At my wits end

[Will Brink]

I think penile sensitivity and intensidy of climax is much harder to fix than libido.

I had zero libido for almost 10 years and developed ED about 3 years ago.
My last protocol change sent my trough TT to 1175 and FT to 35 with E2 at 28.
I was chasing my wife around the house and 3 hours after sex I was horny again.

Not to be cruel and such, but I have always maintained you take say a 70 year old man in decent shape with no libido , with a 70 year old out of shape wife he's not physically attracted to, and put a 25 year old attractive girl in front of him, and it's astounding how fast that libido returns. Knew a guy recently who'd lost all libido for his wife of 5 years, which also resulted in ED. He was in great shape, 45, good hormones, etc. He spent years looking for the physical causes. More I spoke him the more obvious it was his wife who killed his libido as she was a bossy, overbearing, soul crushing bitch, was the cause of his libido and ED issues. He was also under a lot of stress as his business was failing. I recommend couples counseling. After some sessions he finally woke up to the fact she was the source of the problems and they split up. He's a good looking guy and his libido returned and ED gone soon as he found a GF.

I'm not saying this applies to anyone in this thread. The point being, external and internal psych issues can and will directly impact a man's libido with or without ED, that often develops along with the lack of libido. If no physical causes found, look elsewhere for the causes.


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[SixHouse]

Not to be cruel and such, but I have always maintained you take say a 70 year old man in decent shape with no libido , with a 70 year old out of shape wife he's not physically attracted to, and put a 25 year old attractive girl in front of him, and it's astounding how fast that libido returns. Knew a guy recently who'd lost all libido for his wife of 5 years, which also resulted in ED. He was in great shape, 45, good hormones, etc. He spent years looking for the physical causes. More I spoke him the more obvious it was his wife who killed his libido as she was a bossy, overbearing, soul crushing bitch, was the cause of his libido and ED issues. He was also under a lot of stress as his business was failing. I recommend couples counseling. After some sessions he finally woke up to the fact she was the source of the problems and they split up. He's a good looking guy and his libido returned and ED gone soon as he found a GF.

I'm not saying this applies to anyone in this thread. The point being, external and internal psych issues can and will directly impact a man's libido with or without ED, that often develops along with the lack of libido. If no physical causes found, look elsewhere for the causes.

.

Thanks for being blunt. I'm someone who is very in tune with myself, both physically and mentally. Also, since we're being blunt, my wife is a cover model who like girls... and likes to bring them home I assure you that in terms of psychology and "being turned on," I'm not lacking stimulation. I'm lacking desire (almost definitely psychological), but more importantly I'm lacking the ability to get and maintain an erection, even with Viagra. When I am able, my penile sensitivity is such that I can't have an orgasm. So if I do have psych issues they surely stem from physical issues. If the physical issues would go away my psych issues will vanish, that I'm sure of.

Lots and lots of guys reporting the same exact symptoms. Specifically, no libido, ed issues, and lost sensitivity from long term trt. HCG is suppoed to help/fix the sensitivity issue, but for me it has not at 500iu 2x week. That's why I asked if maybe I should increase to 3x week like I am now doing with the testosterone. Any thoughts on that?

 

[Saul]

Will makes an important distinction. For me, loss of libido means I am not interested in sex with anyone and even looking at a picture of a naked woman is not arousing. That is different than not wanting to have sex with a particular person, such as your wife. Even when I was young, some hotties were unattractive to me due to their personality or something else about them, but I still had libido because I wanted to hook up with their friend or someone at the party.

 

[S1W]

Man SixHouse - sorry to hear all of this. After several years, I can't imagine the frustration. Your posts and a few others scratched a nerve.

I'm in the same camp as you and several others in this thread. With the exception of the honeymoon period immediately after starting TRT, I can't say I feel any better. Perhaps some better workouts etc just after starting. But now, I feel the same as I always did, except for that now I spend lots of money on TRT, have more acne, a tight scrotum, and have to worry about injecting medication 2x per week and watching my E2 levels, and monitoring hematocrit, etc. All that might be worth it if I really felt amazing, but I don't. Sexual function has deteriorated. I have never had any sort of sensitivity issues and now I do, and that is just straight up bizarre. HCG hasn't seemed to help much. What was very mild and occasional ED pre-TRT has worsened.

Unlike you, however, I have only been on for a few months. Given the short duration of my TRT, the onset of these negative side effects has been quite noticeable and obvious. There is no sort of "well that was 8 years ago, so perhaps time is the culprit and not TRT" sort of logic that can be used. Also, my last labs were pretty solid all around - decent numbers.

Some of the things I read here and elsewhere just don't seem to jive. You will often see ED listed as a symptom for consideration for TRT, yet I have not seen much evidence that TRT effectively treats ED - and cases like ours would seem to indicate the opposite. In terms of muscle building etc, what I have gathered is that at TRT doses, healthy guys are unlikely to see any significant changes by going from say 375 TT to 750TT. I certainly haven't noticed a difference in that department. And like you, my libido has markedly decreased since TRT - TRT is something that is often touted as something that can increase libido. And my wife is still just as hot now as she was a few months ago.

The responses that someone like myself will receive to these thoughts are that you need to wait a while to get dialed in. Maybe up to a year. I think ok the negative side effects sure didn't take anywhere near that long to show up, but perhaps that is true. Just stay the course. Or that I need to find a really good TRT doc - hard to argue with that one really. So I did - found one of the more respected docs around. But then I hear from guys like you that have been trying for years, or sh1973 that has been trying for 8 years, been through multiple docs, and start to feel like maybe I'm being a sucker and that I should get out while I'm only a few months and maybe just under $1000 in.

Like you, I was "low normal" and am beginning to think that perhaps the medical establishment does actually have something figured out with those ranges. When doing my research prior to starting TRT, I read about how those ranges are basically b.s., why be at 350 when you can be at 750, I had the T levels of a 80 year old at 39, etc. But maybe younger and healthier guys that are "low normal" are not good candidates for TRT after all.

The groups I read about that really benefit from TRT seem to fall into two camps. One group that seems to benefit are guys that had a really legitimate need to start - like people whose hormones were wiped out by chemo, etc. or people who are truly hypogonadal.

The other group that seems to be happy with it are guys that are in my opinion pushing the boundaries of what might be considered TRT, going above the normal ranges and donating blood, using AIs, to deal with sides, and getting ripped. And frankly I have no problem at all with that, but as someone who is interested in more general health and well-being, that's not what I am going for.


So that's the Catch 22 I find myself in. "It can take a year or more to see results, it takes a long time, stay the course" vs "I've been trying unsuccessfully for 8 years now to get dialed in, have been shut down the whole time, and now don't know if I can come off".

 

[blitzen]

While I know little (still learning) I would agree with DHEA (can't hurt to have at least midrange levels.

And the Test ... while your T is 820 the free T is still on the lower end. With the SHBG of 40 you could probably do 2x75 instead of 3x50 but to get teh free T up (and with that some E) you need to increase your total T.

 

[sh1973]

S1W I totally agree with everything you’re saying. I’ve always thought it will get better, this doc will be better, this form of trt will be better. Unfortunately better has never came. I can tell you with absolute certainty, that I’ve never at any point on any form of TRT ever felt as good as feeling good naturally. I’m literally to the point of never having a thought about sex. I’m only 44y/o and this scares the hell out of me. My levels before starting were 440ng and I had a decent libido and energy, just some mild erectile disfunction. At the time I was working crazy hours with little rest and going through a divorce. If I could go back, I’d never have started this. One way or the other I’m going to get off, and hopefully end up ok. No way for me was TRT ever worth it.

 

[FeelingLost]

Can you tell me what your new/changed protocol is for comparison?

Protocol 1- 1 tube Testim Gel= TT 630, FT 18
Protocal 2- 3 clicks of Compounded 200 T cream, 400iu HCG x2/wk, AI .125EOD= TT350 FT 12
Protocal 3 150/week .25 M/W/F T cyp injections, 300iu HCG M/W/F, AI .125EOD

I have a consult is about 2-3 weeks waiting on bloods but in the meantime I cut my injections to .20 and I actually skipped one injection to come down faster.
I have no idea what my TT/FT is now but I feel much better and my libido is about every3 days.

DId that help SixHouse?

 

[Charliebizz]

Man SixHouse - sorry to hear all of this. After several years, I can't imagine the frustration. Your posts and a few others scratched a nerve.

I'm in the same camp as you and several others in this thread. With the exception of the honeymoon period immediately after starting TRT, I can't say I feel any better. Perhaps some better workouts etc just after starting. But now, I feel the same as I always did, except for that now I spend lots of money on TRT, have more acne, a tight scrotum, and have to worry about injecting medication 2x per week and watching my E2 levels, and monitoring hematocrit, etc. All that might be worth it if I really felt amazing, but I don't. Sexual function has deteriorated. I have never had any sort of sensitivity issues and now I do, and that is just straight up bizarre. HCG hasn't seemed to help much. What was very mild and occasional ED pre-TRT has worsened.

Unlike you, however, I have only been on for a few months. Given the short duration of my TRT, the onset of these negative side effects has been quite noticeable and obvious. There is no sort of "well that was 8 years ago, so perhaps time is the culprit and not TRT" sort of logic that can be used. Also, my last labs were pretty solid all around - decent numbers.

Some of the things I read here and elsewhere just don't seem to jive. You will often see ED listed as a symptom for consideration for TRT, yet I have not seen much evidence that TRT effectively treats ED - and cases like ours would seem to indicate the opposite. In terms of muscle building etc, what I have gathered is that at TRT doses, healthy guys are unlikely to see any significant changes by going from say 375 TT to 750TT. I certainly haven't noticed a difference in that department. And like you, my libido has markedly decreased since TRT - TRT is something that is often touted as something that can increase libido. And my wife is still just as hot now as she was a few months ago.

The responses that someone like myself will receive to these thoughts are that you need to wait a while to get dialed in. Maybe up to a year. I think ok the negative side effects sure didn't take anywhere near that long to show up, but perhaps that is true. Just stay the course. Or that I need to find a really good TRT doc - hard to argue with that one really. So I did - found one of the more respected docs around. But then I hear from guys like you that have been trying for years, or sh1973 that has been trying for 8 years, been through multiple docs, and start to feel like maybe I'm being a sucker and that I should get out while I'm only a few months and maybe just under $1000 in.

Like you, I was "low normal" and am beginning to think that perhaps the medical establishment does actually have something figured out with those ranges. When doing my research prior to starting TRT, I read about how those ranges are basically b.s., why be at 350 when you can be at 750, I had the T levels of a 80 year old at 39, etc. But maybe younger and healthier guys that are "low normal" are not good candidates for TRT after all.

The groups I read about that really benefit from TRT seem to fall into two camps. One group that seems to benefit are guys that had a really legitimate need to start - like people whose hormones were wiped out by chemo, etc. or people who are truly hypogonadal.

The other group that seems to be happy with it are guys that are in my opinion pushing the boundaries of what might be considered TRT, going above the normal ranges and donating blood, using AIs, to deal with sides, and getting ripped. And frankly I have no problem at all with that, but as someone who is interested in more general health and well-being, that's not what I am going for.


So that's the Catch 22 I find myself in. "It can take a year or more to see results, it takes a long time, stay the course" vs "I've been trying unsuccessfully for 8 years now to get dialed in, have been shut down the whole time, and now don't know if I can come off".

dude I'm in the same boat as you. I'm 35 and I've been on trt for 5 months again. And I'm on more of a roller coaster then when I was low normal. I have some strange symptoms on trt also very minor at most benefits. And same thing it's like the positives vs the work put in with protocols and blood work and medication isn't really worth it. I tried trt a few years back in my late 20s and it was the same thing. I only lasted 8 months before I went off back then I felt a lot worse then I do now but I'm still not where I wanted to be. I thought maybe trt would get me over the last hump in my health journey. But so far it seemed to set me back a little bit. Plus the mental toll it takes on me constantly thinking about this crap. I have a slightly Obsessive personality so every little symptom or feeling I get I start to wonder if it's trt or not. The body is so damn complex to try to minipulate. I've also seen through testing how it does effect other hormones. I've confirmed for me that trt lowers my already borderline low cortisol. It crushes my decent natural levels of dhea and who knows what else.

Like you im stuck in that spot so I push through and maybe I'm one step away from feeling how I want to feel or is this going to be a life long stress and constantly tinkering. Like you said if I felt a profound positive impact it would be a no brainer. Shit not even profound just a improvement

 

[Will Brink]

Thanks for being blunt.

But hopefully not offensive, a fine line there.

I'm someone who is very in tune with myself, both physically and mentally. Also, since we're being blunt, my wife is a cover model who like girls... and likes to bring them home I assure you that in terms of psychology and "being turned on," I'm not lacking stimulation. I'm lacking desire (almost definitely psychological), but more importantly I'm lacking the ability to get and maintain an erection, even with Viagra. When I am able, my penile sensitivity is such that I can't have an orgasm. So if I do have psych issues they surely stem from physical issues. If the physical issues would go away my psych issues will vanish, that I'm sure of.

The two go hand in hand. A man's ability to get, and keep, and erection is directly connected to his level of desire.

Lots and lots of guys reporting the same exact symptoms. Specifically, no libido, ed issues, and lost sensitivity from long term trt. HCG is suppoed to help/fix the sensitivity issue, but for me it has not at 500iu 2x week. That's why I asked if maybe I should increase to 3x week like I am now doing with the testosterone. Any thoughts on that?

Lots? Vast majority of guys I know started TRT to address/cure such issues. Personally, never met a man where it made it worse. For most, greatly improved the issue, for a minority it didn't help. I have yet to meet one personally where the result of TRT/HRT was ED and or loss of libido. I do see some reporting that here yes.

Anyway, it would make little physiological sense for a man with no libido and or ED to see a major difference between say small dose changes in HCG. Getting that free T up seems the best idea for a response in libido. Or, perhaps you might consider the Tri-Mix injection? There's a few threads on that and it seems to be quite successful for most users.

If it is physiological, there's something seriously missing from the information supplied, be it some med, illness (known or unknown), etc. From what I'm seeing, no libido and or ED does not make sense without some other variable to the equation not supplied. Again, this may not have any application to you, but many have depression they are not even aware of, or emotional phenomena they are not aware of, etc, and need to explore that.

- Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

 

[SixHouse]

Thanks everyone. I'm stopping everything. Follow my new thread and I'll update with progress.

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?13510-Game-over-stopping-everything-Have-a-question