Beginner weight lifting questions?

[Systemlord]

I have been going to the gym every day working out a different muscle group daily and I have notice light to moderate weight, my muscles swell up and are sore, I feel it too, however heavy weights does little to muscle soreness or swelling.

Today I lifted very heavy weight, curled 80 lbs low reps (6) and didn't stop each set of reps until I started losing composure or was out of gas, resting for 3-5 minutes in-between sets. I tried heavier weight, but couldn't do more than 2-3 reps, so I settled at 80 lbs doing 6 reps for a total of 10 sets. I didn't feel the pump like when I do high reps (10-12) light to moderate (40-50 lbs) weight.

It could be not enough time has passed to feel the effects of heavy weights, but nonetheless I walkout out of the gym wondering why I didn't feel it the same way when doing higher reps.

Why is this?

 

[Deleted member 43589]

I have been going to the gym every day working out a different muscle group daily and I have notice light to moderate weight, my muscles swell up and are sore, I feel it too, however heavy weights does little to muscle soreness or swelling.

Today I lifted very heavy weight, curled 80 lbs low reps (6) and didn't stop each set of reps until I started losing composure or was out of gas, resting for 3-5 minutes in-between sets. I tried heavier weight, but couldn't do more than 2-3 reps, so I settled at 80 lbs doing 6 reps for a total of 10 sets. I didn't feel the pump like when I do high reps (10-12) light to moderate (40-50 lbs) weight.

It could be not enough time has passed to feel the effects of heavy weights, but nonetheless I walkout out of the gym wondering why I didn't feel it the same way when doing higher reps.

Why is this?

Here is what science has found out in the last few years. There are thought to be two types of hypertrophy:

We know myofibrillar hypertrophy is accomplished via the growth and multiplication of the myofibrils inside each muscle fiber. This is thought to happen optimally in the lower repetition ranges (1-5) with heavy weight. This type of hypertrophy is more functional, so the muscles get much stronger.

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy in theory is accomplished by the expansion of the sarcoplasm (the cytoplasm of the muscle) inside the muscle fiber. This is a more non-functional growth which is thought to kickstart hypertrophy process. When the muscle cell is super saturated with glucose and amino acids you feel more of a pump. This results in the sarcoplasm expanding at a significantly faster rate than the myofibrils grow and divide. This seems to be accomplished with higher rep ranges (6-15).

This probably explains the difference in musculature between powerlifters and bodybuilders. It also explains why your muscles feel different doing low reps and heavy weight and higher reps and lower weight.

Here is one of themore recent studies on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy

Muscle fiber hypertrophy in response to 6 weeks of high-volume resistance training in trained young men is largely attributed to sarcoplasmic hypertrophy

Cellular adaptations that occur during skeletal muscle hypertrophy in response to high-volume resistance training are not well-characterized. Therefore, we sought to explore how actin, myosin, sarcoplasmic protein, mitochondrial, and glycogen concentrations ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Systemlord]

I was wondering, is there any reason why I shouldn't switch from a low reps heavy weight, then go with lighter weights and higher reps to finish my workout of that muscle group?

 

[CKO]

So there's several different schools of thought on lifting. Since you mentioned you are doing specific muscle groups separately, you are taking more of a traditional bodybuilding approach. With bodybuilding the goal is to tear down the muscle as much as possible (hypertrophy) in order to allow the muscle fibers to regrow larger. This will increase the size and density of your muscles. It doesn't directly correlate to strength.

Lifting heavy with lower reps directly correlates to strength, but may not create as much hypertrophy and therefore not as much size gains. A classic example of this would be Olympic lifters doing a clean or snatch. They are not built like a bodybuilder but they are incredibly strong and rarely lift more than four to six reps at a time.

You are approach of lifting heavy then finishing with lighter weights is actually a very good way to do both.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

I was wondering, is there any reason why I shouldn't switch from a low reps heavy weight, then go with lighter weights and higher reps to finish my workout of that muscle group?

No reason at all. Mr Olympia Ronnie Coleman had two different workouts going 6 days per week, The 1st 3 days were low reps heavy weight and the 2nd 3 days were higher reps, lighter weight. The created a much more dense muscle base.

 

[bixt]

I was wondering, is there any reason why I shouldn't switch from a low reps heavy weight, then go with lighter weights and higher reps to finish my workout of that muscle group?

Better to alternate both every few weeks, as your body gets used to the one type, you switch.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

You can also easily hit all rep ranges in one workout.
1 x 15
1 x 12
1 x 10
1 x 8
1 x 6
1 x 3

 

[bixt]

You can also easily hit all rep ranges in one workout.
1 x 15
1 x 12
1 x 10
1 x 8
1 x 6
1 x 3

Interesting! Regarding adaptation to stimulus and continued gains, does this method help in any way?

 

[savefoxes]

You're supposed to do 8-12 reps until failure with the same weight for 3-4 sets. And increase the weight when you can do more then 12. Doing 10 sets is a waste of time

 

[Nujace]

You're supposed to do 8-12 reps until failure with the same weight for 3-4 sets. And increase the weight when you can do more then 12. Doing 10 sets is a waste of time

One of the most effective workout blocks I’ve experienced in my 30 years of resistance training is a 10x10 protocol known as German volume training (GVT). Highly effective routine.

perhaps my favorite volume style routine is the Vince Gironda‘s 8x8 program. That crazy guy was so far ahead of his time that his programs are experiencing a bit of a renaissance in lifting circles currently. Some of the exercises he created are brilliant.

Anyways, my point is there’s really no set rep and set scheme that needs to be followed every time you train. We are individually comprised of different amounts of fast and slow twitch muscle fibers that benefit from a range of reps and sets. It’s really more about finding out how you respond best to different styles and routines and then catering to that.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

You're supposed to do 8-12 reps until failure with the same weight for 3-4 sets. And increase the weight when you can do more then 12. Doing 10 sets is a waste of time

I would sure be interested in hearing your explaination about why you are supposed to do 8-12 sets until failure for 3-4 sets. Why is doing 10 sets a waste of time? I think research has shown that a minimum of 10 sets is optimal for hypertrophy. Most pro bodybuilders do 15-25 sets per body part. Research has also shown that failure is not necessary for optimal growth.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Interesting! Regarding adaptation to stimulus and continued gains, does this method help in any way?

Because we are all individual we can't be sure where optimal is in the myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy range. Obviously doing heavy triples is going to cause some sarcrplasmic hypertrophy where as doing 12 reps is also going to cause some myofibrillar hypertrophy. So training in all ranges may assure that you hit an optimal range. We do know for most people volume seems to be the most important factor in training for muscle size, heavy weight seems to be the best for strength.

 

[savefoxes]

I would sure be interested in hearing your explaination about why you are supposed to do 8-12 sets until failure for 3-4 sets. Whyis doing 10 sets a waste of time? I think research has shown that a minimum of 10 sets is optimal for hypertrophy. Most pro bodybuilders do 15-25 sets per body part. Research has also shown that failure is not necessary for optimal growth.

10-12 sets per body part per week is optimal. Not 10 sets per workout. Failure is not necessary when doing compound movements like squats, but it's recommended when doing biceps curls and so on

 

[bixt]

I think research has shown that a minimum of 10 sets is optimal for hypertrophy. Most pro bodybuilders do 15-25 sets per body part

The last time I checked, a survey showed that 3/4 of pros were using DC (aka "doggcrapp") training with ONE, yes ONE effective (albeit extended with "rest pause" intensity) set!!!!!!

 

[Deleted member 43589]

10-12 sets per body part per week is optimal. Not 10 sets per workout. Failure is not necessary when doing compound movements like squats, but it's recommended when doing biceps curls and so on

Let me add science to the picture.

Effects of resistance training performed to repetition failure or non-failure on muscular strength and hypertrophy: A systematic review and meta-analysis

We aimed to perform a systematic review and meta-analysis of the effects of training to muscle failure or non-failure on muscular strength and hypertr…

www.sciencedirect.com

Conclusion​

Training to muscle failure does not seem to be required for gains in strength and muscle size. However, training in this manner does not seem to have detrimental effects on these adaptations, either. More studies should be conducted among older adults and highly trained individuals to improve the generalizability of these findings.

How about optimal volume?

Conclusions: Marked increases in strength and endurance can be attained by resistance-trained individuals with just three 13-min weekly sessions over an 8-wk period, and these gains are similar to that achieved with a substantially greater time commitment. Alternatively, muscle hypertrophy follows a dose-response relationship, with increasingly greater gains achieved with higher training volumes.

Resistance Training Volume Enhances Muscle Hypertrophy but Not Strength in Trained Men - PubMed

Marked increases in strength and endurance can be attained by resistance-trained individuals with just three 13-min weekly sessions over an 8-wk period, and these gains are similar to that achieved with a substantially greater time commitment. Alternatively, muscle hypertrophy follows a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Is 10 set really a waste of time?

Discussion
Beyond the observed supplementation effects, a unique finding of this investigation is the apparent dose-response relationship observed between RT volume and LBM changes corrected for alterations in ECW (Figure 6). It has been suggested that a positive relationship exists between RT volume and skeletal muscle hypertrophy up to a certain volume threshold (32). A recent meta-analysis by Schoenfeld et al. (14) demonstrated significantly greater hypertrophic responses after completion of 10 sets per week of a resistance exercise emphasizing specific musculature compared to <5 sets per week. However, others have suggested that a plateau in the hypertrophic response exists beyond select RT doses (33). Our data indicate no clear plateau in RT-induced muscle mass increases when RT volumes are increased from 10 sets of 10 repetitions at 60% 1RM per exercise per week up to 32 sets per week, and this interpretation stems from the significant increases observed in DXA LBM from weeks 1 to 3 and 3 to 6.

Conclusion
.......suggesting that ~20 sets per exercise per week may approach a maximal adaptable volume in younger resistance-trained men.

Frontiers | Effects of Graded Whey Supplementation During Extreme-Volume Resistance Training

We examined hypertrophic outcomes of weekly graded whey protein dosing (GWP) vs. whey protein (WP) or maltodextrin (MALTO) dosed once daily during 6 weeks of...

www.frontiersin.org

In summing up the literature to date, the one thing that appears clear is that volume plays a fairly prominent role in maximizing growth, but nevertheless significant hypertrophy can be obtained at fairly low volumes.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

The last time I checked, a survey showed that 3/4 of pros were using DC (aka "doggcrapp") training with ONE, yes ONE effective (albeit extended with "rest pause" intensity) set!!!!!!

Can you please post that survey? Dr. Brad Schoenfeld actually did a survey of IFBB pro bodybuilders and found out most do the following. I posted the video here somewhere when he even mentioned it:

1. high volume -10-20 sets per body part
2. one body part per trainninng session.

I have done DC many times. Its good but just not enough volume for most to grow. I got strong, but it also put my connective sittue under a lot of stress. I Remembrer talking tto Lee Haney when I lived in LA. He said doing heavy singles, doubles, and triples is absolutely insane for a prolevel bodybuilder but you are putting your career at risk if you get injured doing the low volume work. Makes a lot fo sense, after I detached all three quads and shattered my patella in 2010, I never competed agin.

I competed in the sport of powerlifting for 27 years starting at the 181lb weight class end retiring in the 308's. I had a 2275lb total and was ranked #1 in the 275's and #2 in the 308's in the same year in the world. I trained only singles and only did high reps on accessory exercises. I was very strong but absolutely not a bodybuilder and any form or fashion. My wife on the other hand retired as a pro bodybuilder. She spent her entire career training very high volume, some of it to failure (total exhaustions). She looked very much like a bodybuilder but was not a powerlifter in any form or fashion.

Go find videos of Big Ramey current Mr Olympia. He does volume, sets of 10 reps even. Brandon Curry, high volume, Phil Heath, high volume, Jay Cutler, high volume, Dexter Jackson, high volume, Ronnie Coleman, high volume, Dorian Yates, more of a DC training but he called it HIT, Lee Haney, high volume. We have gone back quite a few years now, I believe a guy named Dave Henry says he uses it and there are certainly some in the NPC use it. Phil Heath for instance does 16 sets of 10 reps for the chest. Coleman 15 sets per body part. Cutler 14 sets per body part. Lee Haney, 14 sets per body part. Most all of these guys work all bodyparts 2 x/wk as well. Branch Warren 17 sets per bodypart. Big Ramey, ~19 sets per body part. Most all of these guys I have talked to in person.

One thing science and IFBB pros seem to agree on:

In conclusion, multiple sets are associated with 40% greater hypertrophy-related ESs than 1 set, in both trained and untrained subjects.

Single vs. multiple sets of resistance exercise for muscle hypertrophy: a meta-analysis - PubMed

Previous meta-analyses have compared the effects of single to multiple sets on strength, but analyses on muscle hypertrophy are lacking. The purpose of this study was to use multilevel meta-regression to compare the effects of single and multiple sets per exercise on muscle hypertrophy. The...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here is Dr. Brad Schoenfeld and the late John Medows.

 

[TLawyer]

No reason at all. Mr Olympia Ronnie Coleman had two different workouts going 6 days per week, The 1st 3 days were low reps heavy weight and the 2nd 3 days were higher reps, lighter weight. The created a much more dense muscle base.

Let's keep in mind that Coleman was also blasting steroids. I'm not disputing the theory and effects of high versus low reps, high versus low weights, etc., but someone with "normal" testosterone levels would be incredibly overtrained if they tried to mimic the workouts of someone who is blasting steroids. Working out six days week and doing more than a hundred reps is a recipe for trouble.

 

[Belekas]

Let's keep in mind that Coleman was also blasting steroids. I'm not disputing the theory and effects of high versus low reps, high versus low weights, etc., but someone with "normal" testosterone levels would be incredibly overtrained if they tried to mimic the workouts of someone who is blasting steroids. Working out six days week and doing more than a hundred reps is a recipe for trouble.

Absolutely agree on this one. For natural athletes depending on age and recovery this is dead end. Been there, done that. Was 20yo could do 5-6 workours/week, recover and do it all over again. Now close to 40 I go with 3-4 workouts per week and I ache like never before, but theres a caveat that my hormones are not balanced and optimised yet fwiw. Also Coleman was the best but his training technique and strategy or we could say mindset made him a cripple. It's painful to even look at him now but once asked he said he would def do it all over again and in the same hardcore fashion which is the opposite of how Dorian Yates for example trained- smart, or smarter fwiw.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Come on..... how many of us here are really natural? TRT is not natural. @Belekas, I turn 66 and I still workout 5 day a week. Better get those hormones balanced.

Yates trained what he found out worked best for his body. Cutler is doing pretty well but he trained more in the middle of the bell curve with lots of volume. Lee Haney is looking pretty well the last time I saw him. He trained high voume. Coleman is the only one who mixed powerlifting with bodybuilding. But he did say one time his mother has the same problems with the back. Much of this is very much genetic.

The bottom line of this whole discussion is you aren't "supposed to train 8-12 resps for 3-4 sets with the same weight." and 10 sets is not a waste of time.

 

[Belekas]

Come on..... how many of us here are really natural? TRT is not natural. @Belekas, I turn 66 and I still workout 5 day a week. Better get those hormones balanced.

Yates trained what he found out worked best for his body. Cutler is doing pretty well but he trained more in the middle of the bell curve with lots of volume. Lee Haney is looking pretty well the last time I saw him. He trained high voume. Coleman is the only one who mixed powerlifting with bodybuilding. But he did say one time his mother has the same problems with the back. Much of this is very much genetic.

The bottom line of this whole discussion is you aren't "supposed to train 8-12 resps for 3-4 sets with the same weight." and 10 sets is not a waste of time.

I respect your opinion and also have mine. Some folks are still natural, some decide to come off TRT for different reasons and so on. Even if you are not natural overtraining is a real thing, fuck what Rich Piana said, that it doesn't exsist. You don't have to train 5 days per week even with balanced hormones unless you make a living from that. And I don't care if you enjoy it or whatever, unless your goals are not longevity and wellness then I'm sure you will be better training less then more but a bit harder then 99% train. About Coleman, well he talks whatever comes to his mind, and its no way to verify some of his claims but he def destroyed himself doing what he loved and would even do it all again, despite sitting pretty much in a wheelchair. So thats two different spectrums to me comparing Yates to him fwiw. Respect to you for still training and going in hard Sorry for offtopic.