Microdosing Enanthate

[TDM812]

Good evening.

I have been on TRT off and on for a few years. My last try resulted in my giving up due to inability to control E2 sides. I with the guidance of Defy I performed a restart using Clomid and HCG about 1ish years ago. This initially brought my levels to the 500 range. We decided to drop the Clomd, and give stand-alone HCG a try. This worked temporarily, but I seemed to have developed a tolerance.

I had blood draws about 4 weeks ago. The results came back around 250. I understand total doesn’t really tell the story, but I don’t have comprehensive results at my fingertips right now.

I scheduled an appt with Defy to give it another shot. They prescribed me 20mg Enanthate pinned daily. Previously I had absorption issues with the subcutaneous regiment, so Ive been going IM.

I started this 15 days ago today. How long will it take before I feel a difference? I assume there will be a different reaction time given it’s a daily injection,but not sure. By pinning daily how much of a difference could I reasonably expect to see in my E2 levels?

Thanks to all in advance for sharing your knowledge m.

 

[madman]

Good evening.

I have been on TRT off and on for a few years. My last try resulted in my giving up due to inability to control E2 sides. I with the guidance of Defy I performed a restart using Clomid and HCG about 1ish years ago. This initially brought my levels to the 500 range. We decided to drop the Clomd, and give stand-alone HCG a try. This worked temporarily, but I seemed to have developed a tolerance.

I had blood draws about 4 weeks ago. The results came back around 250. I understand total doesn’t really tell the story, but I don’t have comprehensive results at my fingertips right now.

I scheduled an appt with Defy to give it another shot. They prescribed me 20mg Enanthate pinned daily. Previously I had absorption issues with the subcutaneous regiment, so Ive been going IM.

I started this 15 days ago today. How long will it take before I feel a difference? I assume there will be a different reaction time given it’s a daily injection,but not sure. By pinning daily how much of a difference could I reasonably expect to see in my E2 levels?

Thanks to all in advance for sharing your knowledge m.

Would not even consider 20 mg T daily as a micro-dose.

140 mg T/week split into 20 mg daily can easily have one FT level through the roof.

Your SHBG will have a significant impact on FT.

Need to give it some time as hormones are in FLUX and T levels are rising during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks TC/TE).

Even then once blood levels have stabilized it will take time for the body to adapt.

No one can say where your estradiol level will end up let alone keep in mind that it is not a given that daily injections will result in lower e2.

When it comes to jumping on a daily injection protocol in hopes of achieving lowering e2/hematocrit many make the mistake of running too high an FT level which will have a significant impact on driving up your estradiol/hematocrit.

I would be more concerned with where your FT ends up on such a protocol 140mg T/week split (20 mg daily).

 

[tareload]

Would not even consider 20 mg T daily as a micro-dose.

Amen!

Your SHBG will have a significant impact on FT.

You mean his SHBG will have a significant impact on his TT (not fT)?

I know we go back and forth trying to explain this to guys but might as well try to make sure folks don't keep repeating the same flawed arguments.

800mg Test Cyp a Week, Total Test Is Only 1406!

TLDR: doesn’t matter. More details that are of probably little help but may interest some. Thought about your question which was reason for delay in responding and trying to answer as succinctly as possible based on the constructive feedback I’ve received recently. I FAILED! If your goal...

forums.t-nation.com

Pasted from above link:

SHBG is related (correlated) to but doesn’t appear to drive (causation) clearance rate. There’s a whole bunch of stuff that determines how your body clears fT, SHBG is not one of them. Your body eliminates based on free T not Total T. TT is set by your SHBG and free T via dynamic equilibrium (chemical kinetics). Guys typically look at their TT and get confused as hell when trying to understand clearance rate. This is where this idea that guys who have lower SHBG need to inject more frequently came from. For the same fT a low SHBG guy will read a lower TT so he thinks he isn’t getting the same bang for his buck even though his fT is the same as the higher SHBG guy. In addition, I’ll argue that WE don’t understand the value of keeping supra T (TT and fT) levels constant with respect to positive vs negative side effects.

Hence, for 250 mg/week of TC (mild cycle for many based on their metabolic clearance rate of free T), do we need to inject ED or once weekly if our SHBG is 10?

Remember, elimination is driven by free T not Total T. If you really want to know your elimination kinetics it will take some work as I’ve discussed a few times how you can measure AUC and determine how your body processes T. Still seems trial and error to me and related to age, liver activity, lymphatic activity, where you inject, blah blah.

Example:
So what’s the goal? Gainz or something else?
Given SHBG of 10.
Given 250 mg/week of TC.

Better to inject every day and keep constant TT (constant free T) at say 1500 ng/dL (55 ng/dL) or inject once weekly and have peak TT (fT) at 2000 ng/dL (77 ng/dL) and trough TT (fT) at 1000 ng/dL (36 nd/dL)?

Good question that I can’t answer for an individual. Running your body at constant and HIGH TT(fT) levels continuously seems like a bad idea from health perspective. From GAINZ perspective, I have no clue. What drives GAINZ, fT or TT and what’s their individual contributions? No one knows as far as I can tell. Others thoughts or feedback?

Homework: do this same example for a guy with an SHBG of 30 nmol/L and compute the TT / fT levels for ED vs weekly injections? What does this tell you?

And of course the obligatory credit where credit is due:

800mg Test Cyp a Week, Total Test Is Only 1406!

Adding this (I’ve put on here in a few places) here as this is the most succint description of the confounding of SHBG vs injection frequency requirement I’ve found (attribution to cataceous on ExcelMale): The issue with this study is that they are basing MCR on total T rather than free T...

forums.t-nation.com

 

[Willyt]

Defy always starts high out of the gate. You may want to try a popular low daily dose for enanthate which is 10mg per day. That seems to put most guys at mid to high range. It’s amazing how little exogenous T it takes.

 

[madman]

Amen!



You mean his SHBG will have a significant impact on his TT (not fT)?

I know we go back and forth trying to explain this to guys but might as well try to make sure folks don't keep repeating the same flawed arguments.

800mg Test Cyp a Week, Total Test Is Only 1406!

TLDR: doesn’t matter. More details that are of probably little help but may interest some. Thought about your question which was reason for delay in responding and trying to answer as succinctly as possible based on the constructive feedback I’ve received recently. I FAILED! If your goal...

forums.t-nation.com

Pasted from above link:

SHBG is related (correlated) to but doesn’t appear to drive (causation) clearance rate. There’s a whole bunch of stuff that determines how your body clears fT, SHBG is not one of them. Your body eliminates based on free T not Total T. TT is set by your SHBG and free T via dynamic equilibrium (chemical kinetics). Guys typically look at their TT and get confused as hell when trying to understand clearance rate. This is where this idea that guys who have lower SHBG need to inject more frequently came from. For the same fT a low SHBG guy will read a lower TT so he thinks he isn’t getting the same bang for his buck even though his fT is the same as the higher SHBG guy. In addition, I’ll argue that WE don’t understand the value of keeping supra T (TT and fT) levels constant with respect to positive vs negative side effects.

Hence, for 250 mg/week of TC (mild cycle for many based on their metabolic clearance rate of free T), do we need to inject ED or once weekly if our SHBG is 10?

Remember, elimination is driven by free T not Total T. If you really want to know your elimination kinetics it will take some work as I’ve discussed a few times how you can measure AUC and determine how your body processes T. Still seems trial and error to me and related to age, liver activity, lymphatic activity, where you inject, blah blah.

Example:
So what’s the goal? Gainz or something else?
Given SHBG of 10.
Given 250 mg/week of TC.

Better to inject every day and keep constant TT (constant free T) at say 1500 ng/dL (55 ng/dL) or inject once weekly and have peak TT (fT) at 2000 ng/dL (77 ng/dL) and trough TT (fT) at 1000 ng/dL (36 nd/dL)?

Good question that I can’t answer for an individual. Running your body at constant and HIGH TT(fT) levels continuously seems like a bad idea from health perspective. From GAINZ perspective, I have no clue. What drives GAINZ, fT or TT and what’s their individual contributions? No one knows as far as I can tell. Others thoughts or feedback?

Homework: do this same example for a guy with an SHBG of 30 nmol/L and compute the TT / fT levels for ED vs weekly injections? What does this tell you?

And of course the obligatory credit where credit is due:

800mg Test Cyp a Week, Total Test Is Only 1406!

Adding this (I’ve put on here in a few places) here as this is the most succint description of the confounding of SHBG vs injection frequency requirement I’ve found (attribution to cataceous on ExcelMale): The issue with this study is that they are basing MCR on total T rather than free T...

forums.t-nation.com

I should have been more clear and stated SHBG/TT keeping in mind that one with low/lowish SHBG can still achieve a healthy/high FT running a lower TT.

Even then too many get caught up in thinking that if one has highish/high SHBG they need to be running an absurdly high TT in order to achieve a healthy let alone high FT which is not the case.

Bruhwashed with that we need our trough TT >1000 ng/dL to achieve a high enough FT bulls**t!

 

[Anonymon]

Good evening.

I have been on TRT off and on for a few years. My last try resulted in my giving up due to inability to control E2 sides. I with the guidance of Defy I performed a restart using Clomid and HCG about 1ish years ago. This initially brought my levels to the 500 range. We decided to drop the Clomd, and give stand-alone HCG a try. This worked temporarily, but I seemed to have developed a tolerance.

I had blood draws about 4 weeks ago. The results came back around 250. I understand total doesn’t really tell the story, but I don’t have comprehensive results at my fingertips right now.

I scheduled an appt with Defy to give it another shot. They prescribed me 20mg Enanthate pinned daily. Previously I had absorption issues with the subcutaneous regiment, so Ive been going IM.

I started this 15 days ago today. How long will it take before I feel a difference? I assume there will be a different reaction time given it’s a daily injection,but not sure. By pinning daily how much of a difference could I reasonably expect to see in my E2 levels?

Thanks to all in advance for sharing your knowledge m.

I’ve been on different schemes and pinned Test-E at around that amount for years. Compared to the same total Test-E amount pinned 3x a week, my E2 went down by about 5-6 points and my total t as I recall went up by about 5 points on whatever total t scale is in the smallest increments up to 25 or so for the high end of that range, mine being at like 17 I think on that scale. Water retention went down a little, and in general I felt about everything I ever felt different within the first 30 days and it was the same thereafter for a year or two. E2 was always in the 50s no matter what I did during that time. Went a little higher and lower on T and it was always 50-56ish.

Daily pinning means you’re always at a peak when testing so it can be hard to compare to testing the day after like you would on a less frequent scheme like my old 3x a week, but those were my numbers. On a different scheme now with different numbers but still pinning daily.

 

[DS3]

Amen!



You mean his SHBG will have a significant impact on his TT (not fT)?

I know we go back and forth trying to explain this to guys but might as well try to make sure folks don't keep repeating the same flawed arguments.

800mg Test Cyp a Week, Total Test Is Only 1406!

TLDR: doesn’t matter. More details that are of probably little help but may interest some. Thought about your question which was reason for delay in responding and trying to answer as succinctly as possible based on the constructive feedback I’ve received recently. I FAILED! If your goal...

forums.t-nation.com

Pasted from above link:

SHBG is related (correlated) to but doesn’t appear to drive (causation) clearance rate. There’s a whole bunch of stuff that determines how your body clears fT, SHBG is not one of them. Your body eliminates based on free T not Total T. TT is set by your SHBG and free T via dynamic equilibrium (chemical kinetics). Guys typically look at their TT and get confused as hell when trying to understand clearance rate. This is where this idea that guys who have lower SHBG need to inject more frequently came from. For the same fT a low SHBG guy will read a lower TT so he thinks he isn’t getting the same bang for his buck even though his fT is the same as the higher SHBG guy. In addition, I’ll argue that WE don’t understand the value of keeping supra T (TT and fT) levels constant with respect to positive vs negative side effects.

Hence, for 250 mg/week of TC (mild cycle for many based on their metabolic clearance rate of free T), do we need to inject ED or once weekly if our SHBG is 10?

Remember, elimination is driven by free T not Total T. If you really want to know your elimination kinetics it will take some work as I’ve discussed a few times how you can measure AUC and determine how your body processes T. Still seems trial and error to me and related to age, liver activity, lymphatic activity, where you inject, blah blah.

Example:
So what’s the goal? Gainz or something else?
Given SHBG of 10.
Given 250 mg/week of TC.

Better to inject every day and keep constant TT (constant free T) at say 1500 ng/dL (55 ng/dL) or inject once weekly and have peak TT (fT) at 2000 ng/dL (77 ng/dL) and trough TT (fT) at 1000 ng/dL (36 nd/dL)?

Good question that I can’t answer for an individual. Running your body at constant and HIGH TT(fT) levels continuously seems like a bad idea from health perspective. From GAINZ perspective, I have no clue. What drives GAINZ, fT or TT and what’s their individual contributions? No one knows as far as I can tell. Others thoughts or feedback?

Homework: do this same example for a guy with an SHBG of 30 nmol/L and compute the TT / fT levels for ED vs weekly injections? What does this tell you?

And of course the obligatory credit where credit is due:

800mg Test Cyp a Week, Total Test Is Only 1406!

Adding this (I’ve put on here in a few places) here as this is the most succint description of the confounding of SHBG vs injection frequency requirement I’ve found (attribution to cataceous on ExcelMale): The issue with this study is that they are basing MCR on total T rather than free T...

forums.t-nation.com

Wtf does this response have to do with the original post?

 

[Strengthandlibido]

Defy always starts high out of the gate. You may want to try a popular low daily dose for enanthate which is 10mg per day. That seems to put most guys at mid to high range. It’s amazing how little exogenous T it takes.

Defy wanted me to start at 100 mg test cypionate weekly MWF, but I put myself on 10 mg daily. I have labs from my UGL TRT days that show I get to 770 ng/dL TT on 25 mg EOD with FT well over range.. So the 20 mg/day as a "micro" dose really jumped out at me.

 

[Fortunate]

Question for the floor (don't mean to hijack the thread): In my experience, drawing up 10-20mg is very doable, but a PITA, especially with small insulin syringes. Mind sharing your favored technique to get the precise amount (syringe size, needle size, etc.)?

I am a long time Natesto user, but occasionally do injection trials in an attempt to find a more convenient protocol that provides sufficient efficacy without unwanted side effects (like every other guy on this forum!).

 

[Cataceous]

Question for the floor (don't mean to hijack the thread): In my experience, drawing up 10-20mg is very doable, but a PITA, especially with small insulin syringes. Mind sharing your favored technique to get the precise amount (syringe size, needle size, etc.)?
...

Quick-and-dirty auto-loader. Do something else while it loads. I use 0.3 cc syringes with 31 gauge, 5/16" needles. I'm usually injecting less than 0.1 mL of oil-based medicines.

 

[Fortunate]

Quick-and-dirty auto-loader. Do something else while it loads. I use 0.3 cc syringes with 31 gauge, 5/16" needles. I'm usually injecting less than 0.1 mL of oil-based medicines.

Interesting. I think I smell a patent....

 

[Cataceous]

... So the 20 mg/day as a "micro" dose really jumped out at me.

As @madman said, this is not a micro-dose. I would typically mention how the 14.4 mg of testosterone is more than double the average production of healthy young men. Taking it a step further, one might ask how high this is compared to the general population. Assume the normal male daily testosterone production range of 3-9 mg represents the average plus or minus two standard deviations. This puts 14.4 mg at 5.6 standard deviations above the average. Statistically speaking, fewer than one of every four million men would be expected to produce this much or more testosterone. From this it might be argued that if there actually are any men producing this much then it's due to some pathology.

 

[Willyt]

As @madman said, this is not a micro-dose. I would typically mention how the 14.4 mg of testosterone is more than double the average production of healthy young men. Taking it a step further, one might ask how high this is compared to the general population. Assume the normal male daily testosterone production range of 3-9 mg represents the average plus or minus two standard deviations. This puts 14.4 mg at 5.6 standard deviations above the average. Statistically speaking, fewer than one of every four million men would be expected to produce this much or more testosterone. From this it might be argued that if there actually are any men producing this much then it's due to some pathology.

Cat have you seen study about older men producing 5mg on average per day? I read it somewhere but can’t find it now.

If true, it makes me wonder whether us over 50 guys should be targeting our age group norm or that of a younger guy? Let’s be honest here - turning back the clock is what many hope to achieve on TRT.

 

[DS3]

As @madman said, this is not a micro-dose. I would typically mention how the 14.4 mg of testosterone is more than double the average production of healthy young men. Taking it a step further, one might ask how high this is compared to the general population. Assume the normal male daily testosterone production range of 3-9 mg represents the average plus or minus two standard deviations. This puts 14.4 mg at 5.6 standard deviations above the average. Statistically speaking, fewer than one of every four million men would be expected to produce this much or more testosterone. From this it might be argued that if there actually are any men producing this much then it's due to some pathology.

…and yet we are still left with the question, do men on TRT who are targeting this 5-9 mg of testosterone per day actually feel good compared to slightly higher dosing? There are so few people on TRT who microdose at the level of neuroticism that most of us do. Are we actually doing better than our slightly supraphyiological counterparts?

 

[Cataceous]

Cat have you seen study about older men producing 5mg on average per day? I read it somewhere but can’t find it now.

If true, it makes me wonder whether us over 50 guys should be targeting our age group norm or that of a younger guy? Let’s be honest here - turning back the clock is what many hope to achieve on TRT.

It's a good question, and one that @Strengthandlibido has also brought up. It's certainly plausible that average youthful testosterone levels might create imbalances in older guys whose other parameters no longer reflect youthful physiology. Eventually we may know more, but for now it's hard enough just to propagate information about what physiological dosing is, as evidenced by the OP's perception of micro-dosing.

…and yet we are still left with the question, do men on TRT who are targeting this 5-9 mg of testosterone per day actually feel good compared to slightly higher dosing? There are so few people on TRT who microdose at the level of neuroticism that most of us do. Are we actually doing better than our slightly supraphyiological counterparts?

How do you define "slightly higher dosing" and "slightly supraphysiological"? I say that double that of normal physiology doesn't qualify. We are not micro-dosing. We are dosing in line with normal physiology. The excessive dosing mistakenly perceived as normal stems from the more-is-better attitude along with the use of infrequent injections of longer testosterone esters.

​

Dr Shippen made some relevant remarks, saying:

​

I don't know of any hormone that's healthier when it's above the normal range.​

The normal range is not a normative range for everyone. The normal range has to be individualized. ... Some guys are going to be normal at 450 and abnormally high at 800.​

 

[Strengthandlibido]

Question for the floor (don't mean to hijack the thread): In my experience, drawing up 10-20mg is very doable, but a PITA, especially with small insulin syringes. Mind sharing your favored technique to get the precise amount (syringe size, needle size, etc.)?

I am a long time Natesto user, but occasionally do injection trials in an attempt to find a more convenient protocol that provides sufficient efficacy without unwanted side effects (like every other guy on this forum!).

I downloaded a magnifying glass app that also has a lamp function. I view the syringe through that on my smartphone, and it allows me to be very precise with plunger position on or between the I.U. lines. I've attached some pics to show how clearly this allows me to see what I'm doing.

I use 0.3cc syringes, 29 to 31-gauge, 1/2" needle. I wish they made them in 0.1cc for my daily "micro" dosing.

 

[Willyt]

I downloaded a magnifying glass app that also has a lamp function. I view the syringe through that on my smartphone, and it allows me to be very precise with plunger position on or between the I.U. lines. I've attached some pics to show how clearly this allows me to see what I'm doing.

I use 0.3cc syringes, 29 to 31-gauge, 1/2" needle. I wish they made them in 0.1cc for my daily "micro" dosing.

What’s the app called?

 

[Strengthandlibido]

What’s the app called?

Magnifying Glass + Flashlight by RV AppStudios, but there are others that may be better. The Magnifier + Flashlight by App2U is pretty good too.

 

[DS3]

It's a good question, and one that @Strengthandlibido has also brought up. It's certainly plausible that average youthful testosterone levels might create imbalances in older guys whose other parameters no longer reflect youthful physiology. Eventually we may know more, but for now it's hard enough just to propagate information about what physiological dosing is, as evidenced by the OP's perception of micro-dosing.


How do you define "slightly higher dosing" and "slightly supraphysiological"? I say that double that of normal physiology doesn't qualify. We are not micro-dosing. We are dosing in line with normal physiology. The excessive dosing mistakenly perceived as normal stems from the more-is-better attitude along with the use of infrequent injections of longer testosterone esters.

​

Dr Shippen made some relevant remarks, saying:

​

I don't know of any hormone that's healthier when it's above the normal range.​

The normal range is not a normative range for everyone. The normal range has to be individualized. ... Some guys are going to be normal at 450 and abnormally high at 800.​

It's a good question, and one that @Strengthandlibido has also brought up. It's certainly plausible that average youthful testosterone levels might create imbalances in older guys whose other parameters no longer reflect youthful physiology. Eventually we may know more, but for now it's hard enough just to propagate information about what physiological dosing is, as evidenced by the OP's perception of micro-dosing.


How do you define "slightly higher dosing" and "slightly supraphysiological"? I say that double that of normal physiology doesn't qualify. We are not micro-dosing. We are dosing in line with normal physiology. The excessive dosing mistakenly perceived as normal stems from the more-is-better attitude along with the use of infrequent injections of longer testosterone esters.

​

Dr Shippen made

It's a good question, and one that @Strengthandlibido has also brought up. It's certainly plausible that average youthful testosterone levels might create imbalances in older guys whose other parameters no longer reflect youthful physiology. Eventually we may know more, but for now it's hard enough just to propagate information about what physiological dosing is, as evidenced by the OP's perception of micro-dosing.


How do you define "slightly higher dosing" and "slightly supraphysiological"? I say that double that of normal physiology doesn't qualify. We are not micro-dosing. We are dosing in line with normal physiology. The excessive dosing mistakenly perceived as normal stems from the more-is-better attitude along with the use of infrequent injections of longer testosterone esters.

​

Dr Shippen made some relevant remarks, saying:

​

I don't know of any hormone that's healthier when it's above the normal range.​

The normal range is not a normative range for everyone. The normal range has to be individualized. ... Some guys are going to be normal at 450 and abnormally high at 800.​

some relevant remarks, saying:

​

I don't know of any hormone that's healthier when it's above the normal range.​

The normal range is not a normative range for everyone. The normal range has to be individualized. ... Some guys are going to be normal at 450 and abnormally high at 800.​

Slightly being defined as past the upper quartile but not double the norm. A TT of 1,200 ng/dL would be considered to be slightly supraphyiological.

I will take myself as an example of why treating how a patient feels is as important if not more than maintaining physiological testosterone levels. At 15 mg ED or 30 EOD of Enanthate, my TT is ~1200 ng/dL. In comparison to this dose, at 10 mg ED I experience significantly higher social anxiety, coupled with body aches- both are attenuated at the higher dose. Is it more important that my FT and TT remain within physiological parameters, or that these other symptoms are alleviated? As long as health markers reflect cardiovascular health, I would certainly say the latter.

Most men on this forum, myself included, are here because we experience some form of side effects from TRT that we are trying to overcome. Naturally, as the idea has caught on that extreme adherence to microdosing and maintaining mid-range physiological T levels, a lot of the guys on here have joined the bandwagon. This skewed sample of men on TRT, however, does not represent the norm in dosing nor response to TRT, and I would caution using the very low dose protocol as a prescriptive measure for every single person on this forum.

Everyone who is knowledgeable on this forum will agree that keeping an eye on health parameters through regular blood testing is a critical part of testosterone replacement therapy. In that light, if a man feels good on higher dose testosterone, what are the negatives from your perspective?

 

[tareload]

Wtf does this response have to do with the original post? Was this simply a cry for attention?

The response has to do with the post I responded to which in turn has to do with injection frequency / TT / fT / SHBG interrelationships. I thought the example was pertinent but of course not exact to the original post.

Haha, your post made me do a double take as I didn't expect those words to be associated with that username. I was expecting the words to come from Vince Carter or someone other than DS3.

Thanks for allowing me reflection that a worthy goal may be for me to stay off the forums in 2022.

Have a nice 2022.