subcutaneous injection into stomach

[Devcon]

Subq doesn’t work. It’s a piss poor delivery method for injecting an oil based testosterone.

View attachment 25385


Might want to rephrase that one!

Wrong forum to be spewing that bullS**T!

Your first post within minutes of joining the forum.

Not looking too good.

What was your protocol (dose T/injection frequency)?

TE/TC/TP (compounded/UGL/Big Pharma)?

Post screenshots of all your blood work (lab/assays used).



Some of my replies from previous threads regarding subcutaneous T injections:


Regarding the absorption/effectiveness of T should be no difference between sub-q vs IM mind you there are some men who do not feel well-injecting sub-q let alone claim they hit much lower numbers but I would be suspect in most cases unless they are :

*following the same protocol (dose T/injection frequency)

*staying consistent and waiting the full 4-6 weeks for blood levels to stabilize

*getting blood work done at 6 weeks

*using the same lab, same assays (most accurate), and testing at the true trough.

Only when the above steps have been followed and labs from the sub-q and IM protocol can be fairly compared then one can truly state such!




This is far from common and even then unless those same individuals have kept everything consistent such as protocol (dose T/injection frequency), same ester, waiting the full 4-6 weeks for levels to stabilize, testing at the true trough, using the same lab, same assay (most accurate) when comparing lab results for TT/FT between sub-q vs IM than I would have my doubts.

Trust me when I tell you that some of these same individuals making such claims as poor absorption/lower T levels have slipped up on one of the points stated above.

For the majority, there should be no difference in the absorption let alone the effectiveness when injecting exogenous esterified testosterone subcutaneously.

Poor injection technique/procedure causing leakage.....doubtful unless it was happening frequently.

Would be rare that one would have excess leakage at the injection site frequently and in most cases anytime one experiences any leakage it is minimal.

If you are concerned that injecting sub-q may be causing absorption issues then switch to IM.




Again for a majority of men, there should be no difference in the absorption/effectiveness of T when injecting strictly sub-q.

Sure some may not do well but it is far from common.....bro-science spewed on the forums.

Top it all off that men lurking on forums represent a small slice of men on trt!

If anything the main drawback for some would-be lumps at the injection site/pain/swelling.

Are there outliers who achieve poor T levels on such.....sure but again it is far from common!


If you have kept everything consistent such as protocol (dose T/injection frequency), same ester, proper injection technique, waiting the full 4-6 weeks for levels to stabilize, testing at the true trough, using the same lab, same assay (most accurate) when comparing lab results for TT/FT between sub-q vs IM and you were not experiencing any lumps/pain/swelling when injecting strictly sub-q and you are still not achieving high enough T levels than stick with IM.




Look over all the threads posted below.

SubQ experience?

Hi. There is people would like to share their experience with subq ?

www.excelmale.com

Sub Q injections quit working

Hi I have been on trt for several years and injecting Sub Q for 2 years and kept my test between 700-800. It all of a sudden quit working. I have continued sub Q and nothing has changed. I have tried 2 different fresh vials from Walgreens and different locations with no results. Has anybody...

www.excelmale.com

Thinking about starting trt

Hey guys. I want to get your opinion on weather it would be appropriate to start trt. I'm a 35 year old male with a total T level of 419 and a free T level of 280. My GP says that I'm normal and that he will not prescribe any testosterone. However I have been researching trt clinics near me and...

www.excelmale.com

Daily Intramuscular injections.

Hey guys I'm currently on m-w-f injections. Ive actually started to feel way better on shot days on Im vs sub q. However through years of testing my t levels drop off quite a bit 24 hrs post injection. I respond very well to lower doses. 90mg a week has my ft slightly over range. And TT around...

www.excelmale.com

35% Drop in serum Total T in 6 months with no protocol change. Why???

Hi everyone, During the past 6 months I've experienced a 35% drop in Total Testosterone levels, while keeping the same protocol. Has anyone experienced anything similar? What could be the cause for this decline? My Protocol: 60mg Testosterone Enanthate SubQ E3.5D 700IU HcG SubQ E3.5D 0.25mg...

www.excelmale.com

SubQ vs IM (E2)

Anyone get higher e2 from subQ injections? Is it because of estrogen in fat?

www.excelmale.com

Fundamental understanding of drug absorption from a parenteral oil depot

Abstract Oil depots are parenteral drug formulations meant for sustained release of lipophilic compounds. Until now, a comprehensive understanding of the mechanism of drug absorption from oil depots is lacking. The aim of this paper was to fill this gap. A clinical study with healthy...

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Spatial distribution of oil depots monitored in human muscle using MRI

Abstract Oil depots are parenteral drug formulations meant for the sustained release of lipophilic compounds. According to mass transport models, the drug-release rate from these injections is determined by the surface area of the oil depot. Until now, the size of the surface area of injected...

www.excelmale.com

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/thr...f-an-oil-depot-to-drug-absorption.23820/[/URL

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[Devcon]

I was injecting 30 mgs eod shallow IM ventro glute, quads and shoulders. Had been on this regimen for around 4 years. My total t was always around 750. I decided to try subq in the abdominal fat. Same dose and frequency. After 5 weeks my total t dropped to 350. I just tried it again every 3 1/2 days. Monday morning and Thursday evening. I was good for about 2 weeks then energy, mood and libido took a dive. I didn’t get blood work, because there’s no need to. I’ve been on trt for about 15 years so I know how I’m supposed to feel. It may work for some, but for the majority it doesn’t. And in most cases for those it does work for they have to take a higher dose to achieve the same levels as they would get with IM injections. So why bother. I know what some people are going to say “you didn’t give it enough time.” That may be true for someone that hasn’t been on trt. My body was well saturated with the drug already.

And yes I used the same lab. Quest.

 

[Devcon]

I was injecting 30 mgs eod shallow IM ventro glute, quads and shoulders. Had been on this regimen for around 4 years. My total t was always around 750. I decided to try subq in the abdominal fat. Same dose and frequency. After 5 weeks my total t dropped to 350. I just tried it again every 3 1/2 days. Monday morning and Thursday evening. I was good for about 2 weeks then energy, mood and libido took a dive. I didn’t get blood work, because there’s no need to. I’ve been on trt for about 15 years so I know how I’m supposed to feel. It may work for some, but for the majority it doesn’t. And in most cases for those it does work for they have to take a higher dose to achieve the same levels as they would get with IM injections. So why bother. I know what some people are going to say “you didn’t give it enough time.” That may be true for someone that hasn’t been on trt. My body was well saturated with the drug already.And I use pharma grade test from cvs.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

I was injecting 30 mgs eod shallow IM ventro glute, quads and shoulders. Had been on this regimen for around 4 years. My total t was always around 750. I decided to try subq in the abdominal fat. Same dose and frequency. After 5 weeks my total t dropped to 350. I just tried it again every 3 1/2 days. Monday morning and Thursday evening. I was good for about 2 weeks then energy, mood and libido took a dive. I didn’t get blood work, because there’s no need to. I’ve been on trt for about 15 years so I know how I’m supposed to feel. It may work for some, but for the majority it doesn’t. And in most cases for those it does work for they have to take a higher dose to achieve the same levels as they would get with IM injections. So why bother. I know what some people are going to say “you didn’t give it enough time.” That may be true for someone that hasn’t been on trt. My body was well saturated with the drug already.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I was wondering from your first post if you were just a troll. This is a much better approach to communicating about the SubQ vs IM issue than your original post.

Your experience is valid. It is also N=1, but you probably will be happy to know that there are others who also do not do well with SubQ. This topic has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum.

So, your experience is is valid for you and some others, but quite contrary to mine, and many others and research statistics. You are not the only one who seemingly doesn't do well with SubQ. It is demonstrative of the heterogeneous nature of TRT between different individuals. Glad you have found what does and does not work FOR YOU. Sorry that it caused you such frustration. Please accept that this is your problem but is not for many of us.

The solution is simple, stick with IM.

I really have no idea, but I'll offer up one rhetorical theory. I am very lean, and I do not inject into my larger fat pads, but really my depots end up subQ not intrafat. I do not know into what tissue those who are unsuccessful with SubQ are injecting. In my mind it is possible that injecting into larger fat masses could end up in the T being stored in the fat rather than metabolized.

 

[Devcon]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I was wondering from your first post if you were just a troll. This is a much better approach to communicating about the SubQ vs IM issue than your original post.

Your experience is valid. It is also N=1, but you probably will be happy to know that there are others who also do not do well with SubQ. This topic has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum.

So, your experience is is valid for you and some others, but quite contrary to mine, and many others and research statistics. You are not the only one who seemingly doesn't do well with SubQ. It is demonstrative of the heterogeneous nature of TRT between different individuals. Glad you have found what does and does not work FOR YOU. Sorry that it caused you such frustration. Please accept that this is your problem but is not for many of us.

The solution is simple, stick with IM.

I really have no idea, but I'll offer up one rhetorical theory. I am very lean, and I do not inject into my larger fat pads, but really my depots end up subQ not intrafat. I do not know into what tissue those who are unsuccessful with SubQ are injecting. In my mind it is possible that injecting into larger fat masses could end up in the T being stored in the fat rather than metabolized.

Yeah, I came off a little harsh and I do apologize for that. Trust me I wish it did work for me. I tried the stomach fat the first time around and the most recent I tried the fat pad on my glutes where I used to do my deep IM shots. Years of poking holes in my muscles even if it is a 1/2 inch 27 or 28 gauge needle gets old.

 

[Cataceous]

... It may work for some, but for the majority it doesn’t. And in most cases for those it does work for they have to take a higher dose to achieve the same levels as they would get with IM injections. ...

This is demonstrably false. We have the clinical trials involving Xyosted, with total N probably getting into the hundreds now. It would be readily apparent if more than a few percent had the kind of problem you are reporting. In fact the total absorption as measured via AUC was found to be comparable to IM injections. You should expect skepticism, as there's not a known mechanism by which a significant fraction of testosterone can just disappear, assuming it was properly injected. Did you meticulously inspect for injection site leakage? This may be more common with SC delivery. Although less likely, a significant drop in SHBG would manifest in lower total testosterone, without a change in free testosterone. Another scenario with lower probability is that your rate of absorption with SC runs counter to what's typical, and is faster than with IM. However, it would need to be particularly out of the ordinary to produce such results with EOD injections.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I'm noticing that with my daily injections, particularly into delts, I have horrible sleep that night and just don't feel well the next day. The few days I finally was doing subq around hip and glute I did not have this issue. It's not the first time I suspected something different with my delt injections. Since I can't tell at all where I've injected in that area, and I'm only using roughly 5mg daily, would there be a problem hitting the same area subq every other day? Obviously I wouldn't try to, but simply can't tell where exactly I've previously hit.

 

[Willyt]

@readalot has made some excellent comments on the different elimination half-life for IM versus subq.

For those who are struggling on TRT

I've been thinking about this thread lately. Any theories on why you seem to respond better on 1x week versus daily? I've read a number of accounts from med-high SHBG guys like you who do better on less frequent injections. I think it’s just the simple mechanism of the medication itself and...

www.excelmale.com

This difference may explain why some feel better on one versus the other. I definitely prefer the convenience of subq for daily injections, but after hundreds of dailies, there is no doubt that I subjectively feel better on shallow IM in delts. However, I don't consider IM a realistic option for daily injections for the next 20 years of my life.

 

[GreenMachineX]

@readalot has made some excellent comments on the different elimination half-life for IM versus subq.

For those who are struggling on TRT

I've been thinking about this thread lately. Any theories on why you seem to respond better on 1x week versus daily? I've read a number of accounts from med-high SHBG guys like you who do better on less frequent injections. I think it’s just the simple mechanism of the medication itself and...

www.excelmale.com

This difference may explain why some feel better on one versus the other. I definitely prefer the convenience of subq for daily injections, but after hundreds of dailies, there is no doubt that I subjectively feel better on shallow IM in delts. However, I don't consider IM a realistic option for daily injections for the next 20 years of my life.

How close do you pay attention to not hit the same exact subq spot?

 

[Willyt]

How close do you pay attention to not hit the same exact subq spot?

Not at all. 31 gauge 5/16 needle is tiny. I just rotate in love handles area as well as stomach avoiding the usual 2" radius around belly button.

Now shallow IM in delt with 1/2" needle - that is different story. About 1 out of 4 injections I hit something in the muscle and get a zinger

 

[andrewBwinter]

After speaking with the clinician at my "specialist's" office, we have decided to run an experiment on sub-Q vs. IM for the next 4 weeks.
Simple effects to be monitored (they don't monitor FT or SHBG):
TT
HCT
HGB
E2

Yesterday's baseline on 120mg/wk Test-E e3.5d, trough 72 hours after injection:
TT - 29.7 nmol/L (855 ng/dL)
HCT - 50.7
HGB - 180
E2 - 151 pmol/L (not sensitive)

It can't be a true test because my CPAP is ready and there will be an effect from better oxygenation, but that most likely won't change TT and E2. SCIENCE!

 

[andrewBwinter]

Whoa! The completely unscientific results look like this for 30 days sub-Q (vs. IM above) at 120/wk T-E e3.5d, 72 hours trough after morning injection this past Saturday:

TT - 26.8 nmol/L (773 ng/dL) -82 ng/dL
HCT - 51.7 +1.0 (easily manipulated with water and hydration)
HGB - 177 -3 (I've started CPAP)
E2 - 140 pmol/L -11 pmol/L

So the question remains, is the lower (unsensitive) E2 and the potentially lower TT, worth doing sub-Q vs. IM? I can't say because to be honest, I don't feel any different. The only numbers I chase are at the gym for 1RM (still lifting like a meathead).

Tonight is my next injection and for consistency on the week, I will remain sub-Q. However on Saturday, I will return to IM pending any thoughts from the group.

I always welcome input and ideas, otherwise I'll stagnate and end up in an echo chamber.

 

[Willyt]

For E3.5d, I would go with whichever one makes you feel better subjectively. But if you decide to start injecting more frequently (e.g., daily), this is where subq shines. Quick morning jab in love handle with 31 gauge 5/16 needle easy as pie.

 

[andrewBwinter]

For E3.5d, I would go with whichever one makes you feel better subjectively. But if you decide to start injecting more frequently (e.g., daily), this is where subq shines. Quick morning jab in love handle with 31 gauge 5/16 needle easy as pie.

I have been considering every other day sub-Q for my 120 mg per week (200 mg / ml). Something like .18 ml every other day would roughly be the equivalent of 120 / week. Lots of trial and error. It'll be one year on the 14th so I'm still finding the best solution.

@Willyt thanks for the feedback