Has anyone tried this method? Try it if you don't feel good

[eli]

Some people say they only feel good for a couple weeks when they change their dosage, and then once blood stabilizes they feel like shit again

Well try this,

If you take 50mg twice a week, take 70 and 30 one week, next week 60-40, next week 50-50 then 70-30 again and repeat

I'm coming into the conclusion that stable levels don't work for some and technically our bodies don't have stable levels

 

[gerardo]

Some people say they only feel good for a couple weeks when they change their dosage, and then once blood stabilizes they feel like shit again

Well try this,

If you take 50mg twice a week, take 70 and 30 one week, next week 60-40, next week 50-50 then 70-30 again and repeat

I'm coming into the conclusion that stable levels don't work for some and technically our bodies don't have stable levels

What would be your SHBG, Estradiol, TT and FT?

 

[GreenMachineX]

Some people say they only feel good for a couple weeks when they change their dosage, and then once blood stabilizes they feel like shit again

I'm coming into the conclusion that stable levels don't work for some and technically our bodies don't have stable levels

I'm starting to wonder this too. I've been on 22mg eod for 8 weeks now and my libido is completely gone. When I first switched from 40mg e3d, for a few weeks my libido went up to what should be considered *normal*. I'm going to increase now to 24mg eod now.

 

[madman]

Some people say they only feel good for a couple weeks when they change their dosage, and then once blood stabilizes they feel like shit again

Well try this,

If you take 50mg twice a week, take 70 and 30 one week, next week 60-40, next week 50-50 then 70-30 again and repeat

I'm coming into the conclusion that stable levels don't work for some and technically our bodies don't have stable levels

This is common when starting trt let alone tweaking a protocol (increasing T dose) T levels/dopamine are rising and hormones are in FLUX during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized.

The first 4-6 weeks (flux/adjustment) means nothing when looking at the overall bigger picture.

It will take the body another 2-3 months to adapt to those new levels and this is the critical time period when one should gauge how they truly feel overall on such protocol (dose T/injection frequency).

Other things to keep in mind are not only steady-state 24/7 but the fact that most are running absurdly high trough TT/FT levels which the body would nor could ever produce endogenously.

Excess T levels steady-state most likely have some negative effects on neurotransmitters let alone can cause many other sides for some individuals.

Top it off that your hpta is shutdown.

Unfortunately, there is much more involved when it comes to libido/ed.....multifaceted.

 

[madman]

Notice in all my posts on the forum that I am particular in the wording used when it comes to explaining the first 4-6 weeks.....adjust and the following 2-3 months after blood levels have stabilized.....adapt!

Unfortunately, this is the part many on trt do not understand when starting trt let alone tweaking protocol (dose T/injection frequency).




*Both are used to express a change in something to fit new conditions. However, adapt is generally more permanent and takes time to achieve, whereas adjust is quicker and less permanent. An adjustment tends to be more minor, whereas an adaptation is more major.

 

[madman]

Again when looking at the bigger picture the first 4-6 weeks is misleading.

The uninformed expect that everything should be good 6 weeks in and if they do not feel well start tweaking a protocol left/right (jacking up the dose T/changing injection frequency) without even understanding that it will take time (2-3 months) after blood levels have stabilized for the body to adapt.

Like I have stated many times before the following 2-3 months is a critical time period that will separate the men from the boys as many end up bailing out well before ever giving the protocol a fighting chance.

Patience is key when it comes to trt.

Unless you have truly given the protocol a fighting chance then it would be absurd to state that it is not working!

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

@madman/ You're right...but...there are outliers; those who do well on ultra low doses, those who need to run above 200 mg, weekly, those who do well running high E2. As I wrote in another thread, for some, odd protocols might work, irrespective of what is a generally accepted standard regarding dosing and frequency. If someone has found something that works with a degree of consistency then that's all that matters. I think we can agree that if TRT was straightforward and uncomplicated for every man, there'd be no need for any online forums. We'd all be living and enjoying our lives.

 

[Cataceous]

@madman/ You're right...but...there are outliers; those who do well on ultra low doses, those who need to run above 200 mg, weekly, ...

Outliers in nature produce 3 mg or 10 mg of testosterone daily. Taking 200 mg of cypionate weekly is averaging 20 mg of testosterone daily. That's beyond an outlier. If there are guys who truly need this much to feel good then they are surely compensating for other problems.

 

[madman]

@madman/ You're right...but...there are outliers; those who do well on ultra low doses, those who need to run above 200 mg, weekly, those who do well running high E2. As I wrote in another thread, for some, odd protocols might work, irrespective of what is a generally accepted standard regarding dosing and frequency. If someone has found something that works with a degree of consistency then that's all that matters. I think we can agree that if TRT was straightforward and uncomplicated for every man, there'd be no need for any online forums. We'd all be living and enjoying our lives.

Yes, some men do need slightly higher doses than 200 mg/week but it is far and few.

Many may do well using a much lower dose <100mg/week.

Most men can easily achieve a healthy FT let alone very high FT using much lower doses <200 mg/week, and yes even men with high SHBG.

A large majority have no clue where their trough let alone peak FT level truly sits on such protocol (dose T/injection frequency) as they are not testing using accurate assays and many are running levels much higher than they need/think.

Let alone let's not even get into many not even giving a protocol a fighting chance before jumping the gun a jacking up their T dose 6 weeks in because they do not feel well.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

Outliers in nature produce 3 mg or 10 mg of testosterone daily. Taking 200 mg of cypionate weekly is averaging 20 mg of testosterone daily. That's beyond an outlier. If there are guys who truly need this much to feel good then they are surely compensating for other problems.

The question of androgen resistance, I believe, is similar to cellular thyroid resistance. On the latter, there are people who need extremely high doses of either T3, T4 and/or combined or desiccated in order to feel well and function, physically and psychologically. Thyroid resistance is seen in major depressive disorder and bipolar illness. I'm currently up to 3 grains(180 mg) of desiccated. I'm feeling a tiny bit better but I'll need to keep titrating. Similarly, there could be men who, for reasons we don't yet understand, truly need a high dosage of testosterone due to physiological cellular resistance.

Treating to symptom resolution, irrespective of dose, whether testosterone or thyroid, should be the clinical goal, not going by labs or some arbitrary cut off point

 

[Cataceous]

The question of androgen resistance, I believe, is similar to cellular thyroid resistance. On the latter, there are people who need extremely high doses of either T3, T4 and/or combined or desiccated in order to feel well and function, physically and psychologically. Thyroid resistance is seen in major depressive disorder and bipolar illness. I'm currently up to 3 grains(180 mg) of desiccated. I'm feeling a tiny bit better but I'll need to keep titrating. Similarly, there could be men who, for reasons we don't yet understand, truly need a high dosage of testosterone due to physiological cellular resistance.

Treating to symptom resolution, irrespective of dose, whether testosterone or thyroid, should be the clinical goal, not going by labs or some arbitrary cut off point

Presumably you're not referring to the rare conditions that are better characterized: thyroid hormone resistance, androgen insensitivity syndrome

I'll remain skeptical of "treating to symptom resolution, irrespective of dose." You could treat a huge number of maladies "to symptom resolution" with sufficient doses of painkillers. But in the end, if you don't understand the underlying condition then eventually you may get into trouble.

 

[JA Battle]

The question of androgen resistance, I believe, is similar to cellular thyroid resistance. On the latter, there are people who need extremely high doses of either T3, T4 and/or combined or desiccated in order to feel well and function, physically and psychologically. Thyroid resistance is seen in major depressive disorder and bipolar illness. I'm currently up to 3 grains(180 mg) of desiccated. I'm feeling a tiny bit better but I'll need to keep titrating. Similarly, there could be men who, for reasons we don't yet understand, truly need a high dosage of testosterone due to physiological cellular resistance.

Treating to symptom resolution, irrespective of dose, whether testosterone or thyroid, should be the clinical goal, not going by labs or some arbitrary cut off point

Likely scenario is that the ratio of t4:t3 is not suitable for you if it’s not working. Either that or there is adrenal issues accompanying this scenario.

That’s More than double t dosage, and double thyroid dosage that a human naturally makes.

Your high dosages of both hormones are impacting each other and other hormones.

im finally feeling well after a wasted chunk of my life injecting 20-30mg per day. Ive settled on a much lower dose.

you said “ultra low doses” what do you consider an ultra low dose? Is 5.5mg of testosterone enanthate plus 3mg testosterone propionate daily ultra low? If you believe it is, youd be incorrect. That is a physiological dose. 6.25mg of testosterone is what an average man makes daily. It’s what I take. I’m 5’9 185lbs 12% body fat. Libido is finally what I’d consider normal adding 7.5 mcg of t3 nightly at bedtime.

I also get a very nice libido boost from adding 16mcg of estradiol valerate injected daily for a few days however I’m abstaining from that until I’m 100% on my rt3 level going down which is a newfound issue right as I was about to replace my estradiol. (T3 may raise estradiol also) I aromatize at a low rate.

I refuse to try to work on multiple things at once. Be regimented and replace hormones with what we know healthy young men make daily. (These are what we make daily naturally when we are young and healthy) replacement of added estradiol or dht is based on individual and is not needed by most but some may benefit.

-Using NDT as the most useful ratio (not always the case for everyone) 1.25-1.5 grains daily. Did you know most t3 is secreted at night following high afternoon/evening thyrotropin secretion.
-6-8mg of testosterone daily(not counting ester weight)
-18-40mcg of estradiol daily (I have estradiol valerate) important for libido, and at some level cortisol and thyroid.
-400-800mcg of dht daily (I have dihydrotestosterone valerate) dht can be important for thyroid conversion among other things.
-Rare instance of needing cortisone acetate or hydrocortisone in 20mg per day split into 4 doses. (usually correcting above hormones allows for normal cortisol pattern.) cortisol is also important for thyroid conversion and cellular action.
-supplement pregnenolone, dhea, progesterone as needed with low doses.
-possibly use growth hormone at 1iu daily. This can be important for thyroid conversion. Estradiol is important for growth hormone secretion.

these aren’t in exact order but generally thyroid first. Or testosterone and thyroid together. Then the rest. Context is key to determine what to prioritize based on an individuals bloodwork.

In doing all of these things our collective success rate will be very high. It leaves no reason to not be well. Feeling well is like a chain. If one of these links is weak, then it doesn’t matter how strong you make any of the other links.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

Presumably you're not referring to the rare conditions that are better characterized: thyroid hormone resistance, androgen insensitivity syndrome

I'll remain skeptical of "treating to symptom resolution, irrespective of dose." You could treat a huge number of maladies "to symptom resolution" with sufficient doses of painkillers. But in the end, if you don't understand the underlying condition then eventually you may get into trouble.

Not rare, IMO. And the opioid analogy isn't philosophically equivalent.

I consulted a psychiatrist who has been using high doses of t3 for years for patients who have unipolar depression and bipolar depression. Some patients need 100, up to 200 mcg, daily. Dr. Peter Whybrow, chief of psychiatry at UCLA has been researching and using high dose t4 in treatment resistant bipolar patients for decades.

Symptom resolution, irrespective of dose, is valid. Referring to thyroid dosing, most doctors are afraid to titrate t3 or t4 or desiccated to supraphysiologic doses because what they've been taught is erroneous. Dr. Tammas Kelly, whom I consulted, cites the research to counter all the fears and misinformation surrounding high dose thyroid therapy. The only study of supraphysiologic testosterone was dosed up to 600 mg, weekly, and though it was a small study, no ill effects were manifested. There needs to be more studies, both ultra low dose and ultra high dose. And, again, I don't believe that thyroid or androgen resistance are rare.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

Likely scenario is that the ratio of t4:t3 is not suitable for you if it’s not working. Either that or there is adrenal issues accompanying this scenario.

That’s More than double t dosage, and double thyroid dosage that a human naturally makes.

Your high dosages of both hormones are impacting each other and other hormones.

im finally feeling well after a wasted chunk of my life injecting 20-30mg per day. Ive settled on a much lower dose.

you said “ultra low doses” what do you consider an ultra low dose? Is 5.5mg of testosterone enanthate plus 3mg testosterone propionate daily ultra low? If you believe it is, youd be incorrect. That is a physiological dose. 6.25mg of testosterone is what an average man makes daily. It’s what I take. I’m 5’9 185lbs 12% body fat. Libido is finally what I’d consider normal adding 7.5 mcg of t3 nightly at bedtime.

I also get a very nice libido boost from adding 16mcg of estradiol valerate injected daily for a few days however I’m abstaining from that until I’m 100% on my rt3 level going down which is a newfound issue right as I was about to replace my estradiol. (T3 may raise estradiol also) I aromatize at a low rate.

I refuse to try to work on multiple things at once. Be regimented and replace hormones with what we know healthy young men make daily. (These are what we make daily naturally when we are young and healthy) replacement of added estradiol or dht is based on individual and is not needed by most but some may benefit.

-Using NDT as the most useful ratio (not always the case for everyone) 1.25-1.5 grains daily. Did you know most t3 is secreted at night following high afternoon/evening thyrotropin secretion.
-6-8mg of testosterone daily(not counting ester weight)
-18-40mcg of estradiol daily (I have estradiol valerate) important for libido, and at some level cortisol and thyroid.
-400-800mcg of dht daily (I have dihydrotestosterone valerate) dht can be important for thyroid conversion among other things.
-Rare instance of needing cortisone acetate or hydrocortisone in 20mg per day split into 4 doses. (usually correcting above hormones allows for normal cortisol pattern.) cortisol is also important for thyroid conversion and cellular action.
-supplement pregnenolone, dhea, progesterone as needed with low doses.
-possibly use growth hormone at 1iu daily. This can be important for thyroid conversion. Estradiol is important for growth hormone secretion.

these aren’t in exact order but generally thyroid first. Or testosterone and thyroid together. Then the rest. Context is key to determine what to prioritize based on an individuals bloodwork.

In doing all of these things our collective success rate will be very high. It leaves no reason to not be well. Feeling well is like a chain. If one of these links is weak, then it doesn’t matter how strong you make any of the other links.

Always pleased to read of a protocol that's working.

 

[gerardo]

Not rare, IMO. And the opioid analogy isn't philosophically equivalent.

I consulted a psychiatrist who has been using high doses of t3 for years for patients who have unipolar depression and bipolar depression. Some patients need 100, up to 200 mcg, daily. Dr. Peter Whybrow, chief of psychiatry at UCLA has been researching and using high dose t4 in treatment resistant bipolar patients for decades.

Symptom resolution, irrespective of dose, is valid. Referring to thyroid dosing, most doctors are afraid to titrate t3 or t4 or desiccated to supraphysiologic doses because what they've been taught is erroneous. Dr. Tammas Kelly, whom I consulted, cites the research to counter all the fears and misinformation surrounding high dose thyroid therapy. The only study of supraphysiologic testosterone was dosed up to 600 mg, weekly, and though it was a small study, no ill effects were manifested. There needs to be more studies, both ultra low dose and ultra high dose. And, again, I don't believe that thyroid or androgen resistance are rare.

This is interesting. Does high doses of T3 and T4 not suppress the thyroid and would TSH be very low? I find it very difficult to lose weight and very easy to gain weight and cholesterol and triglycerides always high. Doctors always prescribe statins but it does not solve the problem. And if you talk about taking T3 and T4, they don't agree. Difficult to understand the medical profession.

 

[Gman86]

This is interesting. Does high doses of T3 and T4 not suppress the thyroid and would TSH be very low? I find it very difficult to lose weight and very easy to gain weight and cholesterol and triglycerides always high. Doctors always prescribe statins but it does not solve the problem. And if you talk about taking T3 and T4, they don't agree. Difficult to understand the medical profession.

Whats ur diet look like? Through diet, exercise, lowering stress and optimizing sleep u should be able to improve both ur thyroid levels and lipids. Ur thyroid levels might not be able to be optimized without thyroid meds, but 95%+ of people should be able to avoid needing a statin through those lifestyle modifications I mentioned

 

[Gman86]

Not rare, IMO. And the opioid analogy isn't philosophically equivalent.

I consulted a psychiatrist who has been using high doses of t3 for years for patients who have unipolar depression and bipolar depression. Some patients need 100, up to 200 mcg, daily. Dr. Peter Whybrow, chief of psychiatry at UCLA has been researching and using high dose t4 in treatment resistant bipolar patients for decades.

Symptom resolution, irrespective of dose, is valid. Referring to thyroid dosing, most doctors are afraid to titrate t3 or t4 or desiccated to supraphysiologic doses because what they've been taught is erroneous. Dr. Tammas Kelly, whom I consulted, cites the research to counter all the fears and misinformation surrounding high dose thyroid therapy. The only study of supraphysiologic testosterone was dosed up to 600 mg, weekly, and though it was a small study, no ill effects were manifested. There needs to be more studies, both ultra low dose and ultra high dose. And, again, I don't believe that thyroid or androgen resistance are rare.

I was listening to a podcast not too long ago with a psychiatrist that said he has successfully treated over 85% of his bipolar clients by just optimizing their thyroid levels.

 

[madman]

Not rare, IMO. And the opioid analogy isn't philosophically equivalent.

I consulted a psychiatrist who has been using high doses of t3 for years for patients who have unipolar depression and bipolar depression. Some patients need 100, up to 200 mcg, daily. Dr. Peter Whybrow, chief of psychiatry at UCLA has been researching and using high dose t4 in treatment resistant bipolar patients for decades.

Symptom resolution, irrespective of dose, is valid. Referring to thyroid dosing, most doctors are afraid to titrate t3 or t4 or desiccated to supraphysiologic doses because what they've been taught is erroneous. Dr. Tammas Kelly, whom I consulted, cites the research to counter all the fears and misinformation surrounding high dose thyroid therapy. The only study of supraphysiologic testosterone was dosed up to 600 mg, weekly, and though it was a small study, no ill effects were manifested. There needs to be more studies, both ultra low dose and ultra high dose. And, again, I don't believe that thyroid or androgen resistance are rare.

androgen insensitivity syndrome is rare.

Regarding the thrown-around term androgen resistance used on the numerous forums littered on the internet especially the ones where everyone and their brother that was struggling on a TRT protocol claimed that they need to be running absurdly high trough TT/FT levels to feel good.

If you want to put any weight behind the sensitivity of the AR (androgen receptor) and polymorphism of the AR/CAG repeat length (short/long).....sure.

Even then if such were the case highly doubtful one would need the so-called extremely high doses of T 300-600 mg/week you may think to overcome this and experience the beneficial effects of testosterone!

Again the majority of men on TRT would be able to achieve a healthy FT level using <200 mg/week and some much less.

Sure some men may need slightly higher doses than 200 mg/week but it is far and few!

There are definitely some rare cases where I have heard of people claiming to need doses in the 250-300 mg/week range to overcome this so-called resistance let alone the ones who claim they would need such dose just to hit a high enough TT/FT level to reap the beneficial effects.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Men's Response to Testosterone Depends on their CAG Repeats in Their AR Gene.

Androgen Sensitivity: Beyond the Well-Known © Irina A. Khripun*, Sergey V. Vorobyev Rostov State Medical University, Rostov-on-Don, Russia The gonadal and extragonadal effects of testosterone in men have been actively studied in recent years. To date there is no doubt an increased risk of...

www.excelmale.com

Androgen Sensitivity: Beyond the Well-Known (2020)

*The study of sensitivity to androgens, determined by the length of the trinucleotide repeat CAG in the gene AR, not only explains the phenomenon of a different response to STT in patients with the same level of endogenous T but also is necessary for understanding sexual differentiation, psychological status, sexuality, and reproductive potential, as well as the risks of developing pancreatic cancer and BPH, osteoporosis, disorders of carbohydrate, lipid metabolism and even cardiovascular disease in men. The most important in clinical practice is the ability to predict the patient's response to the STT. In individuals with a low number of CAG repeats in the gene AR due to its high sensitivity to androgens lower doses of T drugs may be used, whereas starting dose inefficiency TRT in men with a large number of trinucleotide repetitions, indicates the need to increase the dose of T.

*Determination of the CAG polymorphism of the AR gene is not recommended for routine practice, but in the near future, it can be used in particular for the selection of individual therapy for androgen deficiency.

Influence of CAG Repeat Polymorphism on the Targets of Testosterone Action

It should be finally acknowledged that the AR CAG repeat polymorphism plays a role in testosterone replacement therapy of males with hypogonadotropic gonadism since shorter AR gene CAG tract lengths was found to yield greater metabolic improvement in response to testosterone administration...

www.excelmale.com

Influence of CAG Repeat Polymorphism on the Targets of Testosterone Action (2015)

*at present AR CAG polymorphism is not recommended in the routine setting however in the near future it could become of clinical relevance because of the theoretical possibility of identifying subjects more or less at risk for various disorders more or less responsive to testosterone treatment

* study of CAG repeat length could allow us to individually tailor testosterone replacement therapy as subjects with shorter CAG repeat could need lower doses of testosterone while men with longer repeats could require higher ones




The CAG repeat polymorphism within the androgen receptor gene and maleness (2003)

Conclusion

The highly polymorphic nature of glutamine residues within the AR protein causes a subtle gradation of androgenicity among individuals. This modulation of androgen effects may be small but continuously present during a man’s lifetime, thus exerting effects that are measurable in many tissues as various degrees of androgenicity (Fig. 2). It remains to be elucidated whether these insights are important enough to become part of individually useful laboratory assessments. Nevertheless, in interaction with androgens, the CAG repeat polymorphism within the AR gene represents a relevant effector of maleness.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I consulted a psychiatrist who has been using high doses of t3 for years for patients who have unipolar depression and bipolar depression. Some patients need 100, up to 200 mcg, daily. Dr. Peter Whybrow, chief of psychiatry at UCLA has been researching and using high-dose t4 in treatment-resistant bipolar patients for decades.

Regarding testosterone we very well know it has positive effects on mood such as anxiety and depression (mild to moderate) but the jury is still out when it comes to MDD (major depressive disorder).




Symptom resolution, irrespective of dose, is valid.

True up to a point.....side-effects/blood markers!




The only study of supraphysiologic testosterone was dosed up to 600 mg, weekly, and though it was a small study, no ill effects were manifested.

What that one with 43 men.....oh I mean 40 men.....damn, I meant the 21 men on testosterone!


Yes at 600 mg T/week for 10 weeks and unfortunately testosterone levels will be in flux during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) so how many weeks are the 21 men at steady-state?

Definitely not a full 10.

Regardless if you are concerned with using testosterone for the sole purpose of muscle enhancement then banging steroid doses 300-600 mg/week of T would make sense.

Anyone claiming to need such absurdly high doses to achieve a so-called healthy FT let alone overcome the thrown-around term androgen resistance that is commonly spouted on the numerous forums littered on the internet is just Ludacris!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men (1996)​

Methods

We randomly assigned 43 normal men to one of four groups: placebo with no exercise, testosterone with no exercise, placebo plus exercise, and testosterone plus exercise. The men received injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate or placebo weekly for 10 weeks. The men in the exercise groups performed standardized weight-lifting exercises three times weekly. Before and after the treatment period, the fat-free mass was determined by underwater weighing, muscle size was measured by magnetic resonance imaging, and the strength of the arms and legs was assessed by bench-pressing and squatting exercises, respectively.




Methods

STUDY DESIGN

This study was approved by the institutional review boards of the Harbor–UCLA Research and Education Institute and the Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science. All the study subjects gave informed written consent. The subjects were normal men weighing 90 to 115 percent of their ideal body weights; they were 19 to 40 years of age and had experience with weight lifting. They were recruited through advertisements in local newspapers and community colleges. None had participated in competitive sports in the preceding 12 months. Men who had ever taken anabolic agents or recreational drugs or had had a psychiatric or behavioral disorder were excluded from the study.

Of the 50 men who were recruited, 7 dropped out during the control period because of problems with scheduling or compliance. The remaining 43 men were randomly assigned to one of four groups: placebo with no exercise, testosterone with no exercise, placebo plus exercise, and testosterone plus exercise. The study was divided into a 4-week control period, a 10-week treatment period, and a 16-week recovery period. During the four-week control period, the men were asked not to lift any weights or engage in strenuous aerobic exercise.

Of the 43 men, 3 dropped out during the treatment phase: 1 because of problems with compliance, 1 because illicit-drug use was detected by routine drug screening, and 1 because of an automobile accident. Forty men completed the study: 10 in the placebo, no-exercise group; 10 in the testosterone, no-exercise group; 9 in the placebo-plus-exercise group; and 11 in the testosterone-plus-exercise group.




Treatment

The men received either 600 mg of testosterone enanthate in sesame oil or a placebo intramuscularly each week for 10 weeks in the Clinical Research Center. This dose is six times higher than the dose usually given as replacement therapy in men with hypogonadism and is therefore supraphysiologic. Doses as high as 300 mg per week have been given to normal men for 16 to 24 weeks without major toxic effects.34


Notice that the dose used in the study is 6X higher than the average dose given (100 mg/week) to men on TRT.

At least you have some short-term studies using doses in the 300 mg/week range for 16-24 weeks without major toxic effects......keyword is major!

You and I both very well know that if a majority of men were put on 300 mg T/week (lower-end supraphysiological) for TRT that they would be struggling with sides let alone TT/FT levels would be through the roof.

TRT is long-term.




The take-home point!

Our results in no way justify the use of anabolic-androgenic steroids in sports, because, with extended use, such drugs have potentially serious adverse effects on the cardiovascular system, prostate, lipid metabolism, and insulin sensitivity. Moreover, the use of any performance-enhancing agent in sports raises serious ethical issues. Our findings do, however, raise the possibility that the short-term administration of androgens may have beneficial effects in immobilized patients, during space travel, and in patients with cancer-related cachexia, a disease caused by the human immunodeficiency virus, or other chronic wasting disorders.

 

[gerardo]

Whats ur diet look like? Through diet, exercise, lowering stress and optimizing sleep u should be able to improve both ur thyroid levels and lipids. Ur thyroid levels might not be able to be optimized without thyroid meds, but 95%+ of people should be able to avoid needing a statin through those lifestyle modifications I mentioned

I think I need thyroid optimization. What dosage of T4 and / or T3 would be safe to take?

02/12/2021

Hematocrit in% .............: 49 (40.0 to 55.0)

Thyro-stimulating hormone - tsh .....: 1,700 µui / ml (0.35 µui / ml to 4.94 µui / ml)

Free thyroxin - free t4 ...........: 0.75 ng / dl (0.70 to 1.48 ng / dl)

Total cholesterol ....................: 228 mg / dl desirable value: less than 190 mg / dl

Hdl cholesterol ......................: 34 mg / dl desirable value: greater than 40 mg / dl

Triglycerides .......................: 302.0 mg / dl desirable value: less than 150 mg / dl

Glycosyled hemoglobin .............: 5.4% low risk of diabetes | <5.7

Ferritine ...........................: 58.7 ng / ml Reference values: 17.9 to 464 ng / ml

T3- free triiodotyronin ...........: 2.55 pg / ml (1.71 to 3.71 pg / ml)

Thyroxin - t4 total .................: 4.60 µg / dl (4.87 to 11.72 µg / dl)

T3 reverse ..........................: 19.40 ng / dl (6 - 76)

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

androgen insensitivity syndrome is rare.

Regarding the thrown around term androgen resistance used on the numerous forums littered on the internet especially the ones where everyone and their brother that was struggling on a trt protocol claimed that they need to be running absurdly high trough TT/FT levels to feel good.

If you want to put any weight behind the sensitivity of the AR (androgen receptor) and polymorphism of the AR/CAG repeat length (short/long).....sure.

Even then if such were the case highly doubtful one would need the so-called extremely high doses of T 300-600 mg/week you may think to overcome this and experience the beneficial effects of testosterone!

Again the majority of men on trt would be able to achieve a healthy FT level using <200 mg/week and some much less.

Sure some men may need slightly higher doses than 200 mg/week but it is far and few!

There are definitely some rare cases where I have heard of people claiming to need doses in the 250-300 mg/week range to overcome this so-called resistance let alone the ones who claim they would need such dose just to hit a high enough TT/FT level to reap the beneficial effects.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Men's Response to Testosterone Depends on their CAG Repeats in Their AR Gene.

Androgen Sensitivity: Beyond the Well-Known © Irina A. Khripun*, Sergey V. Vorobyev Rostov State Medical University, Rostov-on-Don, Russia The gonadal and extragonadal effects of testosterone in men have been actively studied in recent years. To date there is no doubt an increased risk of...

www.excelmale.com

Androgen Sensitivity: Beyond the Well-Known (2020)

*The study of sensitivity to androgens, determined by the length of the trinucleotide repeat CAG in the gene AR, not only explains the phenomenon of a different response to STT in patients with the same level of endogenous T but also is necessary for understanding sexual differentiation, psychological status, sexuality, and reproductive potential, as well as the risks of developing pancreatic cancer and BPH, osteoporosis, disorders of carbohydrate, lipid metabolism and even cardiovascular disease in men. The most important in clinical practice is the ability to predict the patient's response to the STT. In individuals with a low number of CAG repeats in the gene AR due to its high sensitivity to androgens lower doses of T drugs may be used, whereas starting dose inefficiency TRT in men with a large number of trinucleotide repetitions, indicates the need to increase the dose of T.

*Determination of the CAG polymorphism of the AR gene is not recommended for routine practice, but in the near future, it can be used in particular for the selection of individual therapy for androgen deficiency.

Influence of CAG Repeat Polymorphism on the Targets of Testosterone Action

It should be finally acknowledged that the AR CAG repeat polymorphism plays a role in testosterone replacement therapy of males with hypogonadotropic gonadism since shorter AR gene CAG tract lengths was found to yield greater metabolic improvement in response to testosterone administration...

www.excelmale.com

Influence of CAG Repeat Polymorphism on the Targets of Testosterone Action (2015)

*at present AR CAG polymorphism is not recommended in the routine setting however in the near future it could become of clinical relevance because of the theoretical possibility of identifying subjects more or less at risk for various disorders more or less responsive to testosterone treatment

* study of CAG repeat length could allow us to individually tailor testosterone replacement therapy as subjects with shorter CAG repeat could need lower doses of testosterone while men with longer repeats could require higher ones




The CAG repeat polymorphism within the androgen receptor gene and maleness (2003)

Conclusion

The highly polymorphic nature of glutamine residues within the AR protein causes a subtle gradation of androgenicity among individuals. This modulation of androgen effects may be small but continuously present during a man’s lifetime, thus exerting effects that are measurable in many tissues as various degrees of androgenicity (Fig. 2). It remains to be elucidated whether these insights are important enough to become part of individually useful laboratory assessments. Nevertheless, in interaction with androgens, the CAG repeat polymorphism within the AR gene represents a relevant effector of maleness.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I consulted a psychiatrist who has been using high doses of t3 for years for patients who have unipolar depression and bipolar depression. Some patients need 100, up to 200 mcg, daily. Dr. Peter Whybrow, chief of psychiatry at UCLA has been researching and using high dose t4 in treatment resistant bipolar patients for decades.

Regarding testosterone we very well know it has positive effects on mood such as anxiety and depression (mild to moderate) but the jury is still out when it comes to MDD (major depressive disorder).




Symptom resolution, irrespective of dose, is valid.

True up to a point.....side-effects/blood markers!




The only study of supraphysiologic testosterone was dosed up to 600 mg, weekly, and though it was a small study, no ill effects were manifested.

What the one with 43 men.....oh I mean 40 men.....damn I meant the 21 men on testosterone!


Yes at 600 mg T/week for 10 weeks and unfortunately testosterone levels will be in flux during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) so how many weeks are the 21 men at steady-state!

Definitely not a full 10.

Regardless if you are concerned with using testosterone for the sole purpose of muscle enhancement then banging steroid doses 300-600 mg/week of T would make sense.

Anyone claiming to need such absurdly high doses to achieve a so-called healthy FT let alone overcome the thrown around term androgen resistance that is commonly spouted on the numerous forums littered on the internet is just Ludacris!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men (1996)​

Methods

We randomly assigned 43 normal men to one of four groups: placebo with no exercise, testosterone with no exercise, placebo plus exercise, and testosterone plus exercise. The men received injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate or placebo weekly for 10 weeks. The men in the exercise groups performed standardized weight-lifting exercises three times weekly. Before and after the treatment period, the fat-free mass was determined by underwater weighing, muscle size was measured by magnetic resonance imaging, and the strength of the arms and legs was assessed by bench-pressing and squatting exercises, respectively.




Methods

STUDY DESIGN

This study was approved by the institutional review boards of the Harbor–UCLA Research and Education Institute and the Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science. All the study subjects gave informed written consent. The subjects were normal men weighing 90 to 115 percent of their ideal body weights; they were 19 to 40 years of age and had experience with weight lifting. They were recruited through advertisements in local newspapers and community colleges. None had participated in competitive sports in the preceding 12 months. Men who had ever taken anabolic agents or recreational drugs or had had a psychiatric or behavioral disorder were excluded from the study.

Of 50 men who were recruited, 7 dropped out during the control period because of problems with scheduling or compliance. The remaining 43 men were randomly assigned to one of four groups: placebo with no exercise, testosterone with no exercise, placebo plus exercise, and testosterone plus exercise. The study was divided into a 4-week control period, a 10-week treatment period, and a 16-week recovery period. During the four-week control period, the men were asked not to lift any weights or engage in strenuous aerobic exercise.

Of the 43 men, 3 dropped out during the treatment phase: 1 because of problems with compliance, 1 because illicit-drug use was detected by routine drug screening, and 1 because of an automobile accident. Forty men completed the study: 10 in the placebo, no-exercise group; 10 in the testosterone, no-exercise group; 9 in the placebo-plus-exercise group; and 11 in the testosterone-plus-exercise group.




Treatment

The men received either 600 mg of testosterone enanthate in sesame oil or placebo intramuscularly each week for 10 weeks in the Clinical Research Center. This dose is six times higher than the dose usually given as replacement therapy in men with hypogonadism and is therefore supraphysiologic. Doses as high as 300 mg per week have been given to normal men for 16 to 24 weeks without major toxic effects.34


Notice that the dose used in the study is 6X higher than the average dose given (100 mg/week) to men on trt.

At least you have some short-term studies using doses in the 300 mg/week range for 16-24 weeks without major toxic effects......keyword being major!

You and I both very well know that if a majority of men were put on 300 mg T/week (lower-end supraphysiological) for trt that they would be struggling with sides let alone TT/FT levels would be through the roof.

TRT is long-term.




The take-home point!


Our results in no way justify the use of anabolic-androgenic steroids in sports, because, with extended use, such drugs have potentially serious adverse effects on the cardiovascular system, prostate, lipid metabolism, and insulin sensitivity. Moreover, the use of any performance-enhancing agent in sports raises serious ethical issues. Our findings do, however, raise the possibility that the short-term administration of androgens may have beneficial effects in immobilized patients, during space travel, and in patients with cancer-related cachexia, a disease caused by the human immunodeficiency virus, or other chronic wasting disorders

You're meticulous in siting research, as well as articulating your views. Even in medicine, though, we know there are gray areas, in addition to the unexplored areas. Our view is limited by what is currently known. And if there's some break through research that can be validated, it becomes a new ballgame. But, yes, we and our doctors can only utilize what is known. Going past that puts us in uncharted territory.