pregnyl HCG boosts my testosterone level to around 600

I use a pretty small dose of hcg. 250iu twice weekly. I've used compounded and pregnyl and don't see any discernible difference. Except the price!

 

[Gman86]

Haha the price definitely sucks. But I think this is exactly the issues that come along with HCG. Everyone is different in how they are going to react to it. More so than testosterone injections. Everyone's leydig cells in their testicles are going to respond to HCG differently, and consequently boost testosterone levels differently, even on the same brand and same dose.

Also, every compounding pharmacy's HCG is most likely slightly different, and then all those are probably slightly different than brand name HCG. Then you factor in human error when reconstituting, how gentle the person is with the HCG during the next couple months after reconstitution, how long the HCG has been reconstituted for (as everyone knows HCG slowly loses potency overtime), possible human error when drawing up HCG, and like I said before the different responses people are going to get from their leydig cells once HCG is injected.........well this my friends is why there is so much controversy over HCG.

 

[Re-Ride]

stx358 You clearly post your current weekly dose of t cyp to be 140 mg per week yet members mistakenly reply that you are at taking 200 mg per and further go on to give medical advice to reduce your dose.

A protocol of 180 mg per week over many months was just fine as far as your reported sense of well being was concerned. You only began to run in to problems why? Easy, you got a single set of hormone labs back reporting a drop of total T by approx 350 to a reported 626 ng/dL. You panicked and changed your dose.

Solution: Stop getting excessive hormone labs and start trusting how you feel. You used different laboratories any how. My prescribing endo with 40 year of experience does not believe in the type of excessive testing seen on these pages. Nevertheless he has been willing to go along with it. I made the decision to cease lab testing 9 months ago due to the results being not believable and the major, major hassle in obtaining labs and/or results that both the MD and myself wanted. Incidentally, I've noticed a correlation between members here who engage in excessive testing and reading comprehension issues.

You are wise to choose branded hCG distributed by American Big Pharma instead of compounded. They are deep pockets and are going to protect their backside. Other members do not have a choice.

 

[Vince Carter]

its worth noting, too, that only if you're Secondary Hypogonadal is there going to be a endo T bump with HCG use

 

[Gman86]

Exactly. Another reason why there’s so much controversy over HCG. Some men are primary, some are secondary. And there’s also even degrees to how secondary each individual is

 

[madman]

stx358 You clearly post your current weekly dose of t cyp to be 140 mg per week yet members mistakenly reply that you are at taking 200 mg per and further go on to give medical advice to reduce your dose.

A protocol of 180 mg per week over many months was just fine as far as your reported sense of well being was concerned. You only began to run in to problems why? Easy, you got a single set of hormone labs back reporting a drop of total T by approx 350 to a reported 626 ng/dL. You panicked and changed your dose.

Solution: Stop getting excessive hormone labs and start trusting how you feel. You used different laboratories any how. My prescribing endo with 40 year of experience does not believe in the type of excessive testing seen on these pages. Nevertheless he has been willing to go along with it. I made the decision to cease lab testing 9 months ago due to the results being not believable and the major, major hassle in obtaining labs and/or results that both the MD and myself wanted. Incidentally, I've noticed a correlation between members here who engage in excessive testing and reading comprehension issues.

You are wise to choose branded hCG distributed by American Big Pharma instead of compounded. They are deep pockets and are going to protect their backside. Other members do not have a choice.

If the test cyp is 200 mg/ml and he was cruising along for months injecting .4 ml sub-q every 3.5 days than he was injecting 80 mg every 3.5 days (160 mg/week) and also using compounded hcg 150 IU daily and his total t was 626.

He than went on to increase his dose to .5 ml (100 mg) every 3.5 days so now he is injecting 200 mg/week and switched from compounded hcg to big pharma hcg (150 IU daily) and his total t was 1460.

His doctor just recently lowered his dose to .35 ml (70 mg) every 3.5 days so now he is on 140 mg/week.

His total t trough is 1460 from the .5 ml (100 mg) every 3.5 day protocol so yes 200 mg/week and it would be sensible to lower that dose.

No one said to lower his just recently changed dose of .35 ml (70 mg) every 3.5 days as in 140 mg/week as he does not even have labs yet on that dose seeing as his dose was just lowered.

I am using Delatestryl (enanthate) 200 mg/ml strength and inject .375 ml (75 mg) every 3.5 days so 150 mg/week.

What do you not understand?

 

[HR_Watson]

To sum my post up, 2,000IU's of Pregnyl HCG boosts my testosterone level to around 1200. 1,000IU's of Pregnyl HCG boosts my testosterone level to around 600

Really interesting post Gman. I'm secondary as well and taking generic, non-compounded hCG. It's extremely effective, almost identical dosage and numbers as you, but I'm developing gyno. I'm considering giving Pregnyl a try, both brands are covered by my insurance, but it's $15 vs $50.

So you've had testosterone levels at 1200, and you've had it at 600, and now with a mix of T & hCG you're at 1700.

At what point were you feeling good, and why did you change your treatment? Is your story anywhere on here?

 

[Gman86]

No I never posted my entire story I don't think. My original issue was brain fog though, which hasn't yet subsided. So although I have experienced a bunch of positive things from TRT, my original issue is still lingering. So really haven't felt super great on any protocol yet, so just trying to dial in my current protocol numbers wise, while also focusing on whatever underlying issue is causing the brain fog. Which I believe is low magnesium possibly caused by supplementing with excessive Vitamin D dosages. So working on getting Magnesium RBC levels up atm.

Reason I switched from HCG mono therapy to TRT/ HCG was that mono therapy was increasing my E2 a ton. The biggest reason wasn't even the E2 though, it was the elevated prolactin I believe. I never had prolactin tested while on mono therapy, but my E2 is high now, and have absolutely zero nipple sensitivity or itchiness. So I believe if I would of tested prolactin, on monotherapy, it would of came back very high. Because while on mono therapy, at 2,000iu's per week, my nipples would itch so much that they would literally bleed from all the scratching I did. I would have to put tape over my nipples during the day. I also started to grow a tiny little ball in one nipple, which reversed itself with more Anastrozole thank god. So unfortunately monotherapy just converted to downstream hormones too much for it to be an effective protocol for me. Doing much better on testosterone as the base of my protocol with HCG added to it, instead of HCG being the primary testosterone source of my protocol.

 

[Re-Ride]

(you) are now injecting 100 mg every 3.5 days so you are now injecting 200 mg/week which is a significant jump in testosterone dose hence big increase in total/free t and estradiol...

Decrease your weekly testosterone dose and do not even think of adding an a.i. unless you are experiencing high e2 symptoms and you have the estradiol sensitive assay test done to truly see where your e2 sits.

...

That's what you said in post #2 madman. Addressing op I suggested , without naming you, that he consider the advice given was based on oversight. It is surprising therefore that you would then quote me and ask me "What it is that (I) don't understand?"

 

[HR_Watson]

No I never posted my entire story I don't think. My original issue was brain fog though, which hasn't yet subsided. So although I have experienced a bunch of positive things from TRT, my original issue is still lingering. So really haven't felt super great on any protocol yet, so just trying to dial in my current protocol numbers wise, while also focusing on whatever underlying issue is causing the brain fog. Which I believe is low magnesium possibly caused by supplementing with excessive Vitamin D dosages. So working on getting Magnesium RBC levels up atm.

Reason I switched from HCG mono therapy to TRT/ HCG was that mono therapy was increasing my E2 a ton. The biggest reason wasn't even the E2 though, it was the elevated prolactin I believe. I never had prolactin tested while on mono therapy, but my E2 is high now, and have absolutely zero nipple sensitivity or itchiness. So I believe if I would of tested prolactin, on monotherapy, it would of came back very high. Because while on mono therapy, at 2,000iu's per week, my nipples would itch so much that they would literally bleed from all the scratching I did. I would have to put tape over my nipples during the day. I also started to grow a tiny little ball in one nipple, which reversed itself with more Anastrozole thank god. So unfortunately monotherapy just converted to downstream hormones too much for it to be an effective protocol for me. Doing much better on testosterone as the base of my protocol with HCG added to it, instead of HCG being the primary testosterone source of my protocol.

Thanks for responding. Would you mind if I PM you? I suspect that we're close in age, and we seem to be really similar responders, I'd love to ask you a few questions.

 

[Gman86]

Ya absolutely, I'd love to go over any questions you have. I'm 31 btw

 

[madman]

That's what you said in post #2 madman. Addressing op I suggested , without naming you, that he consider the advice given was based on oversight. It is surprising therefore that you would then quote me and ask me "What it is that (I) don't understand?"

I did state to him to decrease his weekly testosterone dose relating to when he was injecting .5 ml (100 mg) every 3.5 days (200 mg/week) with a trough of 1462. I was also making a point to him that he needed to lower that dose.

I was in no way telling him to decrease the new lower dose of .35 ml (70 mg) every 3.5 days (140 mg/week) that his doctor requested as he has not been on the new lower dose long enough to even have had lab work done so no one knows his numbers.

Next time just say my name out instead of preaching the all high and mighty!

 

[Re-Ride]

Madman, next time perhaps I'll send whoever makes an oversight that might negatively impact the op's decision a PM so he can correct it himself. I did wait to see if someone else would catch it. No doubt we'd all like to keep other peoples threads free of comments not directly relevant to their thread.

 

[HR_Watson]

Ya absolutely, I'd love to go over any questions you have. I'm 31 btw

Awesome, thanks! PM'd you!