Arimistane experiments/bloodwork and various questions for the TRT jedi masters

IronKnight · Jan 29, 2018

TLDR: Here is the data

Background: So basically, I just started TRT and started to feel bad around Xmas with some weird nipple sensitivity (i.e. while putting clothes on) and I got a bit worried. My visit with my endo was scheduled for today so I experimented with a few things during January until the visit:

1) 10/01/2018: Tried food (~0.5kg of broccoli/brussel sprouts x day) and removed DHEA to lower E2: negligible effect in blood work. Also increased the T dose to +50mg/week which was clearly a mistake

= E2 FAIL

2) 17/01/2018: Reduced the dose back to 100mg of Testosterone enanthate / week. Switched injection location from Belly SubQ to Delt IM. No substantial decrease in E2 BUT interesting increase in T (+100-150ng/dl of Total T just by changing from SubQ to IM)
= E2 FAIL

3) 24/01/2018: Added B5 and ALCAR for acne and nootropic effects, removed HCG in a desperate attempt to lower E2, and experimented adding 6 pills x day of this "complete anti-E" supplement from bulk powders. Ingredients:
NOTE: This is by 3 pills so I was taking twice these amounts
[TABLE="class: pureTable, width: 650"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Resveratrol 98%[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]750mg[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Indole-3-Carbinol[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]400mg[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Bladderwrack[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]400mg[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]BioPerine[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]5mg[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Vitamin D3[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]2500iu[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
= E2 FAIL

4) 29/01/2018: Added Choline and NAC as I read they might help with the liver and other cool stuff, maybe raising my SHBG (kinda lowish at 17 on my 1st check in January), added HCG back and experimented with very high doses of Arimistane, using Brawn Arimistane 30mg (90 caps bottle).

I read Arimistane has a half life of 2.5 hours in the blood stream so I spread the 12 pills during the day, taking 2 at a time every 3-4 hours. This is a very high amount of 360mg / day for only 5 days.

Interesting results:
A) E2 progress: This resulted in a decrease of 32.06% or 36.13pg/ml, so at least this one substantially worked.
B) SHBG doubled: I wanted to increase it only a little bit, could NAC and Choline do this so quickly? (taking 2g / day of each, split in my first 2 breakfasts)

29/01/2018: I then went to visit my endo, but clearly he does not have a clue as he mentioned that my E2 being over 100 was not a problem, etc. (to my shock), he was also strongly against giving me a prescription for 150mg of T / week and repeatedly asked why I want a higher T level. I said I wanted to see how I feel at 1000 total T and in the end he gave me the prescription, along with more HCG.
After a lot of back and forth, he said he cannot give me a prescription for Anastrozole because in Poland this can only be given to women who had breast cancer.

Ideas moving forward, what do you guys think?:
1) E2 issues: I want to drop at least 30kg of fat this year (aiming for ~1kg / week), but until I reach 15% body fat or thereabouts I clearly need an AI for now. Anastrozole is not an option (cannot be prescribed to men where I live), so I am left with Arimistane. Aiming for a safer dose @ 6 pills / day (180mg / day) until I measure how things are going next week. I will leave my T dose at 100mg/week until E2 is under control, then I will try to raise to 150mg/week to see how I feel there. Any safety concerns with Arimistane (I noticed NO prolactin increase, and a mild cortisol increase -was expecting a decrease in cortisol from it though-)

2) SHBG: Can anybody speculate what is going on here? during TRT SHBG increased to 37.8 from 17 (before TRT: 21)

3) DHEA/Thyroid: My DHEA is on the low end and my Thyroid numbers look OK, I feel without energy many times, crashing and needing a nap to move forward. This should of course be rampant E2, but could supplementing DHEA improve this? Has anybody experienced increased energy levels from DHEA?

4) LDL Cholesterol: This is starting to look very scary to me, and I think E2 probably has something to do with this. Trying to add B3 soon (when it arrives home) but my understanding is TRT should lower LDL Cholesterol, however, in my case it has increased substantially, is this likely because of being 1 month with E2 > 100?

5) Hematrocrit: I plan to try to donate blood this week to increase my safety margin.

re How I feel:
The first 2 weeks of TRT were awesome, then the effect faded away and this last month with high E2 has been a mess, with difficulty focusing, mild depression and still not sure why I put on weight on one of my fat loss weeks. I am starting to feel much better now that E2 is starting to approach a more reasonable range (aiming for 28-35, which is around where I was before I started TRT). Please note that I don't have a sensitive assay here, nor do I have access to free estradiol testing. However, I measured 28-31 on that test before TRT, so I am hoping that is somehow OK

Any feedback, comments, criticism or ideas would be very welcome, thank you in advance

Vince Carter · Jan 29, 2018

SHBG goes where it wants and you have to play it where it lies...if that makes sense.

IronKnight · Feb 3, 2018

Vince Carter said:
SHBG goes where it wants and you have to play it where it lies...if that makes sense.

That makes sense as a general statement.
However, in my particular case (i.e. please see data posted above), I believe this is due to the elevated Estrogen:

Before TRT my SHBG was only 21
2 months after TRT started SHBG was 17 (a decrease, which makes sense)
After 1 month of crazy high Estradiol, SHBG goes to 37 (!)

This assumption goes in line with the following:

Some of the conditions that can lead to increased SHBG, include:
[...]

3.
Elevated Estradiol levels
from various causes such as increased body fat, excess alcohol usage, liver damage, exposure to Estrogen, medications and other agents.

Source: this website/showthread.php?3484-How-to-lower-your-sex-hormone-binding-globulin
-cannot post links yet

-

I'm throwing 6g of Omega3 and 6 x 30mg Arimistane pills (total 180mg / day, spread every 3 hours or so during the deal) for this next round of 10 days before I test again, I expect:
- Another E2 decrease of about ~30pg/ml
- Improvements in LDL cholesterol (which increased by 40%, probably due to the high E2)
- Some added safety making blood a bit thinner until I donate blood (most likely on February 16th), since Hematocrit is already at 52 and might get a bit higher.

Once I get E2 under control I'll have to figure out an Arimistane dose that is low enough to keep new aromatase enzymes in check

Will Brink · Feb 3, 2018

IronKnight said:
Ideas moving forward, what do you guys think?:
1) E2 issues: I want to drop at least 30kg of fat this year (aiming for ~1kg / week), but until I reach 15% body fat or thereabouts I clearly need an AI for now.

If your BF% is that high where you need to lose 30KG to make 15% BF, that's where your focus needs to be. All the OTC supps you're taking, etc will not offset that by much inf any to make a major difference, whether it's E2 or SHBG. I'd make that your sole mission for the next year + and see how that impacts your numbers.

Cenamar · Feb 3, 2018

I agree with Will. it doesn't make sense to pursue pharmaceutical techniques when the glaring monster in the room can be fixed naturally.

IronKnight · Feb 4, 2018

Cenamar said:
I agree with Will. it doesn't make sense to pursue pharmaceutical techniques when the glaring monster in the room can be fixed naturally.

For the record: My wife had an E2 level of 80 last time she checked, less than me in the last month

Please see numbers above:
Only 1 month with E2 at > 100 = My LDL cholesterol increased by close to 50%, if I used nothing to control E2 until I lose 30KG of fat, I would wreck havoc on my system and perhaps face even gyno. I simply cannot wait until I lose the fat to get E2 under control, that's like saying "nobody should use an AI even if E2 is over 100".

I'm with Will too, and losing fat is a top focus for me this year, this is however a very slow process (maybe 8 months if I'm lucky), so the plan is:

1) Get E2 under control NOW, this is something that must be addressed immediately (just do a search on scientific evidence on health issues due to elevated E2 in men, the list of nasty effects is plentiful)
2) Keep losing body fat and THEN see if I can drop (or at least reduce) the OTC supp to control E2

I'll keep updating this thread as new data / progress comes, but based on the excellent results with Arimistane I expect E2 to drop into a more sane 40-50pg/ml level next week, will measure and adjust from there.

Will Brink · Feb 5, 2018

IronKnight said:
For the record: My wife had an E2 level of 80 last time she checked, less than me in the last month

Please see numbers above:
Only 1 month with E2 at > 100 = My LDL cholesterol increased by close to 50%, if I used nothing to control E2 until I lose 30KG of fat, I would wreck havoc on my system and perhaps face even gyno.

Wreck havoc? You'd likely see a drop in LDL and E2 fairly quickly with fat loss. What did you do since you started the thread to lose fat? How much fat have you lost since you became aware of the elevated E2?

IronKnight said:
I simply cannot wait until I lose the fat to get E2 under control, that's like saying "nobody should use an AI even if E2 is over 100".

I don't disagree per se, but you have indicated the doc is not willing to prescribe what would be effective, the OTC stuff will have minimal to no real impact, and the biggest driver of E2 levels is likely your BF%, so by process of elimination, that's what needs to be focused on.

IronKnight · Mar 29, 2018

@Will created a separate thread to discuss my battle with fat loss, feel free to chime in there.

I will update this thread with more information in the next couple of weeks but so far I learned the following:
- My Body fat as of today is estimated to be 29.6% (5% and 11kg of fat less than 3 months ago, but again, please see the other thread for that)
- Anastrozole can be prescribed to men off-label in Poland, I got the prescription from another doc in another city, unfortunately this other doc was also not well versed on TRT.... [ 4/4 TRT doctor FAIL so far

]
- 1mg of Anastrozole EOD is not enough to keep my E2 in check yet (cannot go under 50), will share results once I finish gathering the data.
- I found the effects of Arimistane to be additive to Anastrozole so I am experimenting if I can lower E2 further without increasing the Anastrozole dosage beyond 1mg EOD. If this works, I might buy more Arimistane as it could be helpful to provide further precission to Anastrozole dosage.
- High doses of Arimistane cause diarrhoea and later learned that it is best on an empty stomach so I did "rounds of Arimistane" on my fasting days, taking pills every 3 hours or so.

I would love ideas to improve the rate of my fat loss on the fat loss thread, thank you

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...y-recomposition-challenge&p=102007#post102007

Will update this with more intel once I gather the data as promised, this just takes time, but the update will come

lowe2sucks · Mar 29, 2018

1mg anastrozole every other day and arimistane sound like big trouble brother.. I can't tell you how badly it messed up my life and my health

Nelson Vergel · Mar 29, 2018

I may have missed it, but are you using the right (LC/MS) estradiol test?

IronKnight · Apr 8, 2018

Nelson Vergel said:
I may have missed it, but are you using the right (LC/MS) estradiol test?

Right now I am living in Poland and that test does not exist here (I did search hard, didn't find it. Seems like it only exists in the US). However, I have noticed that:
1) My baseline levels before TRT were 28 and 31 in that same test (measured twice, 3 weeks apart)
2) I don't feel right with levels above 40 in that test, high E2 defeats TRT for me: With lack of energy, motivation, drive, moody as hell, weakish erections, every little problem seems like impossible/too much work to solve, etc.

3) With levels over 50 I'm very moody and it's basically very hard to keep up with me as I'm ranting all the time xD
4) I'm recording how I feel, along with body composition and weekly bloodwork tests (I want to get this sorted ASAP, and it's costing me a lot of money as I'm doing all this privately), the best I felt on TRT so far was with E2 at 36.

So, my baseline levels (before TRT) interestingly fall within the sweet spot for most people of 25-35, and my elevated E2 symptoms correspond to the blood work I'm getting. Maybe the test is 5% off or whatever, but it's definitely not completely useless to me as it's the only objective data point I have for E2 and I don't want to roll on subjective feelings alone.

lowe2sucks said:
1mg anastrozole every other day and arimistane sound like big trouble brother.. I can't tell you how badly it messed up my life and my health

I know the dose is high, but I'm still at 29% body fat (and have 33kg of fat left in my body, from 45kg before), already lost 12kg of fat in a little more than 3 months, I'm hoping to lower anastrozole to 0.5 as soon as I can, and hopefully eventually ditching it completely, by:
1) Losing body fat, this is a very slow process, even at my record-pace of 1kg of fat / week. I got 23+ kg of fat to lose to get to 12% body fat. Hope to get there by October, so far I'm on track.
2) Will give Boron a shot soon, again validating with blood work whether it lowers my E2 or not
3) Daily injections will come very soon next, probably starting in April
4) As above, I'm looking at blood work weekly, I will have the chance to adjust quickly if E2 goes too low (which right now seems just a fantasy

). In other words: I'm not blindly trying 1mg of Anastrozole EOD to only check blood work 4 or more weeks after, which is imho exactly why everybody who tanked their E2 did so (and exactly what I'm trying to avoid via weekly bloodwork)

IronKnight · Aug 26, 2018

Still using anastrozole @ approx. 18% body fat now, but only 0.25mg 3 times x week now. Aiming for 12% or single digits if it needs to be now, then will see if I can avoid Anastrozol altogether or will experiment with Calcium D-Glucarate.

Current TRT protocol:

150mg T enanthate 3 times x week: M/W/F morning
0.25mg Anastrozol 3 times x week: Monday morning, Wednesday evening, Saturday morning
HCG: 390IUs 3 times x week, together with T injection (adding ovitrelle drops on top of pre-loaded T syringe)
NOTE: I am trying to lower Body % to see if I can avoid Anastrozol

Latest blood work at this lower body fat %: