200mg + a week trend.

[equel]

Lol great, so now they start using anabolic steroids to their "trt protocol" aswell, "cause it feels good!".

These fucking people.

 

[Joey786]

There might be benefits to adding deca to your trt. Nelson used deca for ten years if I remember right

 

[antelopers]

There might be benefits to adding deca to your trt. Nelson used deca for ten years if I remember right

It's good for people with muscle wasting diseases, like Nelson if I'm not mistaken.

 

[ncsugrad]

Ive also seen him ban about 20-30 other people, who didnt agree with him.

Yup. He can’t just ban and delete things he doesn’t agree with on forums like this and others.

 

[Gman86]

I’m on steroids. We’re all on steroids. So to say deca is a “steroid” in a derogatory term, is just ignorant. All anabolics have health benefits. It’s the dose that makes them “steroids” in the sense that most people think of.

Deca is actually an extremely beneficial androgen. It is one of the most powerful anti-inflammatory compounds out there. Even more so than prednisone, without the risk of osteoporosis. It also is very beneficial to anyone that has joint issues, such as arthritis. It lubricates the joints. Also, from what I hear, it can improve someone’s T to E ratio by blocking SHBG’s effects and increasing free T. This can all be accomplished by using a small dose of 40-100mg/ week.

 

[Charliebizz]

I’m on steroids. We’re all on steroids. So to say deca is a “steroid” in a derogatory term, is just ignorant. All anabolics have health benefits. It’s the dose that makes them “steroids” in the sense that most people think of.

Deca is actually an extremely beneficial androgen. It is one of the most powerful anti-inflammatory compounds out there. Even more so than prednisone, without the risk of osteoporosis. It also is very beneficial to anyone that has joint issues, such as arthritis. It lubricates the joints. Also, from what I hear, it can improve someone’s T to E ratio by blocking SHBG’s effects and increasing free T. This can all be accomplished by using a small dose of 40-100mg/ week.

That’s great but these guys are throwing around terms like “natural“ “optimal” “bioidentical” and shitting on anyone trying to take a logical rout for trt. Trt is just replacing what we lost do to illness not trying to “optimize” aka using p.e.d for other reasons. Not saying it’s wrong if someone wants to use ped and it makes them happy but these guys are mudding the waters for men like me that just want to feel normal.

 

[xqfq]

I’m on steroids. We’re all on steroids. So to say deca is a “steroid” in a derogatory term, is just ignorant. All anabolics have health benefits. It’s the dose that makes them “steroids” in the sense that most people think of.

Deca is actually an extremely beneficial androgen. It is one of the most powerful anti-inflammatory compounds out there. Even more so than prednisone, without the risk of osteoporosis. It also is very beneficial to anyone that has joint issues, such as arthritis. It lubricates the joints. Also, from what I hear, it can improve someone’s T to E ratio by blocking SHBG’s effects and increasing free T. This can all be accomplished by using a small dose of 40-100mg/ week.

Benefits can be weighed with risks. In the case of muscle wasting, etc, these benefits may be worth the risk.

In the case of nandrolone, the risks (IMO) have to do with possible cardiotoxicity. Nandrolone increases the oxidiation of LDL particles (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5864976/) and there are many studies showing an increase in cardiac fibrosis and pathological cardiac remodeling (LVH). I believe these risks are greater than that of testosterone.

There’s probably a way to get the joint benefits without the cardiac risks associated with nandrolone. I don’t know much about this joint issue though.

 

[Gman86]

Benefits can be weighed with risks. In the case of muscle wasting, etc, these benefits may be worth the risk.

In the case of nandrolone, the risks (IMO) have to do with possible cardiotoxicity. Nandrolone increases the oxidiation of LDL particles (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5864976/) and there are many studies showing an increase in cardiac fibrosis and pathological cardiac remodeling (LVH). I believe these risks are greater than that of testosterone.

There’s probably a way to get the joint benefits without the cardiac risks associated with nandrolone. I don’t know much about this joint issue though.

I could be wrong, but I think the study is using insanely high doses. It said they gave the rats 10mg/ kg 3x/ week. That would be the equivalent of me taking 1900mg/ week. I’m talking about taking 40-50mg/ week of nandrolone. I can’t imagine there being any risks at this dosage.

 

[Gman86]

That’s great but these guys are throwing around terms like “natural“ “optimal” “bioidentical” and shitting on anyone trying to take a logical rout for trt. Trt is just replacing what we lost do to illness not trying to “optimize” aka using p.e.d for other reasons. Not saying it’s wrong if someone wants to use ped and it makes them happy but these guys are mudding the waters for men like me that just want to feel normal.

I see exactly what ur saying. To me, it just seems like there’s more than one way to do this whole HRT thing. Anything different than what we’re used to is going to be ridiculed, that’s just human nature.

You have Dr. Rand McClain not liking creams, preferring injections, and wanting to keep men’s E2 in a tight range of around 20-30. You have Keith Nichols who likes to primarily use creams, and keep free T levels in the 30-50 range, which consequently requires total T in the 1500-2000 range for most guys, and doesn’t use ai’s. You have Dr. Mark Gordon that starts men on 60-80mg, and keeps his doses pretty low, from what I’ve heard. Then you have Dr. Lichten that has a lot of his patients on either injections or pellets. He doesn’t use ai’s. The way he avoids using ai’s, is by adding in very low doses of deca and Winstrol. Winstrol lowers SHBG, and Deca binds to SHBG, which free’s up more testosterone. He says that when u have enough free T, it saturates the receptors that’s E2 wants to bind to, and renders a lot of it useless. So as long as your free T to E2 ratio is high enough, you don’t need to block E2 with an ai, or something along those lines.

Bottom line, all these different methods work. There’s plenty of success stories with all of these different methods. Obviously this is just a personal opinion, but I just think we should be less judgmental to protocols that we’re not used to, and numbers that we’re not used to, and try to just figure out what works best for us as individuals. But I agree, all these different ways of going about it definitely complicates things and can be very distracting and overwhelming.

 

[xqfq]

I could be wrong, but I think the study is using insanely high doses. It said they gave the rats 10mg/ kg 3x/ week. That would be the equivalent of me taking 1900mg/ week. I’m talking about taking 40-50mg/ week of nandrolone. I can’t imagine there being any risks at this dosage.

Some other studies linked here: https://www.reddit.com/r/steroids/comments/5kmur7/nandrolone_and_the_risk_of_left_ventricular/.

Note that the dosage used converts to around 455mg a week according to this comment (https://www.reddit.com/r/steroids/comments/5kmur7/comment/dbpga50)

My bro thinking is also that the guys I trust in the bodybuilding world mostly think 19-nors will screw you up. E.g. people like Dante Trudel (invented terms “blasting and cruising,” popularized subQ testosterone injections), Mike Israetel.

 

[Gman86]

Some other studies linked here: https://www.reddit.com/r/steroids/comments/5kmur7/nandrolone_and_the_risk_of_left_ventricular/.

Note that the dosage used converts to around 455mg a week according to this comment (https://www.reddit.com/r/steroids/comments/5kmur7/comment/dbpga50)

My bro thinking is also that the guys I trust in the bodybuilding world mostly think 19-nors will screw you up. E.g. people like Dante Trudel (invented terms “blasting and cruising,” popularized subQ testosterone injections), Mike Israetel.

Ya I get what ur saying. No offense, but none of this applies at all to using 40-50mg/ week for its joint and anti-inflammatory benefits. Ur absolutely right though. At high dosages I’ve heard of guys dicks completely shutting down due to the high prolactin, and I’ve also heard of guys having issues with dopamine for an extended period of time, even after discontinuing the deca. But if a study is using crazy doses like 455mg/ week, obv that data is completely irrelevant. It’s like doing a study on drinking 8 gallons of water in an hour and the subjects dying, and saying that you could get similar effects when drinking 1 gallon in an hour. Water is good and bad, depending on how much u take. Same thing with deca. It’s good and bad, depending on how much you take. Again, didn’t mean to offend u. But obv blasting and cruising with deca, or using 400+ mg/ week, is completely different than taking 40-50mg/ week. Dr Lichten said he has female patients that get benefits from just 20mg/ week.

 

[Charliebizz]

I see exactly what ur saying. To me, it just seems like there’s more than one way to do this whole HRT thing. Anything different than what we’re used to is going to be ridiculed, that’s just human nature.

You have Dr. Rand McClain not liking creams, preferring injections, and wanting to keep men’s E2 in a tight range of around 20-30. You have Keith Nichols who likes to primarily use creams, and keep free T levels in the 30-50 range, which consequently requires total T in the 1500-2000 range for most guys, and doesn’t use ai’s. You have Dr. Mark Gordon that starts men on 60-80mg, and keeps his doses pretty low, from what I’ve heard. Then you have Dr. Lichten that has a lot of his patients on either injections or pellets. He doesn’t use ai’s. The way he avoids using ai’s, is by adding in very low doses of deca and Winstrol. Winstrol lowers SHBG, and Deca binds to SHBG, which free’s up more testosterone. He says that when u have enough free T, it saturates the receptors that’s E2 wants to bind to, and renders a lot of it useless. So as long as your free T to E2 ratio is high enough, you don’t need to block E2 with an ai, or something along those lines.

Bottom line, all these different methods work. There’s plenty of success stories with all of these different methods. Obviously this is just a personal opinion, but I just think we should be less judgmental to protocols that we’re not used to, and numbers that we’re not used to, and try to just figure out what works best for us as individuals. But I agree, all these different ways of going about it definitely complicates things and can be very distracting and overwhelming.

I get what your saying and I’m very open minded but these guys speak in absolutes and that’s a problem. And a lot of contradictions. You can’t say everyone is different and then in the next breath say everyone should start at 200mg minimum. And then they have a dr named jordan grant saying trt is easy. seems like a nice guy and I’m not bashing him but come on. This shit is all trial and error don’t act like you have it all figured out. Also the fact that estrogen lab numbers can be what ever but they treat the testosterone lab values as gold. You must be over 1000 minimum to see any kind of symptom relief. Just too much bs for me man. But shame on me because it’s not really a hrt or trt group. It’s h.o.t aka p.e.d group. And that’s not what I’m looking for I just wanna feel like a normal 37 year old

 

[antelopers]

I get what your saying and I’m very open minded but these guys speak in absolutes and that’s a problem. And a lot of contradictions. You can’t say everyone is different and then in the next breath say everyone should start at 200mg minimum. And then they have a dr named jordan grant saying trt is easy. seems like a nice guy and I’m not bashing him but come on. This shit is all trial and error don’t act like you have it all figured out. Also the fact that estrogen lab numbers can be what ever but they treat the testosterone lab values as gold. You must be over 1000 minimum to see any kind of symptom relief. Just too much bs for me man. But shame on me because it’s not really a hrt or trt group. It’s h.o.t aka p.e.d group. And that’s not what I’m looking for I just wanna feel like a normal 37 year old

So where do you draw the line between trt and tot/PED?

 

[Charliebizz]

So where do you draw the line between trt and tot/PED?

That’s going to also be a matter of opinion. But for me trt/hrt would be getting into normal range that resolves symptoms of whatever hormone is low causing problems. Guys that have decent levels and are 50 trying to feel 20 again I would call borderline p.e.d use. And by no way am I saying anything wrong with that. But that grey area is what gets guys who are sick in trouble. A guy like me has a lot of other small things going on and I get side effects from almost any hormonal intervention I try. If I listened to these guys I’d be way worse off. Believe me I fell for the traps a few times. I just personally don’t like anyone speaking absolutes in the hormone world. To many pathways and reactions to replacing them to speak like you have it all figured out. That’s all that’s a dangerous thing when you have a following.