Is HCG enough to backfill pathways?

[Vitamin_C]

For me, it depends on the brand. Pregnyl raised my total testosterone level, my DHEA went from around 400, to around 800 (was not supplementing with DHEA or pregnenolone), testicles were a little bigger than pre-TRT, and loads were bigger than pre-TRT.

On compounded HCG, it doesn’t do any of those things. DHEA is exactly where it was pre-TRT, while injecting 1000iu’s/ week on top of my testosterone cypionate.

Basically Pregnyl did everything that you hear HCG should theoretically be doing, but with compounded HCG, it does none of the things for me that HCG should do. Testicles are very small, even while on 1000iu’s/ week. Not sure if they’d be smaller on no HCG at all, as I’ve never done testosterone by itself.

You know I was wondering this, taking HCG myself, if the compounded stuff was as good as pregnyl and I don't think it is. My testicles also don't seem as plump on 1000 IU a week. I think I'm going to go to the pharmacy and get Pregnyl next refill and stop messing around with the compounded stuff, even if pregnyl is more expenses.

 

[Gman86]

You know I was wondering this, taking HCG myself, if the compounded stuff was as good as pregnyl and I don't think it is. My testicles also don't seem as plump on 1000 IU a week. I think I'm going to go to the pharmacy and get Pregnyl next refill and stop messing around with the compounded stuff, even if pregnyl is more expenses.

Ya there technically shouldn’t be any differences, according to the studies. But most studies are flawed. In fact, I think it’s safe to say I’ve never seen a study to date that wasn’t somewhat flawed. Some are just more flawed than others. I’ve never seen a study where they took into consideration all variables. Plus, sometimes there’s variables that we just don’t even understand yet, or aren’t aware of yet.

So I personally believe that going by anectodal evidence is just as valuable as basing decisions purely off of studies. I think the best way to go about something is to obviously take both into consideration.

I’ve 100% had a drastically different experience with compounded HCG vs Pregnyl. Do I conclusively know why? No. Were these differences all in my head? No. Was the differences real, and verified by bloodwork, on multiple different labs spaced out months in between? Yes. So there’s nobody that can tell me that there isn’t a difference between the two. Do I respect people’s opinions when they say this is impossible? Yes. Because they are strictly going by the studies. But at the end of the day, there is absolutely, without a doubt, a difference between the two.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Effect of TRT vs hCG/FSH on upstream hormone pathways.

The role of gonadotropins in testicular and adrenal androgen biosynthesis pathways -insights from males with congenital hypogonadotropic hypogonadism on hCG/rFSH and on testosterone replacement SUMMARY Objective: To delineate the role of gonadotropins in male androgen biosynthesis pathways...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Forty2]

HCG did not raise my Pregnenolone, if you are prone to Anxiety and Depression check your Preg level, Pregnenolone has been working wonders for my anxiety and social anxiety, I feel super calm now, but it is all about replenishing low levels of hormones. I use a RX now from Empower, but if I can suggest a brand OTC is Nutricology, that works well, but before really test your blood for it

How much pregnenolone do you take and how much hCG do you take?

 

[Gianluca]

How much pregnenolone do you take and how much hCG do you take?

no HCG at this moment, only 100mg Pregnenolone

 

[tareload]

Since pregnyl is from urinary HCG, and compounding pharmacies use recombinant HCG (basically HCG from a lab, I think), I would have to assume this is the reason.

Really? What gave you that impression?

 

[tareload]

The only other thing that I can think of, has to do with the bacteriostatic water used to reconstitute the lypholized powder. With compounding HCG, it’s always been straight bacteriostatic water for me. With Pregnyl, it comes with a 10ml vial of water mixed with a few other ingredients. Just noticed that the actual HCG has some other ingredients in it as well. So it could possibly have something to do with these extra ingredients mixed in with the HCG, as well as the solvent used to turn the powder into liquid.

So your hypothesis is that the ingredients listed for the bacteriostatic water included with Pregnyl are not in fact consistent with formulation for bacteriostatic water:


Pregnyl:

BACTERIOSTATIC WATER Rx only for Injection, USP

So the sodium chloride is denaturing or otherwise inactivating the glycoprotein?

 

[Gman86]

Really? What gave you that impression?

I don’t even remember writing that it was so long ago lol. Just looked it up again tho and I think that’s correct. Is it not?

 

[tareload]

I don’t even remember writing that it was so long ago lol. Just looked it up again tho and I think that’s correct. Is it not?

Source or reference?

Compounding pharmacies sourcing for recombinant hCG.

That would be funny.

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2000/21149lbl.pdf

https://www.emdserono.com/us-en/pi/ovidrel-prefilled-syringe-pi.pdf

 

[Gman86]

So your hypothesis is that the ingredients listed for the bacteriostatic water included with Pregnyl are not in fact consistent with formulation for bacteriostatic water:


Pregnyl:

View attachment 20324

BACTERIOSTATIC WATER Rx only for Injection, USP

View attachment 20325

So the sodium chloride is denaturing or otherwise inactivating the glycoprotein?

Not sure about all that. I just know that Pregnyl, at least for me, was just as potent on day 1 as it was on around day 60 of the same vial. Not sure about HCG with just bac water as I’ve never been on HCG monotherapy with anything other than Pregnyl, but pretty sure most people say that compounded HCG isn’t usually just as potent after 2 months using the same vial. I was just trying to figure out why Pregnyl took so long so degrade, compared to what we usually hear about an open vial of HCG and it’s potency loss overtime. And the main difference I saw was that the liquid that comes with Pregnyl has sodium chloride it, which I looked up and it supposedly helps prevent degradation of the HCG. So I’m thinking if that’s what it’s in there for, maybe it’s doing it’s job, and is why Pregnyl seems to keep potency for such a long time compared to what we hear about other forms of HCG that come with bac water, or requires u to supply ur own liquid to reconstitute it

 

[Gman86]

Source or reference?

Compounding pharmacies sourcing for recombinant hCG.

That would be funny.

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2000/21149lbl.pdf

https://www.emdserono.com/us-en/pi/ovidrel-prefilled-syringe-pi.pdf

Just googled it and this was the first site to pop up. Not sure how reliable of a source it is

hCG, Pregnyl, Novarel

www.fertilitydr.com

But even Merck’s website says it’s urinary derived.

https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/p/pregnyl/pregnyl_pi.pdf

 

[tareload]

What to Take with Test Enanthate 250?

I like your dedication man. Nice work! I admit I have not reconstituted hCG and used a simple graduated cylinder to calculate the increased solution density. With the FDA issue, Empower hCG may be going away (already has? I can’t keep track). If their directions stated what you quoted, your...

forums.t-nation.com

What to Take with Test Enanthate 250?

From Shaun Nourian (circa 2014). Maybe they changed their directions at some point?

forums.t-nation.com

What to Take with Test Enanthate 250?

For those that want more info on bio equivalence rules. Good overview:

forums.t-nation.com

 

[tareload]

Just googled it and this was the first site to pop up. Not sure how reliable of a source it is

hCG, Pregnyl, Novarel

www.fertilitydr.com

But even Merck’s website says it’s urinary derived.

https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/p/pregnyl/pregnyl_pi.pdf

Yes, Pregnyl and other generics (Fresenius) are urinary derived. Thank those nice pregnant ladies in India or China. Your other option is Ovidrel or equivalent (see refererences above) which is recombinant.

I appreciate you sharing your experience.

I would agree that Pregnyl or Fresenius (I've used both) do their job well. I went to the trouble of diluting Ovidrel into a 5000 IU bottle (5000 IU per 5 mL) with bacteriostatic water and per normalized IU it never matched the same subjective or quantitative benefit of urinary derived hCG. I did this because u-hCG is a biologic soup even after chromatographic separation and the use of r-hCG addresses the potential risk of prion contamination.

Epidermal growth factor contamination and concentrations of intact human chorionic gonadotropin in commercial preparations

Frontiers | The Development of Gonadotropins for Clinical Use in the Treatment of Infertility

The first commercially available gonadotropin product was a human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) extract, followed by animal pituitary gonadotropin extracts. T...

www.frontiersin.org

All compounded hCG in the US (now a moot point for the most part) was urinary derived and I personally never tried any of them. I'm kinda particular about my quality control with biologics. But hey, I've met MDs who have no problem injecting themselves with "research" peptides . FYI.

 

[tareload]

Really fun graph:

Note the circles aren't drawn to scale!

Human chorionic gonadotrophin pharmaceutical formulations of urinary origin display high levels of contaminant proteins–A label‐free quantitation proteomics study - PMC

To determine whether there is a measurable protein background in different formulations of urinary and recombinant human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG). Primary outcome measures: identification of contaminant proteins in urinary‐derived formulations ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Great video from Dr. Andrew Winge on the need to backfill hormones on TRT (spoiler: many guys don't need to worry about it):