Arimidex discontinuation update

[Shad0w]

We've been around the block several times regarding Jay and Nichols' (and rouziers) claims.

Please read, and don't start another flame war.

Search results for query: jay campbell AI

Search results for query: Nichols AI

Well those claims resonate with me and the symptoms I experienced from achieving “optimal” e2 levels left me feeling like I had a chronic disease or something. Just saying, I followed many peoples advice on ai’s for the past 8 months on trt and felt awful until weaning off. So maybe sharing my experience will help some other people.

Also my trt never had stability with ai use, which seems to be a common theme among people that use ai’s. Everything smoothed out after dropping them.

You all do what works for you, but I’m just throwing all this out there for someone that may be experiencing what I went through.

 

[Shad0w]

Believe what you want, but I have the labs to show effective reduction of E2 from 0.0625 EOD, and it cured my symptoms. I do well in high 20's E2, but above 30 and it starts getting bad. Prior to this anastrozole dosage I was at 38.9, carrying extra bloat and cranky as hell. This dose dropped me to 25.6 Since I have experimented a little and have been dosing at 0.055, last lab E2 29 and things are pretty good.

BTW, regarding joint (and/or bone) pain, for me, the entire point is to not drop E2 that far.

Also curious what your shbg is?

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Also curious what your shbg is?

Latest 47.3

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Well those claims resonate with me and the symptoms I experienced from achieving “optimal” e2 levels left me feeling like I had a chronic disease or something. Just saying, I followed many peoples advice on ai’s for the past 8 months on trt and felt awful until weaning off. So maybe sharing my experience will help some other people.

Also my trt never had stability with ai use, which seems to be a common theme among people that use ai’s. Everything smoothed out after dropping them.

You all do what works for you, but I’m just throwing all this out there for someone that may be experiencing what I went through.

It is fine that it works for you, but leave it in the context of your own comment about everyone being individual and having individual needs in TRT. There have been major flames over several individuals insisting that no one should take AI based on Jay, Nichols, rouzier. Please read the previous threads, we just don't want yet another repeat and more locked threads. Believe me, we've been bombarded by this perspective.

 

[CoastWatcher]

It is fine that it works for you, but leave it in the context of your own comment about everyone being individual and having individual needs in TRT. There have been major flames over several individuals insisting that no one should take AI based on Jay, Nichols, rouzier. Please read the previous threads, we just don't want yet another repeat and more locked threads. Believe me, we've been bombarded by this perspective.

@Blackhawk captures the situation nicely with this post. Let's all tread respectfully.

 

[user_joe]

Well those claims resonate with me and the symptoms I experienced from achieving “optimal” e2 levels left me feeling like I had a chronic disease or something. Just saying, I followed many peoples advice on ai’s for the past 8 months on trt and felt awful until weaning off. So maybe sharing my experience will help some other people.

Also my trt never had stability with ai use, which seems to be a common theme among people that use ai’s. Everything smoothed out after dropping them.

You all do what works for you, but I’m just throwing all this out there for someone that may be experiencing what I went through.

I’ve had the same experience for what it’s worth. A lot of what I thought was high e2 just fixed itself by waiting it out.

 

[tmaxey1]

Maybe any slight change in hormones, up or down, will cause water retention.

That’s just not how it works. We all have natural slight hormonal changes throughout the day and weeks. Insulin, sleep, stress all cause hormonal changes.

The reality is there is nothing about slightly lowering estrogen levels that leads to water retention. Water retention can change with sodium ect. But there is no evidence or science behind .125 AI or reduced E2 that would cause water retention at all. None.

 

[Joey786]

Problems with cortisol can cause water retention. I’ve experienced this. Anyway, the ai isn’t helping you. No need to take it.

 

[Tman]

I have a real hard problem with this .125mg Anastrozole dosing. It's a gimic in that guys expect an AI, the big three (Cyp/HCG/AI) in TRT but it's such a miniscule dose that it's really not going to be all that effective and I'm just not going to believe those that say that they had elevated E symptoms and took .125mg and suddenly pissed out several pounds of water and then had low E joint paint.

Believe it...I have blood test evidence... .125 drops my E2 sensitive 50 and the effect takes about an hour

 

[Tman]

That’s just not how it works. We all have natural slight hormonal changes throughout the day and weeks. Insulin, sleep, stress all cause hormonal changes.

The reality is there is nothing about slightly lowering estrogen levels that leads to water retention. Water retention can change with sodium ect. But there is no evidence or science behind .125 AI or reduced E2 that would cause water retention at all. None.

He could be confusing general water retention with edema. When my E2 is high 20s low 30s, I have swelling in my hands and lower extremities. When my E2 is 40-50, I do not. I know...it sounds crazy, but its real. I've spent a fortune on E2 testing through discounted labs trying to nail this down.

 

[BradWI]

I take .125 twice a week. If I drop it as a test, how many weeks might it take for E2 to symptoms to appear?

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

What's convincing for me is that Dr. Nichols had used an AI, even while on Dr. Rouzier's protocol of scrotal applied, compounded 20% T cream. It was Angie Nichols, a nurse, who kept on her husband to drop the AI and as most of us heard him say, overall well being, erections and orgasms markedly improved. Same for Jay Campbell on that same protocol. They both have high E2, also. Dr. Rouzier also discusses two cardiac surgeon on T who added daily estradiol tablets, losing weight, improving lipids and overall well being, with the E2 of one doctor at 300 pg! But, I don't doubt men who say an AI helps. I don't know the 'why' of this contradiction.

I haven't taken anymore anastrazole for three or four weeks. However, I also have regularly taken vitamins A, D & E and all of them are anti-estrogenic to a degree. I stopped them, too, only taking K2/Mk4. For me, nothing to lose by trying a contrary approach. Right now, don't feel worse nor better, though strong nocturnal erections have been returning.

 

[tmaxey1]

What's convincing for me is that Dr. Nichols had used an AI, even while on Dr. Rouzier's protocol of scrotal applied, compounded 20% T cream. It was Angie Nichols, a nurse, who kept on her husband to drop the AI and as most of us heard him say, overall well being, erections and orgasms markedly improved. Same for Jay Campbell on that same protocol. They both have high E2, also. Dr. Rouzier also discusses two cardiac surgeon on T who added daily estradiol tablets, losing weight, improving lipids and overall well being, with the E2 of one doctor at 300 pg! But, I don't doubt men who say an AI helps. I don't know the 'why' of this contradiction.

I haven't taken anymore anastrazole for three or four weeks. However, I also have regularly taken vitamins A, D & E and all of them are anti-estrogenic to a degree. I stopped them, too, only taking K2/Mk4. For me, nothing to lose by trying a contrary approach. Right now, don't feel worse nor better, though strong nocturnal erections have been returning.

You can always find people to claim anything. Some say they felt so much better without an AI and they just let their E2 run into levels not even a woman would want. Some people have become so obsessed with being anti AI that they convince themselves that this micro dose of AI “crashed” their E2 and now the can’t get up off the couch.

Yet no one can show a single study or science behind anything harmful from taking a dosage of AI that keeps your E2 within a healthy normal male range.

Studies have shown harmful effects of high E2. But non show harmful effects of keeping E2 to a healthy level.

This Dr Rouzier character speaks in such a demeaning sarcastic way and he clearly ignores logic in his argument that I have written him off as an attention seeking quack.

I don’t wish to walk around bloated from estrogen. I didn’t get on TRT to have estrogen levels in excess of what they give a man who wishes to become transgender. I’m not interested in being able to breast feed my children.

I think we need to keep expectation in check from Testosterone therapy. It’s ok to sometimes feel tired or down or sore ect. It’s like people need something to blame for not being able to walk around feeling perfectly happy and full of non stop energy. There are other factors that shouldn’t be ignored. Diet, exercise, sleep, and let’s face facts. We are getting older. Aging isn’t fun.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

I agree that on many men's forums, the debate about E2 levels is ongoing and sometimes, contentious. I'm no bomb thrower. As I wrote; I don't know the 'why' of some men doing better with above lab range estradiol, or even an extraordinarily high level. Perhaps biochemical outliers. Another doctor, Henry Lindner, an interventional endocrinologist, worked with Dr. Rouzier and he, too, doesn't monitor estradiol and backs up his reasons with clinical abstracts. I think it's a legitimate, important, debate/discussion.

As for me, I'm a biochemical outlier because I have treatment resistant bipolar illness, along with non-restorative sleep. I've seen some of the best doctors in the US, who are known, worldwide, for their research. They don't know how to help me. I'm screwed 12 ways and Sunday and I'm desperate to restore some level of functionality, including sexual. Dr. Rouzier might be far out of the mainstream but mainstream hasn't worked for me. I've got to try.

 

[tmaxey1]

I agree that on many men's forums, the debate about E2 levels is ongoing and sometimes, contentious. I'm no bomb thrower. As I wrote; I don't know the 'why' of some men doing better with above lab range estradiol, or even an extraordinarily high level. Perhaps biochemical outliers. Another doctor, Henry Lindner, an interventional endocrinologist, worked with Dr. Rouzier and he, too, doesn't monitor estradiol and backs up his reasons with clinical abstracts. I think it's a legitimate, important, debate/discussion.

As for me, I'm a biochemical outlier because I have treatment resistant bipolar illness, along with non-restorative sleep. I've seen some of the best doctors in the US, who are known, worldwide, for their research. They don't know how to help me. I'm screwed 12 ways and Sunday and I'm desperate to restore some level of functionality, including sexual. Dr. Rouzier might be far out of the mainstream but mainstream hasn't worked for me. I've got to try.

I can certainly understand your reasoning behind it. Honestly many men won't need an AI because they are not sensitive to estrogen the way some are. I have been prone to gyno and water retention with elevated estrogen since puberty. I believe it to be irresponsible for guys like Jay Cambell and Dr Rouzier to make these factually inaccurate statements about AI's and estrogen. These guys are going over the top and convincing people (without an ounce of proof) that AI's in any dose are bad. They are willfully ignoring that a percentage of men will develop female sexual characteristics with these high estrogen levels. If they just warned people of the risk of too low E2 then it would be a different conversation. But to make these blanket statements that taking any dose of an AI is harmful with zero proof of this is irresponsible at best.

Very well respected doctors like Dr Rand McClain are on record talking about how he has given patients an AI and they have shed tons of water weight ect. Excessive water retention can cause high blood pressure which does real harm.

I hope you can find the recipe for happiness you seek. I was born lucky not having natural depression issues. I would imagine that is your number 1 concern and something I hope you can fight through. I'v heard doctors are now using Ketamine for treatment resistant depression. Of course Johnson and Johnson has a new patent on the nasal spray and wants about $17k for a drug rave kids have been pushing for $40.

 

[user_joe]

I can certainly understand your reasoning behind it. Honestly many men won't need an AI because they are not sensitive to estrogen the way some are. I have been prone to gyno and water retention with elevated estrogen since puberty. I believe it to be irresponsible for guys like Jay Cambell and Dr Rouzier to make these factually inaccurate statements about AI's and estrogen. These guys are going over the top and convincing people (without an ounce of proof) that AI's in any dose are bad. They are willfully ignoring that a percentage of men will develop female sexual characteristics with these high estrogen levels. If they just warned people of the risk of too low E2 then it would be a different conversation. But to make these blanket statements that taking any dose of an AI is harmful with zero proof of this is irresponsible at best.

Very well respected doctors like Dr Rand McClain are on record talking about how he has given patients an AI and they have shed tons of water weight ect. Excessive water retention can cause high blood pressure which does real harm.

I hope you can find the recipe for happiness you seek. I was born lucky not having natural depression issues. I would imagine that is your number 1 concern and something I hope you can fight through. I'v heard doctors are now using Ketamine for treatment resistant depression. Of course Johnson and Johnson has a new patent on the nasal spray and wants about $17k for a drug rave kids have been pushing for $40.

Actually they are sharing first hand experience. They are claiming estrogen is beneficial, and therefore more optimal to not suppress.

I’ve done my own fair share of experimentation with dosing and ai usage. It’s been right at 2 months now since I quit taking any ai, and this is the best protocol I’ve had.

 

[Systemlord]

Maybe any slight change in hormones, up or down, will cause water retention.

This is my experience, whenever I start a new protocol, my stomach bloats up as estrogen climbs peaking in the evenings, then when I get closer to 6 weeks, the bloating subsides. If I take an AI and knock estrogen low, then stop the AI, estrogen starts climbing rapidly and bloating is insane.

It's a vicious cycle.

Also probably more uncommon is enanthate caused me extreme bloating where cypionate doesn't.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

Your experience speaks to 'not one size fits all'. Maybe the truth of estradiol management is somewhere in the 'middle', but finding that spot seems to be elusive in the research setting and doctors do the best they can with the available and sometimes, contradictory, research.

As for managing bipolar illness & sleep problems, much more difficult and challenging. I'm in contact with a researcher/clinician at the NIMH who also has a limited psychiatry practice, me being one of her patients when my wife and I lived in Maryland. She was willing to try anything as long as I was okay with it, based on my own research. Just e-mailed her about low dose psychostimulants to help with sleep. Also wondering about sub q Ketamine. I need to see if it's a possibility. Today, started in drinking tea several times a day in order to establish if increase in dopamine from caffeine and sugar will make me more stable, along with improving my sleep. Being a lab rat is all I've known for 14 years. It's my way of life. I just want to sleep soundly and have lots of sex . Not asking for much, right?

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

Actually they are sharing first hand experience. They are claiming estrogen is beneficial, and therefore more optimal to not suppress.

I’ve done my own fair share of experimentation with dosing and ai usage. It’s been right at 2 months now since I quit taking any ai, and this is the best protocol I’ve had.

I like to hear everybodys experience. I certainly don't know or profess to know whether being ai free or low dosing is beneficial. Your experience seems to validate the ai free position and other men need to take a low or moderate dose. We're all part of a big scientific experiment and IMO, that's good! Our doctors learn from us and, for some of us, we learn from our doctors.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

user_joe, what's your dose/protocol of T?