Alternatives to HCG for preventing testicular atrophy.

[BJE]

HCG has worked well for me to keep my testicles up to size. However, it has gotten more expensive and sometimes unavailable. Is there any other strategy to keep them large?

 

[CKO]

Not really if you're on trt. Kind of works options: Gonadorelin which requires frequent injections. Lower dose trt with enclomiphene (100mg or less a week). Test cream or oral test with enclomiphene. That's all I can think of.

 

[Seagal]

It's counterintuitive but on the "more is better" protocol I don't need HCG, no visible shrinkage.

 

[BJE]

It's counterintuitive but on the "more is better" protocol I don't need HCG, no visible shrinkage.

What is the more is better protocol?

 

[Seagal]

What is the more is better protocol?

Right, it's sarcasm. So far for me the best dose in terms of mental well-being and mental performance is about double the natural upper FT level. It happened to be also a level where my ejaculation volume is back to normal without HCG and I didn't notice any testicles shrinkage compared to using HCG.

I'm not claiming that this is the way to go, I'm just sharing how things have worked for me. I'm not saying "more is better", but maybe one should not be intimidated or scared off by some folks here, and experiment also with a higher dose when it comes to therapeutic TRT.

 

[JmarkH]

I ordered HCG from ReliableRX at very reasonable prices, and it is the real pharmaceutical product. No need to look for something else.

 

[BJE]

Right, it's sarcasm. So far for me the best dose in terms of mental well-being and mental performance is about double the natural upper FT level. It happened to be also a level where my ejaculation volume is back to normal without HCG and I didn't notice any testicles shrinkage compared to using HCG.

I'm not claiming that this is the way to go, I'm just sharing how things have worked for me. I'm not saying "more is better", but maybe one should not be intimidated or scared off by some folks here, and experiment also with a higher dose when it comes to therapeutic TRT.

At a higher testosterone level have you noticed problems which might be associated with high DHT such as prostate problems or hair loss?

 

[Seagal]

At a higher testosterone level have you noticed problems which might be associated with high DHT such as prostate problems or hair loss?

I noticed accelerated hair loss already at mid normal range levels. Many men that start/need TRT are at their mid end forties and it seems that many men at that age tend see more hair loss naturally... I have had no prostate issues. DHT is difficult to assess. In my opinion it's better when the body gets enough raw material (T) to produce DHT where it is needed instead of adding a DHT derivative.

 

[Cataceous]

.... I'm not saying "more is better", but maybe one should not be intimidated or scared off by some folks here, and experiment also with a higher dose when it comes to therapeutic TRT.

Let me fill in the nuances. The problem with more-is-better thinking is that it leads to high starting doses and going up from there when there are problems. The victims of this mentality never get a chance to experience a range of physiological testosterone levels. I have argued that there are evolutionary reasons for the normal range to be preferred; these have led to the best reproductive success, which should be a reasonable proxy for overall success in life. The low-and-slow approach to TRT is not a new concept—the late Dr. Crisler was promoting it many years ago.

In any case, the point is that there is not any strident objection to experimentation with modestly higher testosterone levels. It's just that this experimentation should occur after gathering experience with lower levels—those attained with daily testosterone absorption in the range of 4-9 mg. With a frame of reference established you can better evaluate if higher doses are helping or hurting. In addition, there should be well-informed consent. TRT, particularly at higher doses, is disruptive of the hormonal milieu; it can perturb upwards of 20 other hormones. Being able to reduce some side effects with supraphysiological dosing does not imply that a good hormonal balance has been restored.

 

[Seagal]

The low-and-slow approach to TRT is not a new concept—the late Dr. Crisler was promoting it many years ago.

I never disagreed with that. I myself started low, and that has been my advice to anyone needing to start TRT.

 

[Cataceous]

I never disagreed with that. I myself started low, and that has been my advice to anyone needing to start TRT.

That's the important context for the guy who thinks that the 100 mg TC/week he's on is a low starting dose.

 

[BJE]

I noticed accelerated hair loss already at mid normal range levels. Many men that start/need TRT are at their mid end forties and it seems that many men at that age tend see more hair loss naturally... I have had no prostate issues. DHT is difficult to assess. In my opinion it's better when the body gets enough raw material (T) to produce DHT where it is needed instead of adding a DHT derivative.

I asked because I know that my DHT level is high and I do have issues with BPH.

 

[BJE]

Let me fill in the nuances. The problem with more-is-better thinking is that it leads to high starting doses and going up from there when there are problems. The victims of this mentality never get a chance to experience a range of physiological testosterone levels. I have argued that there are evolutionary reasons for the normal range to be preferred; these have led to the best reproductive success, which should be a reasonable proxy for overall success in life. The low-and-slow approach to TRT is not a new concept—the late Dr. Crisler was promoting it many years ago.

In any case, the point is that there is not any strident objection to experimentation with modestly higher testosterone levels. It's just that this experimentation should occur after gathering experience with lower levels—those attained with daily testosterone absorption in the range of 4-9 mg. With a frame of reference established you can better evaluate if higher doses are helping or hurting. In addition, there should be well-informed consent. TRT, particularly at higher doses, is disruptive of the hormonal milieu; it can perturb upwards of 20 other hormones. Being able to reduce some side effects with supraphysiological dosing does not imply that a good hormonal balance has been restored.

I’ve been on TRT for about 12 years. I started low and finally got up to a level that normalized my symptoms. After I felt like things were going well I began but by bit lowering my dose to find the minimum dose that still seemed to resolve my issues. Then if I notice symptoms I bump it back up a bit. I am currently using 140mg test cyp per week divided into two doses. Along with that I’m injecting 300UI HCG twice per week. I’m not sure how much testosterone the HCG adds. If I quit the HCG due to cost and availability as I have done in the past I’ll have to bump up my testosterone dose.

I will say that the most significant thing I’ve noticed with TRT is increased libido and sexual performance. However, if I get my testosterone level too high my sex drive becomes almost uncontrollable.

 

[BJE]

I ordered HCG from ReliableRX at very reasonable prices, and it is the real pharmaceutical product. No need to look for something else.

The price looks reasonable. What has your experience been with it? I see that it comes in 5,000UI vials rather than the 10,000IU Pregnyl vials. The information says to use immediately or as directed by your doctor. Do you use it all at once or do you do multiple doses from a vial and how long do you store the mixed vials?

 

[JmarkH]

I've bought 10k iu, and 2k iu. Buy your own Bac water and don't bother with the vial that's included.

 

[Dog427]

At a higher testosterone level have you noticed problems which might be associated with high DHT such as prostate problems or hair loss?

I use higher levels for years. No hair loss or prostate issues. However, everyone is different.

 

[Forty2]

Let me fill in the nuances. The problem with more-is-better thinking is that it leads to high starting doses and going up from there when there are problems. The victims of this mentality never get a chance to experience a range of physiological testosterone levels. I have argued that there are evolutionary reasons for the normal range to be preferred; these have led to the best reproductive success, which should be a reasonable proxy for overall success in life. The low-and-slow approach to TRT is not a new concept—the late Dr. Crisler was promoting it many years ago.

In any case, the point is that there is not any strident objection to experimentation with modestly higher testosterone levels. It's just that this experimentation should occur after gathering experience with lower levels—those attained with daily testosterone absorption in the range of 4-9 mg. With a frame of reference established you can better evaluate if higher doses are helping or hurting. In addition, there should be well-informed consent. TRT, particularly at higher doses, is disruptive of the hormonal milieu; it can perturb upwards of 20 other hormones. Being able to reduce some side effects with supraphysiological dosing does not imply that a good hormonal balance has been restored.

How many of those 20 hormones can you name, Cat?

 

[Forty2]

I ordered HCG from ReliableRX at very reasonable prices, and it is the real pharmaceutical product. No need to look for something else.

Which brand have you found to be most reliable and do they ask you to send the a copy of your prescription?

 

[JmarkH]

I've used both ZyhCG and Sifasi. They have health questions and a place to send a prescription but you don't have to. I've never had a box diverted by customs. I've bought acne creams, antibiotics, nebivolol, metformin and other such common medications.

 

[Cataceous]

How many of those 20 hormones [affected by TRT] can you name, Cat?

When you asked last year I came up with 18: pregnenolone, DHEA, progesterone, kisspeptin, GnRH, LH, FSH, estradiol, prolactin, DHT, hepcidin, androstenedione, androstenediol, cortisol, TSH, T3, T4, rT3...

To this we might be able to add dynorphin, neurokinin B, GnIH, ACTH, aldosterone and others. In some cases the pathways are less direct, but influence is still possible.

It's worth mentioning that Dr. Mark Gordon says it's 35 hormones in the video linked here [around 15:30]. From this we might add allopregnanolone and GABA to the list.