DHT: How High is Too High

[Systemlord]

Nobody talks about hair loss due to DHT in this thread...

Hair loss isn't solely due to high DHT, it's a contributor but not the primary cause of hair loss.

 

[Aragorn]

Hair loss isn't solely due to high DHT, it's a contributor but not the primary cause of hair loss.

In my case DHT was the major catalyst. My hair was thick untill I started T cream to scrotum in addition to Cyp, as instructed by my doctor. My DHT was over 100, and this is when my hair rapidly started to gray and fall out. I'm back to TRT without cream to scrotum this time and I think I can't avoid continuation of the same story...

 

[FunkOdyssey]

In my case DHT was the major catalyst. My hair was thick untill I started T cream to scrotum in addition to Cyp, as instructed by my doctor. My DHT was over 100, and this is when my hair rapidly started to gray and fall out. I'm back to TRT without cream to scrotum this time and I think I can't avoid continuation of the same story...

You added cream on top of your injections - did you reduce your injection dose? I would suggest the increased free T was primarily responsible for your hair loss, not the DHT.

 

[Aragorn]

You added cream on top of your injections - did you reduce your injection dose? I would suggest the increased free T was primarily responsible for your hair loss, not the DHT.

No, I didn't decrease injection dose. Why free T and not DHT responsible for hair loss? Isn't DHT the main hormonal culprit for hair loss?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

No, I didn't decrease injection dose. Why free T and not DHT responsible for hair loss? Isn't DHT the main hormonal culprit for hair loss?

DHT in the scalp, not DHT in the serum - discussed further in this post:

Post in thread 'Maximus Native T: Gel vs Oral'

Sunday at 12:25 PM

My concern regarding the topical T is the increased potential for hair loss due to more of an increase in DHT than in the oral or injectable - and the risk of BPH when I just had a scan that showed BPH. Should I opt then for the oral - or should I try out the topical first? I'd rather not have to use a PDE5i if I don't have to to.

First, oral testosterone produces supraphysiologic serum DHT levels just like topical TRT. However, elevated serum levels of DHT don't usually translate to increased hair loss like you might expect. In androgen-sensitive tissues like the skin, prostate...

• FunkOdyssey

You spiked your free T quite high by adding cream on top of your existing injection protocol.

 

[Aragorn]

DHT in the scalp, not DHT in the serum - discussed further in this post:

Post in thread 'Maximus Native T: Gel vs Oral'

Sunday at 12:25 PM

My concern regarding the topical T is the increased potential for hair loss due to more of an increase in DHT than in the oral or injectable - and the risk of BPH when I just had a scan that showed BPH. Should I opt then for the oral - or should I try out the topical first? I'd rather not have to use a PDE5i if I don't have to to.

First, oral testosterone produces supraphysiologic serum DHT levels just like topical TRT. However, elevated serum levels of DHT don't usually translate to increased hair loss like you might expect. In androgen-sensitive tissues like the skin, prostate...

• FunkOdyssey

You spiked your free T quite high by adding cream on top of your existing injection protocol.

Are there links on how high free T causes hair loss?

 

[SS1LE]

My DHT a few years ago used to be middle of the range , now it is 3x times the top of the range, For what reason I don't know. Over the last two years I have lost more hair on the top of my head and gained more on my body. I also have been dealing with low E2 issues, Im starting to think the high DHT levels are the cause of my issues. Im looking at natural supplements to help lower DHT. I think random boosts of DHT help some, but constant high DHT causes issues.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Are there links on how high free T causes hair loss?

The mechanism is conversion of testosterone to DHT by 5-alpha reductase within the scalp tissue.

Some evidence to support the concept that serum DHT is not meaningful for hair loss compared to locally produced DHT: topical 5-alpha reductase inhibitors applied to the scalp are able to produce equivalent results to the same drug administered orally in higher dosage, despite serum DHT levels that are much higher using the topical form.

 

[Seagal]

I'm not sure if there is a study that looked at elevated DHT in relation to T and hair loss.
I can imagine that serum DHT can add up to the DHT produced within tissues.
The experiments with DHT gel somehow show that serum DHT has an effect. That's similar to the claims about estrogen being a paracrine hormone.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I'm not sure if there is a study that looked at elevated DHT in relation to T and hair loss.
I can imagine that serum DHT can add up to the DHT produced within tissues.
The experiments with DHT gel somehow show that serum DHT has an effect. That's similar to the claims about estrogen being a paracrine hormone.

It would vary with the tissue. No doubt higher serum DHT has CNS effects that are subjectively obvious; bone is another tissue directly affected by serum DHT in an animal model: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/8756328296001354

The prostate is your prototypical androgen-sensitive tissue that is completely impervious to serum DHT with 100% local control of DHT production. Other tissues may fall into one of these categories, or land somewhere in between with influences of both serum and locally produced DHT.

 

[SS1LE]

What would be some safe supplements to try to lower DHT? At the moment I’m thinking pumpkin seed oil and qeurcetin. My DHT is obviously to high, but yet my PSA is always under 0.5 on all tests so at least my prostate doesn’t care about high DHT. It seems to affect my estradiol, hair changes but I guess that could be age, but I do get seborrheic dermatitis on my face a lot these past 2 years that I had to get a prescription cream for. I’m thinking now it’s from the DHT as well.

 

[Jerajera]

My DHT a few years ago used to be middle of the range , now it is 3x times the top of the range, For what reason I don't know.

Just speculating here, but Progesterone is known to go down significantly for some (many?) men on TRT, and Progesterone blocks 5-ar to some degree (a lot at higher levels).

It's possible that Progesterone production crashing over time on TRT leads to higher DHT levels as 5-ar conversion isn't blocked at all anymore.

Again, this is complete speculation and I wouldn't put much stock into it.

As far as what causes/aggravates hairloss, I'm not sure we have enough data to know with any degree of confidence. I will say though that I did notice significant acceleration of hairloss on the cream when my DHT jumped to 8x the top of the range, even with AUC Free T comparable to Test C injections.

 

[Seagal]

It would vary with the tissue. No doubt higher serum DHT has CNS effects that are subjectively obvious; bone is another tissue directly affected by serum DHT in an animal model: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/8756328296001354

The prostate is your prototypical androgen-sensitive tissue that is completely impervious to serum DHT with 100% local control of DHT production. Other tissues may fall into one of these categories, or land somewhere in between with influences of both serum and locally produced DHT.

I think to remember that if men were given DHT that it yielded reduced T levels. The question is what happens if that natural feedback loop is not working because of exogenous T.

 

[Seagal]

Just speculating here, but Progesterone is known to go down significantly for some (many?) men on TRT, and Progesterone blocks 5-ar to some degree (a lot at higher levels).

It's possible that Progesterone production crashing over time on TRT leads to higher DHT levels as 5-ar conversion isn't blocked at all anymore.

Again, this is complete speculation and I wouldn't put much stock into it.

As far as what causes/aggravates hairloss, I'm not sure we have enough data to know with any degree of confidence. I will say though that I did notice significant acceleration of hairloss on the cream when my DHT jumped to 8x the top of the range, even with AUC Free T comparable to Test C injections.

Was thinking the same regarding progesterone: what is the proper level along with TRT.
There is a correlation with age (up) and DHT (up) and progesterone & T (down).
And I believe that serum DHT can reduce estrogenic activity, which is also relevant for skin hair follicles.

 

[Seagal]

It would vary with the tissue. No doubt higher serum DHT has CNS effects that are subjectively obvious; bone is another tissue directly affected by serum DHT in an animal model: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/8756328296001354

The prostate is your prototypical androgen-sensitive tissue that is completely impervious to serum DHT with 100% local control of DHT production. Other tissues may fall into one of these categories, or land somewhere in between with influences of both serum and locally produced DHT.

I think truly impervious to serum DHT is muscle tissue. Not so for DHT derivates.

 

[Gman86]

Just speculating here, but Progesterone is known to go down significantly for some (many?) men on TRT, and Progesterone blocks 5-ar to some degree (a lot at higher levels).

It's possible that Progesterone production crashing over time on TRT leads to higher DHT levels as 5-ar conversion isn't blocked at all anymore.

Again, this is complete speculation and I wouldn't put much stock into it.

As far as what causes/aggravates hairloss, I'm not sure we have enough data to know with any degree of confidence. I will say though that I did notice significant acceleration of hairloss on the cream when my DHT jumped to 8x the top of the range, even with AUC Free T comparable to Test C injections.

Great critical thinking skills with the prog/ 5 ar enzyme/ dht link. It’s definitely theoretically possible that what u were saying could happen in some guys

As far as hair loss goes, there’s no question that DHT plays a role. That’s just a fact.

One of the main causes, other than genetically being prone to MPB, is lack of blood flow to the scalp. So anything that keeps ur cardiovascular system healthy would help with hair loss, I would imagine. It’s also why scalp massaging can help with hair loss. Promotes blood flow to the area

Another hormone that affects hair loss negatively, at least in males, that doesn’t get talked about much, is prolactin. High prolactin, just to clarify

 

[Seagal]

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[FunkOdyssey]

I will say though that I did notice significant acceleration of hairloss on the cream when my DHT jumped to 8x the top of the range, even with AUC Free T comparable to Test C injections.

I had more hair loss on higher dose test prop (25-30 mg daily), than on 20 mg prop with pure DHT added in top via gel which raised my DHT over 300 ng/dL.

The pure DHT is a great way to experiment with this in a more controlled fashion.

 

[SS1LE]

Just speculating here, but Progesterone is known to go down significantly for some (many?) men on TRT, and Progesterone blocks 5-ar to some degree (a lot at higher levels).

It's possible that Progesterone production crashing over time on TRT leads to higher DHT levels as 5-ar conversion isn't blocked at all anymore.

Again, this is complete speculation and I wouldn't put much stock into it.

As far as what causes/aggravates hairloss, I'm not sure we have enough data to know with any degree of confidence. I will say though that I did notice significant acceleration of hairloss on the cream when my DHT jumped to 8x the top of the range, even with AUC Free T comparable to Test C injections.

Here is my progesterone from 3/19 should it be higher?

 

[SS1LE]

I had more hair loss on higher dose test prop (25-30 mg daily), than on 20 mg prop with pure DHT added in top via gel which raised my DHT over 300 ng/dL.

The pure DHT is a great way to experiment with this in a more controlled fashion.

How did you feel with DHT that high and I guess also how long did you stay there? Im starting really to believe my TRT issues as of late are high DHT