Test Prop @ 15mg ED/SQ vs Test Cyp @ 20mg ED/SQ... Results.....

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BillyJ03z

Active Member
Below are my Lab results from my use of Test Cyp @ 20mg ed/SQ for 8 months and Test Prop @ 15mg ed/sq for about 3 months.

Test Cyp @ 20mg ED/SQ (8 months)

Testosterone Total-Male

609.0 ng/dL

300.0 - 890.0 ng/dL


Free Testosterone

168.7 pg/mL

47.0 - 244.0 pg/mL


Estradiol, Serum

72 pg/mL

<=40 pg/mL

H


Sex Hormone Binding Globulin

21 nmol/L

11 - 80 nmol/L


*Doctor unfortunately didn't Test DHT...




Test Prop @ 15mg ED/SQ (3 months)

Testosterone, Total Male

531.4 ng/dL

300.0 - 890.0 ng/dL


Testosterone, Free Male

149.0 pg/mL

47.0 - 244.0 pg/mL


Estradiol, by TMS

51.6 pg/mL

10.0 - 42.0 pg/mL

H


5 A DIHYDROTESTOSTERONE

652.3 pg/mL

106.0 - 719.0 pg/mL


Sex Hormone Binding Globulin

20 nmol/L

11 - 80 nmol/L


*I take 3 grains Armour Thyroid to raise my SHBG from single digits into 20's... Also the Thyroid puts all my Lipids/Cholesterol in range...




Results- Even on theses normal Testosterone results I am having horrible sleep, energy, cognitive, low libido issues.... Im thinking high E2 is causing these issues, because of low SHBG and I could probably look to lower DHT a little bit as well...
 
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Try IM. Some people develop a low grade allergic reaction when doing SQ, with the symptoms you describe. Similar to adrenal depletion as all the reserves are spent fighting the allergy. The allergy may not always manifest itself in a painfull lump. I cant be 100% sure though as usually those individuals have high SHBG from in my own observation.

But just give IM a go for a while at the same dosage and go from there. Im betting your lab numbers may even improve on IM, they are quite low for the dosage being taken.
 
As for the estrogen, def on the high side considering the lowish TT levels. The ratio is def not in your favour.

Failing the above mentioned IM trial, I would experiment with something like 1/4 Arimidex a few times. If symptoms alleviate for a couple days and then return, and again alleviate after taking another 1/4 Arimidex, we will know that the culprit is E2 and then you can focus on that.
 
Mr.63 said:
These numbers are still low AF.. You have a lot of room to up your dose! No wonder you still have symptoms.
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No I lowered my dose because I had high (and super physiologic) levels for almost 8 of my 11 years on TRT and I felt nothing but shit the entire time... this is the first time Im making a concerted effort to keep my TRT dosing as close to normal as my body would make...
 
Typically a serum testosterone trough of over 500 ng/dL from daily propionate means the dose is high; peaks are expected to be two to three times higher. You can try to verify by measuring at 2-4 hours post-injection. Fifteen mg of propionate daily is equivalent to 126 mg T cypionate per week, providing about double the amount of testosterone the average healthy young man makes naturally. As a next step I would try dropping to 10 mg/day of the propionate. It's ok to have lowish numbers at the trough. Even healthy natural men can appear hypogonadal if you measure their trough values.
 
Cataceous said:
Typically a serum testosterone trough of over 500 ng/dL from daily propionate means the dose is high; peaks are expected to be two to three times higher. You can try to verify by measuring at 2-4 hours post-injection. Fifteen mg of propionate daily is equivalent to 126 mg T cypionate per week, providing about double the amount of testosterone the average healthy young man makes naturally. As a next step I would try dropping to 10 mg/day of the propionate. It's ok to have lowish numbers at the trough. Even healthy natural men can appear hypogonadal if you measure their trough values.
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Wouldn't 15mg Prop = 105mg actually 84mg per week (pure test minus ester) 10mg = 70mg actually 56mg per week (pure test minus ester).....

I spoke to my doctor and on my next blood test in a few weeks we are going to measure 12 hr post injection... I'm trying to see what my peak would look like 12hr post inj to see if I should be injecting at night instead of mornings...
 
BillyJ03z said:
Wouldn't 15mg Prop = 105mg actually 84mg per week (pure test minus ester) 10mg = 70mg actually 56mg per week (pure test minus ester).....

I spoke to my doctor and on my next blood test in a few weeks we are going to measure 12 hr post injection... I'm trying to see what my peak would look like 12hr post inj to see if I should be injecting at night instead of mornings...
Click to expand...
If you are on daily injections and those are your numbers, I would not lower the dosage. You are not likely to experience symptom relief at lower dosages.

I am assuming you have tried other injection frequencies besides ED dosing? How did you feel in comparison?

Do you use HCG?
 
BillyJ03z said:
Wouldn't 15mg Prop = 105mg actually 84mg per week (pure test minus ester) 10mg = 70mg actually 56mg per week (pure test minus ester).....

I spoke to my doctor and on my next blood test in a few weeks we are going to measure 12 hr post injection... I'm trying to see what my peak would look like 12hr post inj to see if I should be injecting at night instead of mornings...
Click to expand...
Those numbers are pretty close. I use a figure of 83.7% testosterone in T propionate, so 105 mg is 88 mg pure T. Cypionate is 70% testosterone, which is where the figure of 126 mg/week comes from. But look at the daily figures: the average healthy young guy makes 6-7 mg T per day. Fifteen milligrams propionate is 12.6 mg testosterone. Ten milligrams propionate is 8.4 mg testosterone, still well above average healthy production.

My results are far from definitive, but they do suggest a peak in serum testosterone from propionate occurring early, as in 2-4 hours post-injection. I expect at 12 hours you could be looking at 60% of peak or so.
 
Cataceous said:
Those numbers are pretty close. I use a figure of 83.7% testosterone in T propionate, so 105 mg is 88 mg pure T. Cypionate is 70% testosterone, which is where the figure of 126 mg/week comes from. But look at the daily figures: the average healthy young guy makes 6-7 mg T per day. Fifteen milligrams propionate is 12.6 mg testosterone. Ten milligrams propionate is 8.4 mg testosterone, still well above average healthy production.

My results are far from definitive, but they do suggest a peak in serum testosterone from propionate occurring early, as in 2-4 hours post-injection. I expect at 12 hours you could be looking at 60% of peak or so.
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I will see if I can draw blood at 6 and 12 hour post injection....
 
BillyJ03z said:
I will see if I can draw blood at 6 and 12 hour post injection....
Click to expand...
Thanks for the post with tests! Great stuff.

I have been injecting daily Prop for the last year or so at doses ranging from 4mg to 12mg. As Cat mentioned, your peak is going to be far higher than trough on daily Prop. I tested over 1200 TT at peak (measured 4-5 hours after injection) on only 8mg per day although I do have higher SHBG than you (35-40).

Do you feel any different on daily Prop than Cypionate? My guess is that your sleep will improve if you continue to lower the dose to 10mg and inject first thing in morning so you trough out over night.
 
Willyt said:
Thanks for the post with tests! Great stuff.

I have been injecting daily Prop for the last year or so at doses ranging from 4mg to 12mg. As Cat mentioned, your peak is going to be far higher than trough on daily Prop. I tested over 1200 TT at peak (measured 4-5 hours after injection) on only 8mg per day although I do have higher SHBG than you (35-40).

Do you feel any different on daily Prop than Cypionate? My guess is that your sleep will improve if you continue to lower the dose to 10mg and inject first thing in morning so you trough out over night.
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So far not much difference with my issues... as of today (Jan 1), I dropped to 10mg Prop..... I meet with my doc this friday and I will schedule my blood draw for the following monday... I'm curious to see the peak times 6 and 12 post-inj.... I'm hoping to it does have a big impact on sleep for me...
 
Since this thread is centered on low dose, frequent injections, can I take a brief detour and ask a related question (didn't want to start a brand new thread). I am likely the most experienced Natesto user around here. I seem to always migrate back to it, but I also continue to search for a more convenient protocol. I prioritize efficacy and lack of side effects over convenience. Within efficacy, I have further priorities. Sooo, I am once again considering low dose, frequent enanthate.

I assume that on any given morning, I am bottomed out at pre-TRT levels. Starting injections for me might be similar to a hypogonadal person starting TRT for the first time. If I were to start a low dose every other day injection protocol, it would take 10-14 days match daily physiologic production. That will be unpleasant. Would it make sense to consider a loading dose (one bigger dose) followed by low dose every other day? Or, I could overlap Natesto while starting the low dose injections.

@Cataceous (I know, I am a glutton for punishment for even considering this road again), thoughts? I imagine that most guys who do low dose frequent injections are veterans - ie, they are moving from a higher dose, more periodic regimen to a lower dose regimen. In this scenario, their non-physiologic levels are dropping back to ideal levels. I'd be going the opposite direction. Wondering how to go about this?

Edit: Apologies to OP for hijacking. Hope you find some satisfaction with TRT. If you do the usual and appropriate troubleshooting, and don't find answers, I recommend giving Natesto a try. Don't be scared off by my line of questioning. Natesto is a great option. I often explore ways to find a "better" overall protocol, only to end back up on Natesto.
 
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Front loading is a failed and flawed method. Simply my opinion, but it would probably be worth using your Natesto to bridge the uncomfortability of waiting for enanthate to build in your system. In other words, use the Natesto alongside the low dose daily injections until the enanthate is sufficiently built up in your system, then drop the Natesto.
 
Fortunate said:
Since this thread is centered on low dose, frequent injections, can I take a brief detour and ask a related question (didn't want to start a brand new thread). I am likely the most experienced Natesto user around here. I seem to always migrate back to it, but I also continue to search for a more convenient protocol. I prioritize efficacy and lack of side effects over convenience. Within efficacy, I have further priorities. Sooo, I am once again considering low dose, frequent enanthate.

I assume that on any given morning, I am bottomed out at pre-TRT levels. Starting injections for me might be similar to a hypogonadal person starting TRT for the first time. If I were to start a low dose every other day injection protocol, it would take 10-14 days match daily physiologic production. That will be unpleasant. Would it make sense to consider a loading dose (one bigger dose) followed by low dose every other day? Or, I could overlap Natesto while starting the low dose injections.

@Cataceous (I know, I am a glutton for punishment for even considering this road again), thoughts? I imagine that most guys who do low dose frequent injections are veterans - ie, they are moving from a higher dose, more periodic regimen to a lower dose regimen. In this scenario, their non-physiologic levels are dropping back to ideal levels. I'd be going the opposite direction. Wondering how to go about this?

Edit: Apologies to OP for hijacking. Hope you find some satisfaction with TRT. If you do the usual and appropriate troubleshooting, and don't find answers, I recommend giving Natesto a try. Don't be scared off by my line of questioning. Natesto is a great option. I often explore ways to find a "better" overall protocol, only to end back up on Natesto.
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Are you primary or secondary? I’d say low dose clomid or enclomid plus natesto is a nice option. Without hcg obviously as that would negate most of the point of clomid/enclomid. Finding the lowest dose of all obviously.
 
Based on initial set of pre-TRT labs, I would be diagnosed as secondary. I was on hCG/Natesto combo for years. I recently stopped hCG for a few reasons. So far, my skin is way less oily, and I don't think I feel any more hypogonadic, but time will tell.

I will ultimately be satisfied with Natesto if an injection protocol that I tolerate simply doesn't exist.
 
Fortunate said:
...
I assume that on any given morning, I am bottomed out at pre-TRT levels. Starting injections for me might be similar to a hypogonadal person starting TRT for the first time. If I were to start a low dose every other day injection protocol, it would take 10-14 days match daily physiologic production. That will be unpleasant. Would it make sense to consider a loading dose (one bigger dose) followed by low dose every other day? Or, I could overlap Natesto while starting the low dose injections.

@Cataceous (I know, I am a glutton for punishment for even considering this road again), thoughts? I imagine that most guys who do low dose frequent injections are veterans - ie, they are moving from a higher dose, more periodic regimen to a lower dose regimen. In this scenario, their non-physiologic levels are dropping back to ideal levels. I'd be going the opposite direction. Wondering how to go about this?
...
Click to expand...
If you really want to do it then a loading dose is reasonable, as is overlapping Natesto with the start of injections. Either should reduce the risk of feeling hypogonadal. If you assume a half-life for your enanthate then it's straightforward to calculate a loading dose that in theory leads to immediately having daily testosterone absorption match steady state conditions. In practice it's not so precise, but it probably would still be adequate. The rate of decline of endogenous production is a wildcard, and would be a reason to lower the loading dose a little.

I have another post on calculating the loading dose, but it'll be easier to recreate the equations than to track it down. Suppose the half-life in days of your drug is HL. Then the remaining fraction per day is 0.5^(1 / HL). Call this F. For EOD dosing of size D the post-dose residual R of all previous doses at steady state is R = D * (1 + F^2 + F^4 + F^6 +...). Solving yields R = D / (1 - F^2). In other words, your loading dose is R and subsequently you take dose D as usual. For example, if you plan to take 10 mg (D) every other day and the half-life is five days then the first dose for loading (R) is 41 mg.
 
Here are my results for 10 hr post Prop @ 15mg injection..... (inject at 7am/ tested at 5pm).

Testosterone, Male

1,199.2 ng/dL

280.0-1,100.0 ng/dL

H

Sex Hormone Binding Globulin

22 nmol/L

11 - 80 nmol/L

 

Testosterone, Free

321 pg/mL

47 - 244 pg/mL

H

    

Testosterone, Percent Free

2.7 %

1.6 - 2.9 %

 

Testosterone, Bioavailable

866 ng/dL

131 - 682 ng/dL

H


I have also been using 20mg Progesterone cream Eod....

Progesterone

0.76 ng/mL

0.28 - 1.22 ng/mL


I took Adex @ .25mg twice week for 3 1/2 weeks to get my E2 down.. (it was 51 previous)

Estradiol

36 pg/mL

<41 pg/mL


I will now officially drop the test Prop to 10mg ed/sq......
 
Willyt said:
Thanks for the post with tests! Great stuff.

I have been injecting daily Prop for the last year or so at doses ranging from 4mg to 12mg. As Cat mentioned, your peak is going to be far higher than trough on daily Prop. I tested over 1200 TT at peak (measured 4-5 hours after injection) on only 8mg per day although I do have higher SHBG than you (35-40).

Do you feel any different on daily Prop than Cypionate? My guess is that your sleep will improve if you continue to lower the dose to 10mg and inject first thing in morning so you trough out over night.
Click to expand...
My 10hr post injection results aren't too bad, assuming it didn't peak too much higher in the prior 10 hours (10-12 hours seems to be the documented peak times from my research).... I think Prop @ 8-10mg would be the ideal dose, but I'm also wondering to achieve more steady levels without huge peaks would be going back to Cyp @ 10-12mg/ed/sq or even Cyp 80/Prop 20 blend @ ed/sq @ 10mg/ed/sq would be better to hold the levels more stable (less drastic peaks?)..
 
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BillyJ03z said:
My 10hr post injection results aren't too bad, assuming it didn't peak too much higher in the prior 10 hours (10-12 hours seems to be the documented peak times from my research)....
Click to expand...
I'd be interested in learning about sources that actually took measurements at times under 10 hours post-injection. This excludes Nieschlag. Shinohara and Fujioka used a propionate formulation without benzyl alcohol. We've seen with Xyosted that an ester prepared without BA can have double the apparent half-life. Shinohara and Fujioka also used a whopping 1 mL of sesame oil to deliver the 25 mg of propionate. This also could slow absorption.
 
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