8 Months on Daily Scrotal T Cream, E2 Still High

[DaytonaJonah]

Advice Needed From Others In The Same Boat...

I've been on a daily regime of scrotal T cream application of 100mg and running my TT at around 950 ng/dL after about 8 solid months. My E2 has settled around 80 pg/ml and while I feel generally alright, I'm wishing for a better libido feeling...big head isn't talking so much to the little head. I suspect that the scrotal application of T cream is causing my higher E2 numbers.

Would switching over to everyday or eod pinning likely bring my E2 down into a better TT/E2 ratio range but continue to keep my TT up where it is now? I realize everyone is different, but I'm looking for others who have found the same with the cream and then switched to injecting and have felt better overall.

Or, should I stay with transdermal delivery of T(which is easy to do) and use something to lower my E2 a bit? I've crashed my E2 previously using AI, so I'm not going to repeat that scenario again...it wasn't pleasant.

Thanks in advance for anyone's input.

 

[Gman86]

What’s your free T at? Are you just applying the 100mg once in the am? If libido is lacking, I would personally try upping your dose, and try applying it twice daily. To feel good on the cream I needed my free T in the 40’s. I needed 300mg/ day of the cream to achieve this free T. Even though I felt good in all other areas, libido was still a 6/10 for me. But I definitely had way lower libido when my total T came back 819 on the cream. Free T was 19.9 when total was 819.

 

[DaytonaJonah]

What’s your free T at? Are you just applying the 100mg once in the am? If libido is lacking, I would personally try upping your dose, and try applying it twice daily. To feel good on the cream I needed my free T in the 40’s. I needed 300mg/ day of the cream to achieve this free T. Even though I felt good in all other areas, libido was still a 6/10 for me. But I definitely had way lower libido when my total T came back 819 on the cream. Free T was 19.9 when total was 819.

Gman...currently, and for some time now my free T is around 66 pg/mL. So, I don't think I need any more Total Test.

TT= 954.85 ng/mL
FT= 66.40 pg/mL
E2= 78.91 pg/mL
SHBG= 26.90 nmol/L

I've been at these levels for a few months now after I stopped taking 200mg of cream each day, then down to 150mg each day, then about 3 months ago settled at 100mg of T cream/day.

My libido is like yours, it's there and "okay", but not great to raging like I had for a few days when I started my T journey last summer when I began with Sustenon 250/per week. That first few days was simply the very best I've felt...the "honey-moon" I suppose. I've read here where guys have that completely dialed in and are doing incredibly well. I want to find my sweet spot as well.

 

[Systemlord]

To provide context please add in reference ranges for you Free T value. The only way to reduce estrogen is decrease the dosage or apply cream 1x daily.

I find it easier to maintain and control testosterone and estrogen on injections, creams you have less control over how much T enters your body.

 

[Gman86]

Wow, 66? That’s unbelievable. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a free T so high with a total T below 1000

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

How high is DHT?

 

[DaytonaJonah]

To provide context please add in reference ranges for you Free T value. The only way to reduce estrogen is decrease the dosage or apply cream 1x daily.

I find it easier to maintain and control testosterone and estrogen on injections, creams you have less control over how much T enters your body.

The FT reference range on my lab report is between 1.00 - 28.28. And I agree, my FT is very high as is my E2. And I'm only doing one application of 100mg. per day, generally late mornings.

I think I'll stop with the cream and begin pinning 2 times a week beginning with 50mg. of Sustanon and see if I can get my numbers to come down and hopefully start feeling better and then retest again in 6 weeks.

 

[DaytonaJonah]

How high is DHT?

I haven't tested DHT in the past.

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

The FT reference range on my lab report is between 1.00 - 28.28. And I agree, my FT is very high as is my E2. And I'm only doing one application of 100mg. per day, generally late mornings.

I think I'll stop with the cream and begin pinning 2 times a week beginning with 50mg. of Sustanon and see if I can get my numbers to come down and hopefully start feeling better and then retest again in 6 weeks.

As I am interrested in trying a multi-ester Test like Sustanon, so I figured the following in theory but do not know how to relate this to your 100mg cream a day:

Active Half Life of Sustanon is between 15-18 days so if you need 5 half life cycles to get to 96% serum saturation, testing would be at a minimum after 75 days or 10-11 weeks.

Because of the multi-ester each ester on its own will reach saturation after its 5x half life so for Sustanon that would be:
ester(% of Sustanon) = serum saturation time
Tprop(12%)=10 days
Tphen(24%)=22.5 days
Tisoc (24%)=45 days
Tdeca (40%)=75 days
(Multi-ester = multi-honeymoon....lol)

The molecular weight of Sustanon is .7 so 100mg a week would be 70mg unestrified Test at full saturation, although its not that simple as each ester also has each its own molecular weight so at different half life times you will have different esters releasing their % of 100mg T.
Tprop(.837)= 10.004mg
Tphen(.686)= 16.464mg
Tisoc (.746)= 17.904mg
Tdeca(.652)= 26.080mg

I wrote this to understand this in theory for myself as I already use a multi-ester Test but want to move to Sustanon, in this way I will calculate how much I need to inject SQ daily to stay on the same levels as I am now.
As I mentioned I do not know how to transition from your cream.
Hope I did not complicate things too much and hopefully somebody comes up and sets me straight.

 

[Systemlord]

The FT reference range on my lab report is between 1.00 - 28.28. And I agree, my FT is very high as is my E2.

I don't think creams are the answer for you, you need more control over how much T enters your body, you need a precise dosage. I think daily or EOD injections are your optimal choices using cypionate or enanthate.

I'm like you, I'm very sensitive to TRT and only need a Total T at 350-400 to feel like a young man again, anything beyond Total T of 425 my body starts going haywire, kidneys become overactive and I start having electrolytes imbalances.

I need very precise control over my dosing.

 

[Renman23]

I take Daily T cream. I apply to my inner forearms... I know there's less absorption but from what i understand less conversion of t to E2....

I also take a small dose of AI...

 

[Stylo]

Id get back on the needle pronto. No need for an AI, and definitely adds more control to the outcome. Subq or IM is going to be your next hurdle. Have you had your prolactin checked? Also for libido, I have noticed that I tease my mind with pics of naked or clothed women. No porn. And when libido is boosted, I dont jack off to the point of no return. I do edge daily though. This creates a need for release, so the mind wants it. If you had it, it will return.

 

[DaytonaJonah]

I don't think creams are the answer for you, you need more control over how much T enters your body, you need a precise dosage. I think daily or EOD injections are your optimal choices using cypionate or enanthate.

I'm like you, I'm very sensitive to TRT and only need a Total T at 350-400 to feel like a young man again, anything beyond Total T of 425 my body starts going haywire, kidneys become overactive and I start having electrolytes imbalances.

I need very precise control over my dosing.

Thank you for your advice...and I agree that cream is not the answer for me.

I found a post here on Excelmale forums from last summer from someone(said both he and his wife are doctors in Spain) that after 3 years on and off of TRT struggling with high E2 symptoms, high BP etc., that he employed a testosterone "stack" protocol. He pinned 200mg. of Nebido every 18 days + 25mg. of test cypionate pinned once every week to create a "base" test together with a cover test that would provide a smaller roller coaster rise and fall each week...theoretically making a curcadium rythym of test peaks/troughs. Additionally, he injected just enough HCG each week(twice wkly of 250 IU) to keep his testicles to a normal size.

He was able to keep his E2 within a decent range, felt great, had "libido through the roof", and did so all without the use of an AI.

I thought it was a well-thought out approach worth considering.

 

[Systemlord]

He was able to keep his E2 within a decent range, felt great, had "libido through the roof", and did so all without the use of an AI.

I thought it was a well-thought out approach worth considering.

One thing you have to understand is you can't model what someone else has done and expect it to work for you, response to those three compounds greatly varies between individuals. I'm not saying don't try, just beware that your protocol may end up looking very different.

The mixing of esters isn't recommended, no need to over-complicate your protocol, you can make it work on just one ester and can vary the dosage from time to time to create variability in hormone levels every other week it if feel better doing it.

 

[DaytonaJonah]

One thing you have to understand is you can't model what someone else has done and expect it to work for you, response to those three compounds greatly varies between individuals. I'm not saying don't try, just beware that your protocol may end up looking very different.

The mixing of esters isn't recommended, no need to over-complicate your protocol, you can make it work on just one ester and can vary the dosage from time to time to create variability in hormone levels every other week it if feel better doing it.

Yes indeed, I'm well aware now that everyone responds differently to many of the same things in TRT. One is feeling fantastic on "X" amount on "X" days and another doing the exact same thing, dosage and timing, and feels like they're near death. What I like about his protocol is that he failed at others and then hit on one that works very well for him and I liked the reasoning behind it. I may try it out knowing I will very likely need to tweak it one way or the other. I just hate the thought of having to micro-dose an AI and would like to avoid it if possible.

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

I do the same. After my first 5 half-life cycle on Cypionate, I felt great but flat in all ways. So I researched the Diurnal Cycle and Seasonable variability and combine multiple esters with Base to recreate/simulate these. Works great. I only added HCG recently and never used an AI. I do use a low dose DHT derivative to add the icing on the cake.

 

[DaytonaJonah]

I do the same. After my first 5 half-life cycle on Cypionate, I felt great but flat in all ways. So I researched the Diurnal Cycle and Seasonable variability and combine multiple esters with Base to recreate/simulate these. Works great. I only added HCG recently and never used an AI. I do use a low dose DHT derivative to add the icing on the cake.

What DHT derivative are you using? What is your protocol? What effect is it having on your overall program?

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

You can klik on my name and see in some of my posts I describe the effects and what I use.
In short I use for some extra DHT, freeing up T, lowering SHBG, controlling/reducing E2/Aromatase, improving mood, astuteness, aggression/speed/endurance for Martial Arts training/gym workouts, etc
Proviron(12.5-50mg)
Masteron(10-20mg)
Stanozolol(2-10mg)
Yes, although much more subtle at these low dosages, they all do that for me. (I add one at the time, when one is finished I cycle another)

My test protocol is a bit more work to explain and is a work in progress.
I use T undec, cyp or enant, prop and a base which is just T disolved in oil or in suspension(water).
My base level of T comes from the Undecoanate and the other esters produce a more monthly, bi-weekly, weekly fluctuations to recreate the seasonal variations. The base/suspension creates the diurnal variation. So I add to my base T mix an extra 3-8mg unestrified T which gives me an energy surge after 30 minutes with a slow reduced effect in 8/10 hours.
As I inject everyday at 8am this will wake me up and keeps me driven, focussed and energized all day until 20.00/22.00.
At first it didnt look like much these small dosages of different esters and the base on top but throughtout the year it fluctuates between 17-30+-.5mg per day. I actually can feel the change in daily, weekly, monthly dosages.
Being in a continious state of flux hormonally makes more sense to me as the only constant in live is change....it also feels great to me as I look forward to the ups and downs. As I am coming down from the winter high I am feeling great as in a relieve on relaxing more as it gets really hot here. Then it felt just as great feeling hormone levels slowly rise into winter and feeling that nice drive instead of the dreaded winter depression .

Again this is all for me and maybe I am totally delussional but at least I feel great 24/7/365.....but I do not know the long term effects.
As of sides, I can feel/see some waterretention on my chest and some times have a slight doughy look but for most of the time you can see the veins and I am strong, weigh 95Kg at 50 years old and at 1.88(6´2) with a BF of 9%.
Since recently I added the HCG and have had a pimple pop up on my lower back and had some bloating, fatigue when doing HCG 250-500IU EOD....but not anymore on 150IU ED with my T mix in the morning.

I will leave it at this for now as tweaking never ends....lol

 

[DaytonaJonah]

You can klik on my name and see in some of my posts I describe the effects and what I use.
In short I use for some extra DHT, freeing up T, lowering SHBG, controlling/reducing E2/Aromatase, improving mood, astuteness, aggression/speed/endurance for Martial Arts training/gym workouts, etc
Proviron(12.5-50mg)
Masteron(10-20mg)
Stanozolol(2-10mg)
Yes, although much more subtle at these low dosages, they all do that for me. (I add one at the time, when one is finished I cycle another)

My test protocol is a bit more work to explain and is a work in progress.
I use T undec, cyp or enant, prop and a base which is just T disolved in oil or in suspension(water).
My base level of T comes from the Undecoanate and the other esters produce a more monthly, bi-weekly, weekly fluctuations to recreate the seasonal variations. The base/suspension creates the diurnal variation. So I add to my base T mix an extra 3-8mg unestrified T which gives me an energy surge after 30 minutes with a slow reduced effect in 8/10 hours.
As I inject everyday at 8am this will wake me up and keeps me driven, focussed and energized all day until 20.00/22.00.
At first it didnt look like much these small dosages of different esters and the base on top but throughtout the year it fluctuates between 17-30+-.5mg per day. I actually can feel the change in daily, weekly, monthly dosages.
Being in a continious state of flux hormonally makes more sense to me as the only constant in live is change....it also feels great to me as I look forward to the ups and downs. As I am coming down from the winter high I am feeling great as in a relieve on relaxing more as it gets really hot here. Then it felt just as great feeling hormone levels slowly rise into winter and feeling that nice drive instead of the dreaded winter depression .

Again this is all for me and maybe I am totally delussional but at least I feel great 24/7/365.....but I do not know the long term effects.
As of sides, I can feel/see some waterretention on my chest and some times have a slight doughy look but for most of the time you can see the veins and I am strong, weigh 95Kg at 50 years old and at 1.88(6´2) with a BF of 9%.
Since recently I added the HCG and have had a pimple pop up on my lower back and had some bloating, fatigue when doing HCG 250-500IU EOD....but not anymore on 150IU ED with my T mix in the morning.

I will leave it at this for now as tweaking never ends....lol

That is quite the program...I'm glad it is working well for you. I'm not certain I can put that much effort and finesse into mine, but will try to implement at least its purpose of a base, then rhythms on top to mimic natural ebbs and flows. Maybe in time, I will get to where I'm at your level of dialing in. I wish you continued success.

I purchased HCG but am really reluctant to begin that again. My last two attempts at injecting it were last summer where I again experienced levels of anxiety I don't normally have. And about 10 years ago when I first went on a trt program and asked my doctor about getting my testicle size back. Tried HCG then(not certain of weekly protocol) but I ended up in the emergency room after massive panic attacks, difficulty breathing and having 3 continuous sleepless nights. It was literally a nightmare.

I don't know if micro-dosing HCG is worth it because it may not be enough to get the balls rolling. I may just be one of the rare ones that are hyper-sensitive to it.

Do you, or anyone else, have any suggestions on how to effectively lower and manage high E2? I see others are successful dissolving Arimidex into vodka and then taking mirco-dose drops daily to do so. Is that the ONLY way? Or, are there others?

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

Wow, that is some reaction to HCG. I have read on another forum guys who do 50IU a day and got everything working again(got wife pregnant after years of AAS) but it took 8 months. I am more of the school of being consistant on a low dose and wait & see. (be the tortoise not the hare) Large pulses like twice a week 350-500IU was too much for me too. Now on just 100-150IU a day and I feel great, meaning I do not have the E2 sides. I do not care about the testicle esthetics as I never had huge balls anyways but thats maybe optics in comparison to the shaft.....lol...just kidding.

The main reason why I was/am interrested in the DHT derivatives is the minor E2 control they offer. So depending on my T dose I take 12.5-25mg of Proviron or add 10-20mg Masteron to my injections....no problems with E2 whatsoever. I understand it depends where you are to be able to legally do that. I never used an AI so I can not give you any advice on that.