Advise needed: after 6 months enclomiphene 12.5mg ED

[Canes407]

I'm gonna start on Enclomiphene myself shortly. Been on the TRT/HCG combo for 6+ months and never noticed much difference (outside of some strength gains in the gym) to warrant the annoyance of pinning myself indefinitely.

I am a bit younger than you though so maybe that changes things, but symptoms for going on TRT were pretty similar.

 

[aneuman]

I just got 3 boxes of pregnyl 3 weeks ago, it’s been discontinued in the past few weeks? or is it on back order?

Steve 78,

I think you got it right. it has not been discontinued, but backordered while the manufacturer fights some gray-market issues (as I understand it).

If you don't mid me asking, where did you get it? I'll be willing to try Pregnyl given everybody says is very effective. How much did you pay for it? Is it 10,000 units?

Thanks,

A.N

 

[Steve78]

Steve 78,

I think you got it right. it has not been discontinued, but backordered while the manufacturer fights some gray-market issues (as I understand it).

If you don't mid me asking, where did you get it? I'll be willing to try Pregnyl given everybody says is very effective. How much did you pay for it? Is it 10,000 units?

Thanks,

A.N

Fairview pharmacy and optimum pharmacy, roughly 120 dollars for 10,000 units

 

[aneuman]

Fairview pharmacy and optimum pharmacy, roughly 120 dollars for 10,000 units

Yep. I'm currently ordering from Optum. They are carrying Pregnyl for $188.75 I think.

Thanks for the info.

 

[aneuman]

Yep. I'm currently ordering from Optum. They are carrying Pregnyl for $188.75 I think.

Thanks for the info.

Correcting myself. Optum's Pregnyl is 118.90, A+ Pharmacy carries Pregnyl too for 187.50

 

[jacb]

I see that Worldwide Pharmacies are offering Pregnyl LINK at $40 + Tax for 5000 iu.

 

[jacb]

It seems to me that Pregnyl is made by at least two companies.

Eg:

Orgon in Canada Link NDC 0052-0315-10

Merk & Co USA. Where it is actually manufactured by Baxter Oncology GmbH, Halle 33790 in Germany Link

It also seems that Merck Sharp & Dohme (MSD) and Schering-Plough all have product out there.

Is this all the same product under different Labels?

 

[TRicker]

I see that Worldwide Pharmacies are offering Pregnyl LINK at $40 + Tax for 5000 iu.

Have you or anyone else reading this ever use Worldwide Pharmacy?
Is it similar to Reliablerx, as in you don't need a prescription?

 

[jacb]

Have you or anyone else reading this ever use Worldwide Pharmacy?
Is it similar to Reliablerx, as in you don't need a prescription?

I used them and all went well, exactly as advertised in terms of delivery and product. If you want more reassurance (I did) contact Mike. Re the prescription that changes evidently depending on where you live .. ask Mike.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

well guys,

I went to a different andrologist today. He told me that I should not try TRT as my testicles work perfectly well (TT=1183) and I have tried all the tricks in the book, but if hCG worked well, I should try it again and play with the dosage. He said anything from 500 to 3000 IU a week is fine. He'll have his secretary call me to obtain hCG. I don't know what the prove would be.

It seems that it's not all about testosterone, there's something hCG does somewhere in the body (brain, testicles, penis, or wherever) for those who respond that achieves something that testosterone cannot do.

He told me that my levels are typically achieved only through exogenous testosterone, not naturally. He asked several times if I took anything else, I said no, only Enclomiphene Citrate 12.5 mg ED for 6 months. In is opinon, enclomiphene and clomid have similar effect and the "estrogenic" effect has to do more with dosage than anything else. I have no opinion in this.

So I'm eagerly awaiting his call for an hCG prescription and restarting hCG mono therapy, this time Im planing to start with 500 IU twice a week and see how it goes.

I'd appreciate if anyone has anything to contribute or any suggestion to this protocol.

Appreciate all comments and wish you all the best. Will keep you posted.

Thanks,
A.N

Unfortunately there is no substitute for experimentation. My T levels on TRT are fairly close ( a little higher) than where they were with Clomid, but I do better on TRT. We don't know exactly what is going on in the body. One reason for my situation might be that exogenous T prevents periodic drops due to over-training or sleep issues, but the bottom line is that many of us had to do a lot of trial and error to figure out what works for us as individuals. Nelson has a lot of experience and I would keep his advice in mind. Just because your body can produce T doesn't mean it is regulating it to be at the level necessary for your issues.

 

[JmarkH]

As others have said, we are individuals whose bodies react in unique ways. I'm still on a protocol of HCG and Enclomiphene and doing great. I see no reason to change a thing. My health provider placed the order today for my refills of both HCG and Enclomiphene. So for now, both are still available.

 

[Forty2]

As others have said, we are individuals whose bodies react in unique ways. I'm still on a protocol of HCG and Enclomiphene and doing great. I see no reason to change a thing. My health provider placed the order today for my refills of both HCG and Enclomiphene. So for now, both are still available.

What dose of HCG and Enclomiphene are you taking?
Also have you had blood work done to see if enclomiphene can keep LH levels up whilst on HCG?

 

[Forty2]

Hello,

I'm seeking advise from experts here, or at least opinions that can help me explain my situation.

- 60 yo man
- 6.0 feet tall
- 178 lbs
- 19.7 % body fat
- Generally healthy (No diabetes, Cardiovascular issues, thyroids, or any other conditions)

I started my journey with 490 ng/dl of total T and 27 pg/dl Estradiol mid last year. Symptoms were typical, lack of sensitivity, difficulty getting aroused, erections problems, insomnia, moodiness, long time to orgasm, etc.

First visit to renown Andrologist put me on 2000 iU of hCG (Empower). First month worked wonders, all symptoms improved, but month 2 and 3 were horrible, worse than before. At my request, he measured Total T and E2 which were at 309 ng/dl and 27 pg/dl respectively.

Since compounded hCG had been banned by the FDA, he put me on Enclomiphene 12.5 mg/day in January. By February by Total T has gone up to 706 ng/dL and E2 to 31 pg/dL. By mid March, total T was 787 ng/dL and E2 was 36 pg/dl.

Last week, my final exams, showed Total T to be 1183 ng/dl and E2 (sensitive) 33 pg/mL and Free T 138 pg/dL

By all counts the numbers are great, by my symptoms have not improved a bit, nothing, nada zilch. The only thing I can say improved a bit initially is the moodiness and tolerance to disagreements, and even that is starting to subside.

View attachment 22962

So great, enclomiphene is able to accomplish phenomenal values, but clinically, it doesn't improve any symptoms at all. If I remember correctly, that's one of the reasons that the FDA did not approve Androxal.

Where do I go from here? Additionally, compounded Enclomiphene has been banned by the FDA as well.

I have never taken exogenous testosterone. Would it make any difference compared to my natural T?

Thanks,

Luis

Luis, did you at least notice an increase in muscle strength or a reduction in post workout muscle soreness from Enclomiphene?

 

[JmarkH]

What dose of HCG and Enclomiphene are you taking?
Also have you had blood work done to see if enclomiphene can keep LH levels up whilst on HCG?

I'm 63, currently 190lbs at 5'9" and didn't start any kind of protocol until February 2022. I've lost 15-20 lbs but feel that is a loss of 25 lbs fat and a gain of 10-15 lbs muscle. I started because of symptoms more than lab numbers, although the numbers were far from optimum. I may be a bit of a unicorn, so ymmv. I'm taking 250iu HCG 4xwk and 50mg Enclomiphene 4xwk. My last labs were on July 7, 2022. LH 8.2 r1.7-8.6; FSH 7.9 r1.5-12.4; Estradiol ECLIA 38.4 r7.6-42.6; SHBG 48.2 r19.3-76.4; TT 956 r264-916; FT direct 17.3 r6.6-18.1.

 

[Forty2]

I'm 63, currently 190lbs at 5'9" and didn't start any kind of protocol until February 2022. I've lost 15-20 lbs but feel that is a loss of 25 lbs fat and a gain of 10-15 lbs muscle. I started because of symptoms more than lab numbers, although the numbers were far from optimum. I may be a bit of a unicorn, so ymmv. I'm taking 250iu HCG 4xwk and 50mg Enclomiphene 4xwk. My last labs were on July 7, 2022. LH 8.2 r1.7-8.6; FSH 7.9 r1.5-12.4; Estradiol ECLIA 38.4 r7.6-42.6; SHBG 48.2 r19.3-76.4; TT 956 r264-916; FT direct 17.3 r6.6-18.1.

Those numbers look very good. You're taking a very large dose of enclomiphene. I haven't come across anyone taking more than 25mg/day. Did you begin with a smaller dose and work your way up?

When you say you're taking enclomiphene and HCG 4xwk, do you mean you're taking them on the same day for 4 days in a row with 3 days off?

Also did you ever try taking enclomiphene on its own? If so, how did you feel before adding HCG?
Thanks again.

 

[JmarkH]

Did you begin with a smaller dose and work your way up?

When you say you're taking enclomiphene and HCG 4xwk, do you mean you're taking them on the same day for 4 days in a row with 3 days off?

Also did you ever try taking enclomiphene on its own? If so, how did you feel before adding HCG?

I take them both on the same day/morning on M, W, F, Sa. My protocol started out with 25mg Clomid and 250iu HCG 4xwk. After my 8-week labs, I moved to 50mg Enclomiphene and 250iu HCG 4xwk. I've always taken them both together. I did notice a rather significant change in calmness and emotional stability after switching to Enclomiphene. I wasn't bad with Clomid but I had to stay aware and fight kneejerk reactions. Per the labs I can't nail down the cause because everything was lower on Clomid.

 

[aneuman]

did you at least notice an increase in muscle strength or a reduction in post workout muscle soreness from Enclomiphene?

Nope. I might have put on some muscle, since I started to lift again, but I would say the effect was not noticeable in any area, just in the labs.

 

[Forty2]

Nope. I might have put on some muscle, since I started to lift again, but I would say the effect was not noticeable in any area, just in the labs.

That's very strange for you to feel nothing given that testosterone increased so much.
I'm just a week into enclomiphene @ 12.5mg/day. Having labs done in another week. I felt stronger at the gym last week, but not this week, so it probably had nothing to do with the enclomiphene. No increase in libido at all, unlike during the first 3-4 weeks when I took clomid. Clomid also increased my muscle strength significantly.
I posted on another forum that I had a dream where I added 5mg clomid to enclomiphene and began to feel a lot better.
This may actually work because it will give just a little increase in estradiol but not too much as you get when taking only clomid.
Another option is to take a low dose of HCG, like 250iu eod along with enclomiphene.
What do you think?

 

[aneuman]

That's very strange for you to feel nothing given that testosterone increased so much.
I'm just a week into enclomiphene @ 12.5mg/day. Having labs done in another week. I felt stronger at the gym last week, but not this week, so it probably had nothing to do with the enclomiphene. No increase in libido at all, unlike during the first 3-4 weeks when I took clomid. Clomid also increased my muscle strength significantly.
I posted on another forum that I had a dream where I added 5mg clomid to enclomiphene and began to feel a lot better.
This may actually work because it will give just a little increase in estradiol but not too much as you get when taking only clomid.
Another option is to take a low dose of HCG, like 250iu eod along with enclomiphene.
What do you think?

Keep in mind I'm 60 years old. I'm doing hCG now, if I don't get much success. I'll try combining enclomiphene. My concerned is that enclomiphene has been banned , so where would I source it? Clomid has bad reputation in some circles due to a supposed estrogenic effect.

 

[aneuman]

As others have said, we are individuals whose bodies react in unique ways. I'm still on a protocol of HCG and Enclomiphene and doing great. I see no reason to change a thing. My health provider placed the order today for my refills of both HCG and Enclomiphene. So for now, both are still available.

JmarkH

I see from your signature that yo are taking:
- HCG 250 UI 4 times per week
- Enclomiohene 50 mg 4 times per week

Questions:
- Are you still happy with the results of your protocol?
- If you don't mind, how old are you (simply to see if I can extrapolate your results to me)
- Do you have a recent lab values you could share with me? Total T, Free T, E2, Prolactin, etc.
- How do you break 4 times a week between HCG and Enclomiphene, 4 days in a row? M, W, F, Sunday? Do you take Encomiplene on the same day you take the HCG or alternate?

I'd really appreciate any feedback you can provide.

Thanks,

A.N