Testosterone Propionate - Gauging How Quickly It Is Peaking Based Off EQ

swolg8r · Sep 18, 2024

Hello Gents,

I am currently taking 7mg of test propionate daily. 29G insulin needle subcutaneously every morning around 9-10am. This is a fairly recent switch from test cypionate (10mg ed - subcutaneous, switched a little over a month ago), for which I had not found success in terms of quality of life (libido, energy, etc.). So far, I really am enjoying the energy, mood, and libido that has come along with the propionate ester.

I have noticed that the further away I get from the injection. The better my erection quality. So for instance I inject at 9am and by 10pm-12am, I have rock solid quality but from t+2hours up to about 8 hours after my injection my erections seem rubbery. Cialis quickly fixes this.

Currently waiting on bloodwork but thought I’d give a shout and see if anyone had similar experiences. I remember reading @Cataceous had experienced an extremely quick metabolism of the prop ester at around ~5hrs if I remember correctly. I believe I remember literature saying it can peak up to 14 hours post injection but I could be wrong. So I’m not certain if it’s peaking quickly and spiking hormones such as estradiol and then coming back down later in the evening to which I then experience better sexual function. Or if it’s peaking later in the evening and I am getting the benefits of that scenario.

I do not take ai, hcg. Thanks for any input folks. Cheers

t_spacemonkey · Sep 18, 2024

you can search my older posts for labwork, but it peaks for me around ~4h post. 2h post no difference. i did a test once, something like injection 6am, labcorp 8am, labcorp 10:30am. the 8am was equal to readings where I did not inject at all that day (ED protocol). with the half life ~19h or so, i would expect in my case the peak being 4-12h most likely

swolg8r · Sep 18, 2024

@t_spacemonkey interesting. Maybe my dose is a bit low. If it’s peaking 4-12 hours post injection. That seems to be the window where I start to get better EQ. I realize bloodwork is the only way to tell for sure. Do you test your SHBG? Mine sits in the 40s-50s.

t_spacemonkey · Sep 18, 2024

swolg8r said:
@t_spacemonkey interesting. Maybe my dose is a bit low. If it’s peaking 4-12 hours post injection. That seems to be the window where I start to get better EQ. I realize bloodwork is the only way to tell for sure. Do you test your SHBG? Mine sits in the 40s-50s.

yeah, mine is like 9. there could be a connection here. my dose is 25mg ED currently. for me there was huge libido difference as well vs cypionate. prop feels like superior, but you need ED injections

swolg8r · Sep 18, 2024

Wow ok if I take any dose above 10mg, I get crazy heart rate and blood pressure spikes. I can only imagine what 25mg ed would be like. I have to say I am curious about my bloodwork results as steroid plotter has test levels from 7mg prop per day around 400ng/dL. But any increased dose, my body doesn’t seem to like. This is most likely due to my higher SHBG. I guess with your lower SHBG level you metabolize the test very quickly and need a higher dose. But I’m not sure it paints the whole picture.

Prop is superior, worth the every day injections. Thank you for sharing your experience, rationalizing through it when comparing our opposite SHBG levels makes me believe I may need to come down even more in dosage.

t_spacemonkey · Sep 18, 2024

swolg8r said:
Wow ok if I take any dose above 10mg, I get crazy heart rate and blood pressure spikes. I can only imagine what 25mg ed would be like. I have to say I am curious about my bloodwork results as steroid plotter has test levels from 7mg prop per day around 400ng/dL. But any increased dose, my body doesn’t seem to like. This is most likely due to my higher SHBG. I guess with your lower SHBG level you metabolize the test very quickly and need a higher dose. But I’m not sure it paints the whole picture.

Prop is superior, worth the every day injections. Thank you for sharing your experience, rationalizing through it when comparing our opposite SHBG levels makes me believe I may need to come down even more in dosage.

so with my low shbg i get ultra high total/free test values. my peak is like 1500+ total 75+ free. I would think that with high shbg you number would be lower? i get into trouble when i inject above 35mg as I get jittery/anxious. but when I go below 20mg i get really slumpy and don't feel like I do TRT at all. generally I am very sensitive to androgens and can't do anything else, deca, npp etc...all goes south.
but 10mg seems like your personal max. i think e2 plays a role here, how is your e2? i wonder if the high dose T causes too much conversion and this is what causes issues not T?

swolg8r · Sep 18, 2024

I’m under the impression that if you have low shbg, androgens and estrogens that normally are bound and transported via this molecule are more freely available in the bloodstream and thus make their way out of the body more quickly. Which would explain your higher free test/total test values? I agree with you that they would be lower based on my SHBG values. I also think it’s an estrogen spike issue. I’m gonna update my estradiol reading when I get it. I’ve been waiting 6 days for it through Quest.

madman · Sep 18, 2024

swolg8r said:
Hello Gents,

I am currently taking 7mg of test propionate daily. 29G insulin needle subcutaneously every morning around 9-10am. This is a fairly recent switch from test cypionate (10mg ed - subcutaneous, switched a little over a month ago), for which I had not found success in terms of quality of life (libido, energy, etc.). So far, I really am enjoying the energy, mood, and libido that has come along with the propionate ester.

I have noticed that the further away I get from the injection. The better my erection quality. So for instance I inject at 9am and by 10pm-12am, I have rock solid quality but from t+2hours up to about 8 hours after my injection my erections seem rubbery. Cialis quickly fixes this.

Currently waiting on bloodwork but thought I’d give a shout and see if anyone had similar experiences. I remember reading @Cataceous had experienced an extremely quick metabolism of the prop ester at around ~5hrs if I remember correctly. I believe I remember literature saying it can peak up to 14 hours post injection but I could be wrong. So I’m not certain if it’s peaking quickly and spiking hormones such as estradiol and then coming back down later in the evening to which I then experience better sexual function. Or if it’s peaking later in the evening and I am getting the benefits of that scenario.

I do not take ai, hcg. Thanks for any input folks. Cheers

This is based on strictly IM let alone you need to pay attention to the dose used.

Going back decades ago!

Pharmacology of testosterone preparations
H.M. Behre, C. Wang, D.J. Handelsman and E. Nieschlag

14.3.6.1 Testosterone propionate

Single-dose pharmacokinetics of 50 mg testosterone propionate after intramuscular injection to seven hypogonadal patients and the best-fitted pharmacokinetic profile are shown in Fig. 14.4 (Nieschlag et al. 1976). Maximal testosterone levels in the supraphysiological range were seen shortly after injection (40.2 nmol/l, tmax =14 h). Testosterone levels below the normal range were observed following day 2 (57 h) after injection. The calculated values for AUC were 1843 nmol ∗ h/l, for MRT1.5 d and 0.8 d for terminal half-life (Table 14.2).

Based on single-dose pharmacokinetic parameters, a multiple-dose pharmacokinetic simulation was performed. Expected testosterone serum concentrations after multiple dosing of 50 mg testosterone propionate twice per week (e.g. injections Mondays and Thursdays, 8.00 h) are shown in Fig. 14.5. Shortly after injection high supraphysiological testosterone serum concentrations of up to 45 nmol/l are observed. At the end of the injection interval (three and four days, respectively) testosterone serum concentrations below the lower range of normal testosterone values are projected (7 nmol/l and 3 nmol/l, respectively).

Judged by the data from pharmacokinetic analysis and simulation, administration of testosterone propionate is not suitable for substitution therapy of male hypogonadism because of its short-term kinetics resulting in wide fluctuations of testosterone serum concentrations and maximal injection intervals of three days for the 50 mg dose.

Basing the peak on EQ (erection quality) is not going to cut it.

You need labs to see what peak/trough you are hitting on such dose!

Just to be clear here when it comes to the PKs the length of the side-chain ester plays a major role.

The carrier oil used can have an impact on the half-life.

Behre study:

* It has been shown that different Physico-chemical properties of the oil used as a vehicle (16), as well as different injection volumes (17), may influence the kinetics of administered androgens.

Again there are many other factors that affect the rate at which testosterone is released from the oily depot at the injection site.

Sub-q vs IM, the volume of injection, injection depth, site of injection, lymphatic flow, and the concentration of BOH (benzyl alcohol) is other possible factors that can affect absorption rates of the esterified hormone.

The only way to know where your true peak sits would be testing hourly post-injection!

Smart move starting out on a sensible low daily dose!

Yes injecting 25-30 mg TP would be overkill as most would still be hitting a high let alone in some cases an absurdly high trough FT on such!

Look over the posts on pg.4

Tips on how to blend propionate with enanthate (or cypionate)?

@Cataceous, as you know, I am interested in following your logic. I am currently not on either ester. I was planning on starting both esters simultaneously. As I read your post above, however, it sounds like you did this one ester at a time until you started the blend. Was this by design or were...

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Random thoughts/questions regarding Test and AAS...

Like many of my brothers on this forum I/we have been struggling to get dialed in on TRT..... and the thought process has usual been to try to replicate the normal levels/diurnal rhythm of the body to maintain peak homeostasis, however, even with seemingly normal Total/Free T, E levels, etc.. we...

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Testosterone propionate supposedly the best ester?

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Cataceous · Sep 19, 2024

swolg8r said:
I’m under the impression that if you have low shbg, androgens and estrogens that normally are bound and transported via this molecule are more freely available in the bloodstream and thus make their way out of the body more quickly. Which would explain your higher free test/total test values? ...

In fact it is the dose rate or production rate of testosterone that directly drives free testosterone levels; free testosterone is pretty independent of SHBG. SHBG is actually driving total testosterone, because it serves as a holding reservoir for T. Nonetheless, it's been hypothesized that low SHBG can cause issues by reducing the intracellular residence time of testosterone. It shouldn't be surprising that SHBG is like most other endogenous bodily substances, with either low or high levels being problematic.

swolg8r said:
... I remember reading @Cataceous had experienced an extremely quick metabolism of the prop ester at around ~5hrs if I remember correctly. I believe I remember literature saying it can peak up to 14 hours post injection but I could be wrong. ...

It is the absorption rate, not the metabolic rate, that is the driving factor here. I do see a fast rise in serum testosterone with injections of testosterone propionate. Levels are already pretty high two hours post-injection, and stay similar or higher up until around 4-6 hours post-injection.

swolg8r · Sep 20, 2024

Hello everyone and thanks for all of your responses. Sorry I’ve been busy and haven’t been able to reply back to each of you. I thought I’d attach my sensitive estradiol test which I received this morning. Without a doubt I am extremely surprised at this reading based off such a conservative dose of test. But this possibly does explain the issues I’ve been having. This is 27 hours post injection. I can only imagine it’s much higher than this as the propionate ester is peaking. I only had estradiol tested. I did not pull labs for testosterone. Although now I feel that is a mistake. I guess I can always retest. Thanks for any input you have.

Wolverine · Sep 23, 2024

swolg8r said:
Hello Gents,

I am currently taking 7mg of test propionate daily. 29G insulin needle subcutaneously every morning around 9-10am. This is a fairly recent switch from test cypionate (10mg ed - subcutaneous, switched a little over a month ago), for which I had not found success in terms of quality of life (libido, energy, etc.). So far, I really am enjoying the energy, mood, and libido that has come along with the propionate ester.

I have noticed that the further away I get from the injection. The better my erection quality. So for instance I inject at 9am and by 10pm-12am, I have rock solid quality but from t+2hours up to about 8 hours after my injection my erections seem rubbery. Cialis quickly fixes this.

Currently waiting on bloodwork but thought I’d give a shout and see if anyone had similar experiences. I remember reading @Cataceous had experienced an extremely quick metabolism of the prop ester at around ~5hrs if I remember correctly. I believe I remember literature saying it can peak up to 14 hours post injection but I could be wrong. So I’m not certain if it’s peaking quickly and spiking hormones such as estradiol and then coming back down later in the evening to which I then experience better sexual function. Or if it’s peaking later in the evening and I am getting the benefits of that scenario.

I do not take ai, hcg. Thanks for any input folks. Cheers

What length needle do you use and where do you inject subq? Im using Empower prop. Just had labs. 15mg daily 1/2in needle outer quad. 5 hours post injection:

Total T: 1458 (upper limit is 916)
Free T: 30.2 (upper limit is 18.1)
DHT: 142 (upper limit is 85)
Estradiol: 42.3 (upper limit 42.6)
Estradiol Sensitive: 35.9 (Upper limit 35)
SHBG: Not measure but usually around 20

Not feeling great. Obviously need to reduce dosage. Like you, I notice better EQ further time away from injection. I'm going down to 10mg subq 5/16in needle in belly.

madman · Sep 23, 2024

Wolverine said:
What length needle do you use and where do you inject subq? Im using Empower prop. Just had labs. 15mg daily 1/2in needle outer quad. 5 hours post injection:

Total T: 1458 (upper limit is 916)
Free T: 30.2 (upper limit is 18.1)
DHT: 142 (upper limit is 85)
Estradiol: 42.3 (upper limit 42.6)
Estradiol Sensitive: 35.9 (Upper limit 35)
SHBG: Not measure but usually around 20

Not feeling great. Obviously need to reduce dosage. Like you, I notice better EQ further time away from injection. I'm going down to 10mg subq 5/16in needle in belly.

You most likely had your FT tested using the known to be inaccurate direct immunoassay which also tends to underestimate FT and seeing as the upper limit for the reference range you posted is 18.1 which is the top-end for Labcorp's direct immunoassay in men >59 (y) reference range (6.6-18.1 pg/mL).

144980: Testosterone, Free, Direct | Labcorp

Labcorp test details for Testosterone, Free, Direct

www.labcorp.com

You would need to have your FT tested using the most accurate assay which would be the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis especially in cases of altered SHBG in order to know where it truly sits.

Even then as I have stated numerous times on the forum you always have the option of using/relying upon calculated FT which would be the linear law-of-mass action cFTV as it has already been validated twice (1st time was done using TT/SHBG assays no longer available) and was then eventually re-validated using current state-of-the-art ED method (higher order reference method) let alone more recently against CDCs standardized Equilibrium Dialysis assay.

Yes it tends to overestimate slightly but it is nothing to fret over!

*Calculated free T using high-quality T and SHBG assays has been considered the most useful for clinical purposes [99]. All algorithms suffer from some inaccuracies, including the variable quality of SHBG IAs [100], not replicating the non-linear nature of T-SHBG binding, different and inaccurate association constants for SHBG and albumin binding [101], and variable agreement with equilibrium dialysis results [99,100]. However, until further developments in the field materialize, the linear model algorithms [in particular, the most used Vermeulen equation [102]] appear to give, despite a small systematic positive bias, acceptable data for the clinical management and research[37,103].

If we take your whopping TT 1458 ng/dL, lowish SHBG 20 nmol/L and Albumin 4.3 g/dL (default) seeing as you are injecting TP daily and labs were done 5 hrs post-injection then your FT 47.2 ng/dL (most likely around peak) would be absurdly high.

Again this is most likely around your peak so keep in mind your trough 24 hrs post-injection will most likely be 40-50% lower and the only way to know where it truly sits would be testing at true trough.

Even then your true trough (24 hrs) post-injection would most likely still be high.

Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator

Wolverine · Sep 23, 2024

madman said:
You most likely had your FT tested using the known to be inaccurate direct immunoassay which also tends to underestimate FT and seeing as the upper limit for the reference range you posted is 18.1 which is the top-end for Labcorp's direct immunoassay in men >59 (y) reference range (6.6-18.1 pg/mL).

144980: Testosterone, Free, Direct | Labcorp

Labcorp test details for Testosterone, Free, Direct

www.labcorp.com

View attachment 47608

You would need to have your FT tested using the most accurate assay which would be the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis especially in cases of altered SHBG in order to know where it truly sits.

Even then as I have stated numerous times on the forum you always have the option of using/relying upon calculated FT which would be the linear law-of-mass action cFTV as it has already been validated twice (1st time was done using TT/SHBG assays no longer available) and was then eventually re-validated using current state-of-the-art ED method (higher order reference method) let alone more recently against CDCs standardized Equilibrium Dialysis assay.

Yes it tends to overestimate slightly but it is nothing to fret over!

*Calculated free T using high-quality T and SHBG assays has been considered the most useful for clinical purposes [99]. All algorithms suffer from some inaccuracies, including the variable quality of SHBG IAs [100], not replicating the non-linear nature of T-SHBG binding, different and inaccurate association constants for SHBG and albumin binding [101], and variable agreement with equilibrium dialysis results [99,100]. However, until further developments in the field materialize, the linear model algorithms [in particular, the most used Vermeulen equation [102]] appear to give, despite a small systematic positive bias, acceptable data for the clinical management and research[37,103].

If we take your whopping TT 1458 ng/dL, lowish SHBG 20 nmol/L and Albumin 4.3 g/dL (default) seeing as you are injecting TP daily and labs were done 5 hrs post-injection then your FT 47.2 ng/dL (most likely around peak) would be absurdly high.

Again this is most likely around your peak so keep in mind your trough 24 hrs post-injection will most likely be 40-50% lower and the only way to know where it truly sits would be testing at true trough.

Even then your true trough (24 hrs) post-injection would most likely still be high.

Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator

View attachment 47606

Thanks Madman! Always appreciate your input! I did use Labcorp. Definitely need to lower my dose.

madman · Sep 23, 2024

Wolverine said:
Thanks Madman! Always appreciate your input! I did use Labcorp. Definitely need to lower my dose.

You know your body so if you feel unwell or are experiencing any sides cosmetic or elevated blood markers such as RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit then you easily have room to bring down your FT if need be.

Do what you feel is best for you!

swolg8r · Sep 24, 2024

Wolverine said:
What length needle do you use and where do you inject subq? Im using Empower prop. Just had labs. 15mg daily 1/2in needle outer quad. 5 hours post injection:

Total T: 1458 (upper limit is 916)
Free T: 30.2 (upper limit is 18.1)
DHT: 142 (upper limit is 85)
Estradiol: 42.3 (upper limit 42.6)
Estradiol Sensitive: 35.9 (Upper limit 35)
SHBG: Not measure but usually around 20

Not feeling great. Obviously need to reduce dosage. Like you, I notice better EQ further time away from injection. I'm going down to 10mg subq 5/16in needle in belly.

Hello, I use a half-inch needle between 27-30Ga. Subcutaneous in glutes, usually very shallow (needle is almost pointing horizontally). I just reduced my dose to 6mg test prop based off my results. I would recommend that you drop by 1mg every 5-10 days until you start noticing increased hardness in your EQ. I generally know how a new dosage of prop is going to feel within a few days. EQ is generally quick to recover once you hit that range.

Forty2 · Sep 25, 2024

I wonder if you would feel better injecting test prop right before bed ?

Willyt · Sep 25, 2024

swolg8r said:
Hello Gents,

I am currently taking 7mg of test propionate daily. 29G insulin needle subcutaneously every morning around 9-10am. This is a fairly recent switch from test cypionate (10mg ed - subcutaneous, switched a little over a month ago), for which I had not found success in terms of quality of life (libido, energy, etc.). So far, I really am enjoying the energy, mood, and libido that has come along with the propionate ester.

I have noticed that the further away I get from the injection. The better my erection quality. So for instance I inject at 9am and by 10pm-12am, I have rock solid quality but from t+2hours up to about 8 hours after my injection my erections seem rubbery. Cialis quickly fixes this.

Currently waiting on bloodwork but thought I’d give a shout and see if anyone had similar experiences. I remember reading @Cataceous had experienced an extremely quick metabolism of the prop ester at around ~5hrs if I remember correctly. I believe I remember literature saying it can peak up to 14 hours post injection but I could be wrong. So I’m not certain if it’s peaking quickly and spiking hormones such as estradiol and then coming back down later in the evening to which I then experience better sexual function. Or if it’s peaking later in the evening and I am getting the benefits of that scenario.

I do not take ai, hcg. Thanks for any input folks. Cheers

I have similar SHBG as you and on 8mg daily tested at 1200 TT @ 4hrs. This is why straight prop is a roller coaster. Hence the blended protocol that @Cataceous pioneered.

swolg8r · Sep 29, 2024

Willyt said:
I have similar SHBG as you and on 8mg daily tested at 1200 TT @ 4hrs. This is why straight prop is a roller coaster. Hence the blended protocol that @Cataceous pioneered.

Yeah Willy it’s been quite a ride. I’m kinda enjoying learning so much about my body but I’m definitely looking to dial in by end of year. Maybe I’ll try one of those concoctions

Testosterone Propionate - Gauging How Quickly It Is Peaking Based Off EQ

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