Labs from EOD Protocol

[Cataceous]

When is the follow up blood test?

I think I'm going to drop to what your using, 15mg EOD. After thinking it through, if 22mg eod took me up to 51.9 hct and 18.1 hgb after only 8 weeks, I'm sure it was going to keep climbing and I don't want to end up in a dangerous situation by the next labs. By now I'm to the point of prefer to start too low and have to come up. @Cataceous any thoughts on that? ...

I think it's reasonable. Every indication says that you will still have acceptable free testosterone at the lower dose; you should not become hypogonadal, though some symptoms are possible until you have adapted. Just try to see it through for some months, and ignore any "more is better" pressure. Keep in mind that with lowish SHBG it's expected for total testosterone to be lowish as well.

 

[gerardo]

When is the follow up blood test?

I think I'm going to drop to what your using, 15mg EOD. After thinking it through, if 22mg eod took me up to 51.9 hct and 18.1 hgb after only 8 weeks, I'm sure it was going to keep climbing and I don't want to end up in a dangerous situation by the next labs. By now I'm to the point of prefer to start too low and have to come up. @Cataceous any thoughts on that? When I went to donate a few days ago, they told me my hgb was 19.1 and was almost denied, 2 weeks after my labs were drawn. So, in 2 weeks, my hgb jumped a whole point...

I think I've also noticed that when my levels were too high, I had this strange chest sensation when I would take a deep breath and bizarre eye twitching. Since lowering my dose this past week, both are improving.

I follow up with complete blood count, iron and ferritin dosage. Starting to devar is better.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I think it's reasonable. Every indication says that you will still have acceptable free testosterone at the lower dose; you should not become hypogonadal, though some symptoms are possible until you have adapted. Just try to see it through for some months, and ignore any "more is better" pressure. Keep in mind that with lowish SHBG it's expected for total testosterone to be lowish as well.

Right on. Something interesting i think I'm noticing between sub q and shallow IM. The few weeks I've went with sub q I start having trouble sleeping again, but those 6 or so weeks I was shallow IM I slept fantastic. I also think with sub q confidence and such was way too high (borderline just a jerk at times) and not who I want to be. Granted, I didn't have the full recommended time at each level but maybe those with low shbg adapt faster to adjustments?

 

[GreenMachineX]

I think it's reasonable. Every indication says that you will still have acceptable free testosterone at the lower dose; you should not become hypogonadal, though some symptoms are possible until you have adapted. Just try to see it through for some months, and ignore any "more is better" pressure. Keep in mind that with lowish SHBG it's expected for total testosterone to be lowish as well.

I believe I've had an epiphany and have been looking at everything all wrong for years. At some point, I eventually came up with the conclusion that the testosterone was causing my sleep issues, as in too much testosterone. But I never really considered why during the first 2 years of therapy at 160mg weekly and 120mg weekly I was sleeping great. Probably because it took a couple months after the drop to 100mg for the sleep issues to arise. When I first switched to 20mg eod, then increased to 22mg eod, I slept better than I did in years. But, now that I see where my trough was on the eod protocol, versus the 100mg per week protocol, then compared to the >120mg per week protocols, I'm now convinced that my t was too low with the 100mg per week and now again since dropping to 16mg eod.

I'm getting 5 hours sleep and feeling like trash again after my workouts. But those 8 weeks on 22mg eod, workout recovery and sleep was great. All the aches and pains are back too. Does this make sense? At the same time, I have to control my hgb/hct, but I can't live like this with these sleep issues.

For what it's worth, the sleep issues I mean are falling asleep fine about 9 or 10pm, but then wide awake for hours at 2am. Sometimes, I can fall back asleep if I load up on melatonin like I did last night then taking more at 3am, but I'll feel terrible after being awake for a few hours from the residual melatonin in my system.

Or, is this where dhea and pregnenolone should be making the difference since those levels are very low too? Bump those up instead?

 

[Cataceous]

I had similar sleep problems in the past. I discuss my sleep protocol here:
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/i-haven’t-slept-in-4-years-what-to-do.22320/post-191700
Although there are exceptions, guys are generally reporting that higher testosterone at night is more likely to interfere with sleep. I experienced some subtle improvements by switching to a daily propionate/longer ester blend. With AM injections serum testosterone is highest early in the day, somewhat mimicking what men experience naturally. Have you measured you progesterone? If it's low then supplementation before bed can help with sleep. I am in favor of supplementing with DHEA, if needed, to maintain levels around 300 mcg/dL. Some guys do get calming results with pregnenolone, but I had the opposite. That's why I find it better to control progesterone directly.

 

[GreenMachineX]

@Cataceous
Yeah, I understand that most of the time testosterone too high causes sleep issues, but I also can't argue with how it actually happened. Either way, here i am, wide awake at 3am again and melatonin isn't even helping. I have had progesterone at some point tested, but I was just told it was normal. I couldn't find the results of that test. How do you supplement prog if I were to find it was also low?

 

[Cataceous]

The simplest way to supplement progesterone is apply a topical formulation. I found progesterone in coconut oil to be effective, and you can buy it on Amazon. A reasonable starting dose is 5-10 mg. Progesterone can also be injected if you get a product intended for that, and since I'm doing a bedtime injection anyway I just add that in. Then you're looking at doses under a milligram. The Labcorp reference range for progesterone goes down to zero, so even an undetectable level is considered normal by that standard. I think there may be benefits in staying closer to midrange, particularly if TRT has suppressed natural production.

 

[Gman86]

The simplest way to supplement progesterone is apply a topical formulation. I found progesterone in coconut oil to be effective, and you can buy it on Amazon. A reasonable starting dose is 5-10 mg. Progesterone can also be injected if you get a product intended for that, and since I'm doing a bedtime injection anyway I just add that in. Then you're looking at doses under a milligram. The Labcorp reference range for progesterone goes down to zero, so even an undetectable level is considered normal by that standard. I think there may be benefits in staying closer to midrange, particularly if TRT has suppressed natural production.

Where do u apply ur progesterone cream? And what time of day?

 

[Cataceous]

Where do u apply ur progesterone cream? And what time of day?

I use injections now. When I used progesterone in coconut oil I applied it to the scrotum or inner thighs. Always at night before sleep.

 

[Gman86]

I use injections now. When I used progesterone in coconut oil I applied it to the scrotum or inner thighs. Always at night before sleep.

Ur the second guy I’ve seen that applied the progesterone to their scrotum. What’s the benefit of applying it to the scrotum, just absorption?

 

[Cataceous]

Ur the second guy I’ve seen that applied the progesterone to their scrotum. What’s the benefit of applying it to the scrotum, just absorption?

That's it.

 

[JA Battle]

Ur the second guy I’ve seen that applied the progesterone to their scrotum. What’s the benefit of applying it to the scrotum, just absorption?

I’ve applied progesterone in ethanol to scrotum. Up to 6.8 mg daily.

due to high level of 5ar in pubic region I’d expect for a disproportionate amount of trans scrotal application to convert into allopregnenolone.

 

[gerardo]

I believe I've had an epiphany and have been looking at everything all wrong for years. At some point, I eventually came up with the conclusion that the testosterone was causing my sleep issues, as in too much testosterone. But I never really considered why during the first 2 years of therapy at 160mg weekly and 120mg weekly I was sleeping great. Probably because it took a couple months after the drop to 100mg for the sleep issues to arise. When I first switched to 20mg eod, then increased to 22mg eod, I slept better than I did in years. But, now that I see where my trough was on the eod protocol, versus the 100mg per week protocol, then compared to the >120mg per week protocols, I'm now convinced that my t was too low with the 100mg per week and now again since dropping to 16mg eod.

I'm getting 5 hours sleep and feeling like trash again after my workouts. But those 8 weeks on 22mg eod, workout recovery and sleep was great. All the aches and pains are back too. Does this make sense? At the same time, I have to control my hgb/hct, but I can't live like this with these sleep issues.

For what it's worth, the sleep issues I mean are falling asleep fine about 9 or 10pm, but then wide awake for hours at 2am. Sometimes, I can fall back asleep if I load up on melatonin like I did last night then taking more at 3am, but I'll feel terrible after being awake for a few hours from the residual melatonin in my system.

Or, is this where dhea and pregnenolone should be making the difference since those levels are very low too? Bump those up instead?

If you were well on the 22 mg EOD protocol why did you change?

 

[Gman86]

I’ve applied progesterone in ethanol to scrotum. Up to 6.8 mg daily.

due to high level of 5ar in pubic region I’d expect for a disproportionate amount of trans scrotal application to convert into allopregnenolone.

Which is a good thing I assume?

 

[JA Battle]

Which is a good thing I assume?

It is neither good nor bad. It is just what is the likely outcome.

No different than testosterone cream disproportionately converting into dhtFor some it may be desirable, others not so much.

I personally am torn on the subject. I prefer for a more quantifiable outcome like I get with injections. I inject estradiol and dihydrotestosterone for this reason.

With transdermal we cannot be certain or completely control absorption or metabolism of hormones.

it may be better, but it’s not the path I have chosen to experiment with currently.

I also have injectable progesterone, dheas, and pregnenolone s.

 

[GreenMachineX]

If you were well on the 22 mg EOD protocol why did you change?

My hct and hgb were climbing, 51.9 hct and 18.1 hgb.

 

[Gman86]

It is neither good nor bad. It is just what is the likely outcome.

No different than testosterone cream disproportionately converting into dhtFor some it may be desirable, others not so much.

I personally am torn on the subject. I prefer for a more quantifiable outcome like I get with injections. I inject estradiol and dihydrotestosterone for this reason.

With transdermal we cannot be certain or completely control absorption or metabolism of hormones.

it may be better, but it’s not the path I have chosen to experiment with currently.

I also have injectable progesterone, dheas, and pregnenolone s.

Are those injectables u mentioned prescribed? If not, do u mind sharing where u bought them?

I definitely understand preferring injectables over transdermals, for the reason u mentioned, as well as the inconvenience of them and risk of transference, but what is the benefit of injectables over orals, in ur opinion, for the compounds u mentioned?

 

[JA Battle]

No they are not prescribed.

injectable over orals for the same reason. Unable to control absorption and metabolism. Orally consumed hormones vary in absorption too albeit to a lesser extent. Also, the hormones are aggressively converted by the many 5ar and aromatase enzymes in liver.

I’m trying to give myself circulating hormone levels without disproportionate increases in metabolites. The metabolites can then be created peripherally as they are suppose to in the target tissues in the quantities they are suppose to.

 

[GreenMachineX]

It is neither good nor bad. It is just what is the likely outcome.

No different than testosterone cream disproportionately converting into dhtFor some it may be desirable, others not so much.

I personally am torn on the subject. I prefer for a more quantifiable outcome like I get with injections. I inject estradiol and dihydrotestosterone for this reason.

With transdermal we cannot be certain or completely control absorption or metabolism of hormones.

it may be better, but it’s not the path I have chosen to experiment with currently.

I also have injectable progesterone, dheas, and pregnenolone s.

I've been wondering if my transdermal dhea is converting to more estrogen than sublingual or oral... water retention is way up. Any idea on that?

 

[JA Battle]

It very well may. Dhea interacts with aromatase and 5ar. If you apply on scrotal tissue then there will be an overwhelming conversion percentage into androgens vs estrogens.