35% Drop in serum Total T in 6 months with no protocol change. Why???

[Simon7]

Hi everyone,

During the past 6 months I've experienced a 35% drop in Total Testosterone levels, while keeping the same protocol. Has anyone experienced anything similar? What could be the cause for this decline?

My Protocol:
60mg Testosterone Enanthate SubQ E3.5D
700IU HcG SubQ E3.5D
0.25mg Anastrozole three times a week

I've been on TRT for 4.5 years, the past three years on Enanthate & HcG injections. During these last three years I've been tinkering with the dosage and frequency of the T and HcG injections, until last May I stopped the tinkering and have since kept the same protocol.

SHBG is in the range of 16-20

Aug 2019: Total T 796 ng/dl , E2 45 pg/ml
Nov 2019: Total T 678 ng/dl , E2 29 pg/ml
Feb 2020: Total T 516 ng/dl , E2 40 pg/ml

Has anyone experienced anything similar? What could be the cause for this drop in Total T?

 

[pmgamer18]

Hi everyone,

During the past 6 months I've experienced a 35% drop in Total Testosterone levels, while keeping the same protocol. Has anyone experienced anything similar? What could be the cause for this decline?

My Protocol:
60mg Testosterone Enanthate SubQ E3.5D
700IU HcG SubQ E3.5D
0.25mg Anastrozole three times a week

I've been on TRT for 4.5 years, the past three years on Enanthate & HcG injections. During these last three years I've been tinkering with the dosage and frequency of the T and HcG injections, until last May I stopped the tinkering and have since kept the same protocol.

SHBG is in the range of 16-20

Aug 2019: Total T 796 ng/dl , E2 45 pg/ml
Nov 2019: Total T 678 ng/dl , E2 29 pg/ml
Feb 2020: Total T 516 ng/dl , E2 40 pg/ml

Has anyone experienced anything similar? What could be the cause for this drop in Total T?

Hi Simon7,



I had the same problem many years ago. I take it your doing shots 2x's/week and HCG on then same day.



I can't tell yoy what to do but can tell you what now works for me. I do my T shot evert 3 das subQ into my belly fat and I do my HCG 250 IU's the day before my T shot.



I am 76 now been on TRT over 40 years my T shot is 80 mgs I feel best when my T levels are at or near the top of my labs range.



I feel like Dr. John feels at allthingsmale doing the HCG shot the day before ones T shot helps keep my levels up.
pmgamer18

 

[Cataceous]

There's actually a study of guys on TRT showing surprisingly large variations in serum testosterone measurements. There are many variables, including test accuracy, testicular efficiency when using hCG, SHBG (lower brings down total T at the same dose), injection site leakage w/subQ injections, concentration variations in different batches of testosterone enanthate, etc.

With all of these factors I'm surprised I was able to establish a very linear dose-response relationship. There was one outlier that was clearly wrong. The advantage of building up a good-sized dataset is that you then recognize when a result is probably incorrect.

 

[Systemlord]

I have encountered changing levels retaining the same dosage while being extremely consistent. It seems levels flucutes just like they do when natural.

How much your levels fluctuates is very individual, so your mileage may vary. You might try more frequent dosing to minimize this variation is hormone levels making the fluctuations smaller.

 

[Simon7]

Thank you all for your feedback!

 

[xqfq]

I once accidentally had two testosterone labs drawn at the same time from LabCorp. One came back at nearly 200 ng/dL lower than the other!

 

[charile12]

Hi Simon7,



I had the same problem many years ago. I take it your doing shots 2x's/week and HCG on then same day.



I can't tell yoy what to do but can tell you what now works for me. I do my T shot evert 3 das subQ into my belly fat and I do my HCG 250 IU's the day before my T shot.



I am 76 now been on TRT over 40 years my T shot is 80 mgs I feel best when my T levels are at or near the top of my labs range.



I feel like Dr. John feels at allthingsmale doing the HCG shot the day before ones T shot helps keep my levels up.
pmgamer18

Is that 160mg a week total divided in 2 shots?

I don't hear much from guys that are your age and on trt as long as you.

Were you taking hcg the entire time?
And what supplements are you currently taking ?
Medications?
Thank you .

 

[pmgamer18]

Is that 160mg a week total divided in 2 shots?

I don't hear much from guys that are your age and on trt as long as you.

Were you taking hcg the entire time?
And what supplements are you currently taking ?
Medications?
Thank you .

I have been on HCG for over 15 years hear is a copy of my meds & supplements.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PHILIP’S MED’S​

• Aromasin(Exemestane) 25 mgs E3 days.
• Aspirin 81 mg 2x’s/day.
• Alprazolam(Xanax) .5 mg. 3x’s/day.
• Atenolol 25 mg. 2x/day morning and noon for heart beta-blocker.
• Triamterene/HCTZ 37.5/25 mgs. One pill every M,W,F,S&S 5 pills/ week.
• Lasix(Furosemide) 40 mgs Tue and Thur 2 pills/ week.
• Cialis 5 mgs / day for BP and BPH.
• Testosterone Cypionate 200mgs/ml. at .3 1/2 ml. or 70 mgs shot every 3 days subQ.
• Pregnyl Mdv/ inj 10 ml. HCG shot 250 IU’s E3D the day before Testosterone shot.
• Celecoxib 200 mgs. 2x/day morning and dinner.
• Hydrocortisone (Cortef) 30 mgs. total 10 mgs morning at 3am, 5mgs at 9am, 5 mgs at 1pm, 5 mgs at 6pm and 5mgs at bedtime six pills / day total.
• Florinef .1 mgs. 1x’s/day with ½ tsp. of Sea Salt added to water 27oz canteen 1x’s/day drink at least 3 canteens / day.
• Cytomel 5mcgs 4x’s /day.
• Concerta 18 mgs 1x’s /day.
• Synthroid generic 150 mcgs./day.
• Potassium Chloride 20 mgs Mon,Wed and Fri 3 pills / week.
• Ferrous Fumarate Iron pills 324 mgs. One pill every M,W&F 3 pills/ week.
• Thera-Gesic Analgesic pain cream morning and dinner for shoulder and back.
• GenTeal® Mild To Moderate Dry Eye Relief Lubricant Eye Drops 2x's/ day.
• Acetaminophen Arthrits Pain Reliever 650 mgs / cap doing 2 caps 3x's/day.
• Entresto 2x’s/day.
• Hemp seed oil caps 1x’s/day.
  
  
  
  

​

Supplements​

• Twinlab, L-Arginine & L-Ornithine, 100 Capsules 1/day at bedtime
• NOW brand ZMA 800mgs 3 at bedtime.
• Copper 2mgs 1 at noon.
• Iodoral Iodine 1/4 tab / day 3 mgs.
• Solary Super Bio C 2 x’s/day 1000 mgs. Total I don’t take this is my B vit.’s.
• Biotics Research Corp. Bio-D Mulsion Forte D3, 2,000 IU, 1 fl oz 10 drops / day morning.
• Now Foods, Melatonin, 3 mg, 60 Capsules
• The Real Food Trading Company, Himalayan Pink Sea Salt ½ tsp. / day.
• NAC N-Acetyl Cysteine, Selenium, Molybdenum - 600 mg. 3x’s / day.
• Coenzyme B Complex 2x’s /day.
  The following supplements are for the damage to my muscles from Statin Drugs.
• BioCitrate Selenium - 200 mcg 1x’s / day morning.
• Krill Oil capliques 500 mgs. 2 with food morning mercola.com
• Ubiquinol Capliques Featuring Kaneka's Qh (200mgs) 3x’s/day mercola.com.
• Lecithin From Sunflower NOW brand 1200 mgs 1x’s/day.
• Acetyl-L Carnitine 500 mg 3x’s/day.
• Alpha Lipoic Acid 250 mg/day.
• Life Extension, Super-Absorbable Tocotrienols, 60 Softgels One at dinner.
• Vitamin K2 Mercoloa.com one / day.
• Life Extension, Neuro-Mag, Magnesium L-Threonate 1 cap 3x's/day.
• Now Foods, D-Mannose, 500 mg 3 pills / day when needed for bladder infections.
• Thorne Research, Methyl-Guard Plus 3x’s / day.
• Life Extension, Mega Benfotiamine, 250 mg, 2x's / day.
• Dr. Mercola Complete Probiotics 1 in the morning.
• Dr. Mercola Whole-Food Multivitamin Plus. 4/day.
• Thorne Research, Magnesium Citramate 1x/day.

 

[fifty]

pmgamer it looks like you are the #1 customer of medicine and supplements

 

[pmgamer18]

My wife tells me I am pissing all these supplements down the drain. But when she tried to make her point with my heart Dr. he told her this is what is keeping alive.

 

[charile12]

At your age they probably don't want to change anything...

What are your dhea s level?

 

[pmgamer18]

My DHEA is 46 normal range 31 to 701.

 

[charile12]

And you decided not to supplement it because?

 

[pmgamer18]

It makes E2 go up if your in range.

 

[Simon7]

Hi everyone,

During the past 6 months I've experienced a 35% drop in Total Testosterone levels, while keeping the same protocol. Has anyone experienced anything similar? What could be the cause for this decline?

My Protocol:
60mg Testosterone Enanthate SubQ E3.5D
700IU HcG SubQ E3.5D
0.25mg Anastrozole three times a week

I've been on TRT for 4.5 years, the past three years on Enanthate & HcG injections. During these last three years I've been tinkering with the dosage and frequency of the T and HcG injections, until last May I stopped the tinkering and have since kept the same protocol.

SHBG is in the range of 16-20

Aug 2019: Total T 796 ng/dl , E2 45 pg/ml
Nov 2019: Total T 678 ng/dl , E2 29 pg/ml
Feb 2020: Total T 516 ng/dl , E2 40 pg/ml

Has anyone experienced anything similar? What could be the cause for this drop in Total T?

Update: I increased my T enanthate dose by 10 percent and retested 3 months later. Total T is now back to 776 ng/dl, E2 38 pg/ml.

This week I also had the blood test one hour earlier in the morning than the previous two tests. Wondering if the hour of the blood draw has such an impact.

Glad to see I'm not broken Thanks for the advice to stick to my protocol.

 

[stongercards]

The same thing happened to me!

I'm prescribed TRT through a doctor. I take 100mg/wk of testosterone enanthate (Delatestryl). The last 2 blood labs came in with total testosterone at 937ng/dl and then again at 1088ng/dl. However, now my total testosterone blood labs came in at 654ng/dl! I always take my blood work 72 hours post-shot as instructed by my doctor to get peak serum levels for the labs.

Do we build a tolerance to testosterone? Could my pharma test be underdosed? Could it be due to oil leakage? (I had a loonie-sized amount of blood leak out upon withdrawing the syringe from my quad.) Was it a faulty blood lab?

What could have happened?!

 

[bixt]

Excellent chance its the SUBQ resulting in lower levels over time.

Switch to IM and report back.

 

[madman]

Excellent chance its the SUBQ resulting in lower levels over time.

Switch to IM and report back.

Might wanna try asking someone to post a full set of labs (assays/reference ranges, lab used) let alone make sure when it comes to comparing blood work whether one is following a strictly sub-q protocol, strictly IM protocol let alone sub-q vs IM protocol that they are following the steps needed in order to make a fair comparison before shooting off at the mouth stating....Excellent chance its the SUBQ resulting in lower levels over time

Still caught up on that it must be the sub-q resulting in the lower levels bulls**t!

As you and many that have been on the forum long enough should very well know when comparing labs:

1. The protocol needs to be kept the same (ester/dose T/injection frequency)

2. 4-6 weeks for blood levels to stabilize before getting blood work done (6 weeks)

3. Testing is done at the true trough

4. Using the same lab

5. Using the same assays (most accurate) TT/e2 (LC-MS/MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration)

6. Each protocol needs to be given 12 weeks (claim success or failure)


Only then can one make the claim whether the protocol was truly a success or failure let alone when comparing blood levels.




OP (post #1)

My Protocol:
60mg Testosterone Enanthate SubQ E3.5D
700IU HcG SubQ E3.5D
0.25mg Anastrozole three times a week

I've been on TRT for 4.5 years, the past three years on Enanthate & HcG injections. During these last three years I've been tinkering with the dosage and frequency of the T and HcG injections, until last May I stopped the tinkering and have since kept the same protocol.

SHBG is in the range of 16-20

Aug 2019: Total T 796 ng/dl , E2 45 pg/ml
Nov 2019: Total T 678 ng/dl , E2 29 pg/ml
Feb 2020: Total T 516 ng/dl , E2 40 pg/ml

1. kept his protocol (dose T/injection frequency) the same since May
2. stable levels as he has been on the same protocol for months on end
3. never mentioned if blood work was done at true trough each time
4. never mentioned if blood work was done at the same lab each time
5. never mentioned if blood work was done using the same assay each time
6. been on his protocol since last May and we have no clue how he feels overall as he did not mention it


Even then if we give him the benefit of the doubt 3-5 you can clearly see that he has been on trt for 4.5 yrs and the last 3 years have been TE/hCG injected strictly sub-q.

Looking over his very first thread on the forum from 2018 (posted below) you can clearly see that he has been f**king with sub-q injections from the get-go!

Never had any issues with the effectiveness/absorption of injecting T strictly sub-q for the past few years up until Feb.2020 when his TT was 678 ng/dL (Nov.2019) which then dropped to 516 ng/dL (Feb.2020).....3 months later.

Yet you jump the gun claiming sub-q is most likely to blame!

If anything one would have run into issues well within starting sub-q injections.

You need to break yourself free of that heard you follow on some of those bro forums.

You know the ones with all those blast/cruisers claiming he said/she said, this, that, and the other.




OP (post #1)

Optimal TRT Strategy for low SHBG guys; SSRI effects; HCG vs. T injections effect on polycythemia

Hi everyone, I've been reading here for a little over a year and I've found this site most educational. Thank you to Nelson for all the informative material on this website (I also enjoyed your book which I bought on Amazon) and for everyone else here who contributes information and shares...

www.excelmale.com

Hi everyone,

I've been reading here for a little over a year and I've found this site most educational. Thank you to Nelson for all the informative material on this website (I also enjoyed your book which I bought on Amazon) and for everyone else here who contributes information and shares their experience.

Background on me and my TRT journey:

I'm 55 yo male, all my life I've enjoyed a high sex drive and high sexual function. My wife and I had problems conceiving children some 20+ years ago and my sperm was tested and turned out to have low quantity and very low motility so we were given the express path to IVF/ICSI. My Testosterone was tested then too and was on the low side of normal. My sexual dysfunction problems began three years ago after several months of taking an SSRI to alleviate stress of dealing with a life crisis. The SSRI crashed my libido and caused ED, but I wasn't too worried as I knew this to be temporary as I experienced similar symptoms before when I took an SSRI for several months and also when I took a Propecia for a month - but I rebounded very well both these times after I stopped taking the medication. However this time the symptoms of low libido and ED persisted after I got off the SSRI. I finally got tested and had Total Testosterone that was below the low normal range, as well as low LH & FSH, thus deducing secondary hypogonadism.

I tried both Nebido (Aveed) shots as well transdermal Testosterone but they were not able to provide me a stable level of Testosterone in the normal range. About a year ago I had a most helpful consultation with Dr. Crisler who pointed out that my low SHBG (around 17, which is the low side of normal) is causing the Testosterone to be flushed quickly out of my system. Dr. Crisler recommended me to go on bi weekly SUBQ injections of Testosterone, explaining that the slower release from the subq tissue would enable me to sustain a normal level of Testosterone. And indeed Dr. Crisler was right and when I switched to bi weekly Testosterone Enathate shots I was finally able to sustain a normal and stable level of Testosterone. Dr. Crisler also recommended taking DHEA and that indeed had a noticeable very positive effect on my libido, along with the HCG. For some reason I am still dependant on PDE5 inhibitors to overcome ED issues despite having for a year now normal Total Testosterone , managed E2 and high libido.

A couple of months ago I tried Clomid for two weeks (50mg three times a week) after a week of discontinuing the injections of T&HCG. However I had no response to the Clomid (LH remained low and my T and libido crashed) so I got off the Clomid and resumed the T&HCG therapy.

My current protocol:

45mg SUBQ Testostone Enathate twice a week
500IU SUBQ HCG three times a week
0.25mg Anastrazole twice a week
50mg DHEA twice a day

With the above protocol I am able to sustain a level of Total Testosterone of 600-650 ng/dL. When I increased the above dosage I was able to increase my Total Testosterone levels. My E2 levels are around 50-55 pg/ml, and I prefer to keep them a little higher than the normal range since the sensitive LC/MS test is not available here and the CLlA test used here to measure E2 may erroneously elevate the results.

 

[bixt]

Honestly, Im not going to waste time replying to you. You are arrogant to the core. You are always so... angry...its a real pity. The science on TRT is perhaps what, 10% complete? Huge strides will be taken in decades to come. Yet, you stand as if the books are closed and there is nothing left to learn or try or test. No great scientist or inventor was closed minded.

There is really no harm in the guy testing out some IM, nothing bad can happen. @ the OP, seriously, test out shallow IM.

Getting dialed in means experimenting with various doses, frequencies, delivery methods, E2 control (rarely) etc.

 

[madman]

Honestly, Im not going to waste time replying to you. You are arrogant to the core. You are always so... angry...its a real pity. The science on TRT is perhaps what, 10% complete? Huge strides will be taken in decades to come. Yet, you stand as if the books are closed and there is nothing left to learn or try or test. No great scientist or inventor was closed minded.

There is really no harm in the guy testing out some IM, nothing bad can happen. @ the OP, seriously, test out shallow IM.

Getting dialed in means experimenting with various doses, frequencies, delivery methods, E2 control (rarely) etc.

Again!

Might wanna try asking someone (the OP/strongercards) to post a full set of labs (assays/reference ranges, lab used) let alone make sure when it comes to comparing blood work whether one is following a strictly sub-q protocol, strictly IM protocol let alone sub-q vs IM protocol that they are following the steps needed in order to make a fair comparison before shooting off at the mouth stating....Excellent chance its the SUBQ resulting in lower levels over time

Who said that there is anything wrong with someone trying IM?

The sad fact of the matter is you clearly stated.....Excellent chance its the SUBQ resulting in lower levels over time

First thing flapping out your gums.

Give your head a shake.

OP never had an issue years in on a strictly sub-q protocol yet you pop your mug on the thread as you have done on numerous other threads pushing that it's the sub-q resulting in the lower levels bulls**t.