I’m seeing a lot more post with people who have test levels above 1000 who feel crappy. Even with everything else in range e2, DHT, prolactin etc. I’ve also have seen post of people almost using microdose amounts and feeling way better. My question is, is this the new thing? Because my doctor thinks higher the levels the better I should feel. I’m on 20mg a day. With 1 click of 200mg/ml of cream once daily applied to scrotum. And this was with my labs of test being 1500 and everything else being in range. But I just feel crappy as well- low libido and mood, fatigue, increased in belly fat even though I have a physical job and eat decently well while doing intermittent fasting.
Feel worse with higher test levels
- Thread starter Zooulie12
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I told my doctor I feel best on 400mg a week. We settled with 175mg a week. My last blood are way over normal high and I feel great. Dropped my amount down to 125mg a week to see what happens. I seem to feel great as long as my free testosterone is at high normal or higher.
Belekas
nobody
The million dollar question and only way to answer it is to experience it yourself. Some tolerate and function better at higher levels, some at lower levels and some somewhere in between. And some can't tolerate it at all. It's always not that easy as it sounds on paper. Easier till you get involved yourself and then see how deep the rabbit hole goes. Hope you find what works best for you and let us know. All the best!
It's not precisely about the numbers. Both your T and E levels need to be above a certain limit, and below a high end. Within that window you need to find the T/E ratio that works specifically for you. The window is pretty massive usually which is why guys like Gladiator will feel amazing almost no matter the dose, so long as their T/E ratio remains within a certain range.
The rule of thumb for t and e is E2 needs to be 10% of free testosterone.
That’s how it’s done in Australian with the labs we use.
If testosterone's only effect were promoting muscle growth then this doctor's more-is-better thinking wouldn't be quite as idiotic. However, testosterone has myriad functions and influences a lot of other hormones. The average healthy guy has total testosterone that maxes out at about 600-700 ng/dL. What might reasonably be expected if he goes on TRT later in life and pushes his testosterone up over 1,000 ng/dL? Any semblance of balance that testosterone has with other hormones is out the window. Why would anyone think this would feel better?
What exactly is a "microdose"? The physiological range of testosterone production is about 3-9 mg per day. This is equivalent to about 4-13 mg of testosterone cypionate per day. Personally I've tried doses in this entire range and find I do best close to the bottom. But 4-5 mg TC is still physiological, and thus should not be characterized as "micro".
Way too many of us have learned the hard way that excessive dosing is not better for overall health. A sample:
Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?
I’m a long term TRT patient, 39 years old. I’ve been on cypionate and inject a total of 154mg weekly in EOD subQ shots of 44mg each. I have been doing some thinking about the potential benefit of keeping dosing the same but experimenting with using a low cypionate base around 80-100mg weekly...
www.excelmale.com
For those who are struggling on TRT
As many of you know, I have struggled over the years ever feeling well on TRT. I’ve had doses all the way from 200 mg per week down to 60 mg per week. I have now been on TRT 13 years and can honestly say I’ve pretty much tried it all. I have contemplated, and even attempted quitting a few times...
www.excelmale.com
Numb Penis, Anorgasmia during Sex, Low Cortisol, High Prolactin on TRT
Have been on clinic TRT after AAS abuse as a 24 year old male for 3 years. My natural levels were 691 at age 24 prior to my reckless, careless decision to hope on anabolic steroids at 24. Since then I've tried to come off several times but always ended up inevitably relapsing when the pct or...
www.excelmale.com
TRT: Most Probable Weekly Dose Range for Treating Male Hypogonadism
I can’t really blame her. Most of what you read is of the mindset more is better. But here’s the approach I wish she would have taken, “Your test results reveal an 81 TT, let’s see what happens if we bring you up to 400.” Would have saved me those 8 years of countless blood donations, countless...
forums.t-nation.com
Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?
I’m a long term TRT patient, 39 years old. I’ve been on cypionate and inject a total of 154mg weekly in EOD subQ shots of 44mg each. I have been doing some thinking about the potential benefit of keeping dosing the same but experimenting with using a low cypionate base around 80-100mg weekly...
www.excelmale.com
Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?
Interesting anecdote. I’m curious what what your SHBG and current protocol are? @JoeMatts im curious for this as well
www.excelmale.com
Hello, 60yo starting TRT.
Hi All. I'm 60yo, lucky with relatively few health problems so far. Total T 350-400. After about a year of research/consideration, about to start TRT, plan is just Test C, 150mg per week separated into two subq injections/week into delts/VGs, draw/inject using 29G 1ml. Get labs in ~8 weeks...
www.excelmale.com
Have you ever DECREASED your dose?
Hey guys. I've only been on TRT for about 9 months. I'm on Test Cyp 100 mg Q3.5d with 350iU of HCG IM. I recently (this week) lowered my Anastrozole from 0.5 mg on injection days to 0.25mg to see how it will effect me (side effects, changes in libido, and also then lab values). ****I'm happy...
www.excelmale.com
Hello, 60yo starting TRT.
Hi All. I'm 60yo, lucky with relatively few health problems so far. Total T 350-400. After about a year of research/consideration, about to start TRT, plan is just Test C, 150mg per week separated into two subq injections/week into delts/VGs, draw/inject using 29G 1ml. Get labs in ~8 weeks...
www.excelmale.com
TRT patient feeling better after lowering my prescribed dose
Hey Guys, Hope all's well and Happy 4th! I'm looking for feedback. As a young male battling ED and low T, hopefully sharing my experience on what worked helps someone too. Almost 32 now and I use to have severe ED as long as I can remember, maybe late teens. No clue on cause. Maybe it's...
www.excelmale.com
Dose Change Side Effects
Hi guys, I just switched to a daily protocol of 24mg after spending a few weeks on 100mg E3D. This E3D protocol kicked the shit out of me, I dont think I respond well to having so much T at one time. The anxiety and thoughts were nightmarish plus the lethagy is real. Is there anything that...
www.excelmale.com
First labs after starting TRT - WOW!
My hematocrit was 0.55 with a normal range of 0.40 to 0.54. It is only slightly too high. My doctor didn't seem concerned about it. I'll post my full labs in the future. Very much appreciate your feedback. I'm also a bit confused how a dose of 120mg/week can have such a dramatic effect. It...
www.excelmale.com
Any guys on TRT long term and how is it? Newbie androgel but haven’t began
I was wondering if some guys who have been on TRT a long time can chime in. I’m 42 and working hard to keep my testosterone up. Lost one testicle and had chemo so it isn’t easy but I’m tired lots. I finally got it back up to 450 but I’m still tired. Anyway, I was just wondering because I read...
www.excelmale.com
When my levels are too high my mental and physical energy suffers, libido decreases, muscles grow, stomach protrudes, cognition decreases, and my mood is unstable. There are plenty of guys like me, yet there are plenty of men that do well jacking their TT and FT through the roof.
T
tareload
Guest
Thank you for taking the time and effort to put that post together.If testosterone's only effect were promoting muscle growth then this doctor's more-is-better thinking wouldn't be quite as idiotic. However, testosterone has myriad functions and influences a lot of other hormones. The average healthy guy has total testosterone that maxes out at about 600-700 ng/dL. What might reasonably be expected if he goes on TRT later in life and pushes his testosterone up over 1,000 ng/dL? Any semblance of balance that testosterone has with other hormones is out the window. Why would anyone think this would feel better?
What exactly is a "microdose"? The physiological range of testosterone production is about 3-9 mg per day. This is equivalent to about 4-13 mg of testosterone cypionate per day. Personally I've tried doses in this entire range and find I do best close to the bottom. But 4-5 mg TC is still physiological, and thus should not be characterized as "micro".
Way too many of us have learned the hard way that excessive dosing is not better for overall health. A sample:
Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?
I’m a long term TRT patient, 39 years old. I’ve been on cypionate and inject a total of 154mg weekly in EOD subQ shots of 44mg each. I have been doing some thinking about the potential benefit of keeping dosing the same but experimenting with using a low cypionate base around 80-100mg weekly...For those who are struggling on TRT
As many of you know, I have struggled over the years ever feeling well on TRT. I’ve had doses all the way from 200 mg per week down to 60 mg per week. I have now been on TRT 13 years and can honestly say I’ve pretty much tried it all. I have contemplated, and even attempted quitting a few times...Numb Penis, Anorgasmia during Sex, Low Cortisol, High Prolactin on TRT
Have been on clinic TRT after AAS abuse as a 24 year old male for 3 years. My natural levels were 691 at age 24 prior to my reckless, careless decision to hope on anabolic steroids at 24. Since then I've tried to come off several times but always ended up inevitably relapsing when the pct or...TRT: Most Probable Weekly Dose Range for Treating Male Hypogonadism
I can’t really blame her. Most of what you read is of the mindset more is better. But here’s the approach I wish she would have taken, “Your test results reveal an 81 TT, let’s see what happens if we bring you up to 400.” Would have saved me those 8 years of countless blood donations, countless...Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?
I’m a long term TRT patient, 39 years old. I’ve been on cypionate and inject a total of 154mg weekly in EOD subQ shots of 44mg each. I have been doing some thinking about the potential benefit of keeping dosing the same but experimenting with using a low cypionate base around 80-100mg weekly...Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?
Interesting anecdote. I’m curious what what your SHBG and current protocol are? @JoeMatts im curious for this as wellHello, 60yo starting TRT.
Hi All. I'm 60yo, lucky with relatively few health problems so far. Total T 350-400. After about a year of research/consideration, about to start TRT, plan is just Test C, 150mg per week separated into two subq injections/week into delts/VGs, draw/inject using 29G 1ml. Get labs in ~8 weeks...Have you ever DECREASED your dose?
Hey guys. I've only been on TRT for about 9 months. I'm on Test Cyp 100 mg Q3.5d with 350iU of HCG IM. I recently (this week) lowered my Anastrozole from 0.5 mg on injection days to 0.25mg to see how it will effect me (side effects, changes in libido, and also then lab values). ****I'm happy...Hello, 60yo starting TRT.
Hi All. I'm 60yo, lucky with relatively few health problems so far. Total T 350-400. After about a year of research/consideration, about to start TRT, plan is just Test C, 150mg per week separated into two subq injections/week into delts/VGs, draw/inject using 29G 1ml. Get labs in ~8 weeks...TRT patient feeling better after lowering my prescribed dose
Hey Guys, Hope all's well and Happy 4th! I'm looking for feedback. As a young male battling ED and low T, hopefully sharing my experience on what worked helps someone too. Almost 32 now and I use to have severe ED as long as I can remember, maybe late teens. No clue on cause. Maybe it's...Dose Change Side Effects
Hi guys, I just switched to a daily protocol of 24mg after spending a few weeks on 100mg E3D. This E3D protocol kicked the shit out of me, I dont think I respond well to having so much T at one time. The anxiety and thoughts were nightmarish plus the lethagy is real. Is there anything that...First labs after starting TRT - WOW!
My hematocrit was 0.55 with a normal range of 0.40 to 0.54. It is only slightly too high. My doctor didn't seem concerned about it. I'll post my full labs in the future. Very much appreciate your feedback. I'm also a bit confused how a dose of 120mg/week can have such a dramatic effect. It...
And yet way too often we see guys claiming they feel amazing on 500mg Test, or felt best back when they were blasting, or feel better at 300mg but settle for 175 so that their hematocrit doesn't climb. Way too often for them to be exceptions. How do you account for them?If testosterone's only effect were promoting muscle growth then this doctor's more-is-better thinking wouldn't be quite as idiotic. However, testosterone has myriad functions and influences a lot of other hormones. The average healthy guy has total testosterone that maxes out at about 600-700 ng/dL. What might reasonably be expected if he goes on TRT later in life and pushes his testosterone up over 1,000 ng/dL? Any semblance of balance that testosterone has with other hormones is out the window. Why would anyone think this would feel better?
What exactly is a "microdose"? The physiological range of testosterone production is about 3-9 mg per day. This is equivalent to about 4-13 mg of testosterone cypionate per day. Personally I've tried doses in this entire range and find I do best close to the bottom. But 4-5 mg TC is still physiological, and thus should not be characterized as "micro".
Way too many of us have learned the hard way that excessive dosing is not better for overall health. A sample:
Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?
I’m a long term TRT patient, 39 years old. I’ve been on cypionate and inject a total of 154mg weekly in EOD subQ shots of 44mg each. I have been doing some thinking about the potential benefit of keeping dosing the same but experimenting with using a low cypionate base around 80-100mg weekly...For those who are struggling on TRT
As many of you know, I have struggled over the years ever feeling well on TRT. I’ve had doses all the way from 200 mg per week down to 60 mg per week. I have now been on TRT 13 years and can honestly say I’ve pretty much tried it all. I have contemplated, and even attempted quitting a few times...Numb Penis, Anorgasmia during Sex, Low Cortisol, High Prolactin on TRT
Have been on clinic TRT after AAS abuse as a 24 year old male for 3 years. My natural levels were 691 at age 24 prior to my reckless, careless decision to hope on anabolic steroids at 24. Since then I've tried to come off several times but always ended up inevitably relapsing when the pct or...TRT: Most Probable Weekly Dose Range for Treating Male Hypogonadism
I can’t really blame her. Most of what you read is of the mindset more is better. But here’s the approach I wish she would have taken, “Your test results reveal an 81 TT, let’s see what happens if we bring you up to 400.” Would have saved me those 8 years of countless blood donations, countless...Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?
I’m a long term TRT patient, 39 years old. I’ve been on cypionate and inject a total of 154mg weekly in EOD subQ shots of 44mg each. I have been doing some thinking about the potential benefit of keeping dosing the same but experimenting with using a low cypionate base around 80-100mg weekly...Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?
Interesting anecdote. I’m curious what what your SHBG and current protocol are? @JoeMatts im curious for this as wellHello, 60yo starting TRT.
Hi All. I'm 60yo, lucky with relatively few health problems so far. Total T 350-400. After about a year of research/consideration, about to start TRT, plan is just Test C, 150mg per week separated into two subq injections/week into delts/VGs, draw/inject using 29G 1ml. Get labs in ~8 weeks...Have you ever DECREASED your dose?
Hey guys. I've only been on TRT for about 9 months. I'm on Test Cyp 100 mg Q3.5d with 350iU of HCG IM. I recently (this week) lowered my Anastrozole from 0.5 mg on injection days to 0.25mg to see how it will effect me (side effects, changes in libido, and also then lab values). ****I'm happy...Hello, 60yo starting TRT.
Hi All. I'm 60yo, lucky with relatively few health problems so far. Total T 350-400. After about a year of research/consideration, about to start TRT, plan is just Test C, 150mg per week separated into two subq injections/week into delts/VGs, draw/inject using 29G 1ml. Get labs in ~8 weeks...TRT patient feeling better after lowering my prescribed dose
Hey Guys, Hope all's well and Happy 4th! I'm looking for feedback. As a young male battling ED and low T, hopefully sharing my experience on what worked helps someone too. Almost 32 now and I use to have severe ED as long as I can remember, maybe late teens. No clue on cause. Maybe it's...Dose Change Side Effects
Hi guys, I just switched to a daily protocol of 24mg after spending a few weeks on 100mg E3D. This E3D protocol kicked the shit out of me, I dont think I respond well to having so much T at one time. The anxiety and thoughts were nightmarish plus the lethagy is real. Is there anything that...First labs after starting TRT - WOW!
My hematocrit was 0.55 with a normal range of 0.40 to 0.54. It is only slightly too high. My doctor didn't seem concerned about it. I'll post my full labs in the future. Very much appreciate your feedback. I'm also a bit confused how a dose of 120mg/week can have such a dramatic effect. It...Any guys on TRT long term and how is it? Newbie androgel but haven’t began
I was wondering if some guys who have been on TRT a long time can chime in. I’m 42 and working hard to keep my testosterone up. Lost one testicle and had chemo so it isn’t easy but I’m tired lots. I finally got it back up to 450 but I’m still tired. Anyway, I was just wondering because I read...
You account for them the same as you would any drug. Varying levels of drug tolerance will produce groupings of responses to the drug. There is a group of men that respond very well to very high levels (way over the range) of testosterone. There are men do well with moderately high levels (slightly over the range) of testosterone. Some men do well with moderate levels (mid-range), and some men have issues at any level and have to settle for near hypogonadal levels to minimize side effects.
T
tareload
Guest
I felt my best on some Vicodin and muscle relaxants after an injury. That was a couple days. Felt f'n fantastic! Felt Fine F'n Dandy as a smart dude once used to say.
How would I have felt after 3 months, 6 months, 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years on that protocol? A time horizon and objective function must always be defined. Very imprecise language being thrown around on this feelz discussion.
How would I have felt after 3 months, 6 months, 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years on that protocol? A time horizon and objective function must always be defined. Very imprecise language being thrown around on this feelz discussion.
Last edited by a moderator:
Your point is understood. Subjective response is, however, one of the more important variables in the context of TRT. Quantifiable measurements do not tell us how we feel. What good does it do a person to have perfect labs yet feel unwell?
My emphasis is on overall health. These doses have nothing to do with that. As @readalot suggests, feeling "amazing" in the short run isn't the same as feeling good for decades due to continued good health.
It's been suggested that if it takes supraphysiological testosterone to make a guy feel well then there's something else going on and he'd be well-advised to investigate it thoroughly.
Genetic variation cannot be the only answer. Yes it has a role in all this but it leaves too many questions unanswered, and probability deems it highly unlikely that outliers are so common and responses so different. In the end, we are more similar than we are different. We have the same HPTA, which produces and responds to the same substances, in a predictable manner, and which substances produce predictable effects across every human bar those with genetic insensitivity, who are extremely rare (documented cases you can count using your fingers). That's how we have any clue what we're doing with TRT in the first place, because cause and effect are generalisable with these medications and hormones. There is a precise and measurable reason why someone is a high or low responder, and we cannot chalk it up to medication response so easily in the first place. when we don't know that reason, we say "genetics". But we can't just say "genetics" whenever we reach a point that our current understanding fails to predict. It allows too wide a degree of variation in an otherwise too predictable system. Saying "I have no clue" is more accurate, and trying to improve our understanding so that it can predict that outcome as well is necessary if we are to know what we're doing eventually.
A good theory should be testable, coherent, economical, generalizable, explain known findings and be predictive of new ones. The more it explains and predicts the better it is.
Overall long term health is a separate effect from feeling at any given time. Detrimental long term health effects are usually not even felt until it's too late. Think chronic high BP, cholesterol, hematocrit etc. Whereas hormonal effects on mood, confidence, energy, libido are almost instantaneous and can be evaluated at any given moment. Clearly when people feel amazing on 500mg they are referring to the second part, which needs to be evaluated separately from the first.
What you are seeking is a precise and predictable answer, for which there is none. Genetic variations is a catch all phrase for responses to medications because it aptly explains at a high level why people respond differently; there is no alternative explanation that is more encompassing and valid. Longitudinal research can show us, on average, how people respond to a medication, but it will not necessarily show us a comprehensive list of underlying genetic variables at play producing the outcome, nor will it tell us how we will individually respond.
When considering mass data (enough people tested over long periods of time), this statement is true because results are averaged over and again until individual variation is essentially rooted out. This allows us, in research, to create normalized outcomes that we leverage to predict future outcomes. In medicine, mass data gives us the false impression that we will all respond within the norms of research findings. Individual variation is not the focus of most research, but rather the average response across groups of people.
This is an interesting point of view. Point me to 5 individuals who take the exact same TRT dose and experience the exact same subjective and objective responses. I’ll wait. There’s also 42,000 members of this forum, most of whom do not fall into the normal response group.
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Nonetheless, a guy cannot be said to have good health if his mood is poor most of the time, or he's lethargic most of the time, or his libido is poor most of the time. Each is suggestive of an underlying problem. Hormonal effects are not just instantaneous: Three months is considered a reasonable minimum time for evaluating a TRT protocol. Anecdotally, some of the effects of HPTA shutdown seem to manifest over months to years. How long would a guy continue to feel amazing on 500 mg TC per week? Presumably the blast-and-cruise concept exists because there usually are negative consequences to continuing high doses indefinitely.
I don't know where you read that this is my claim. It's not. I don't believe anything of the sort. But I can have an answer why any certain guy feels any certain way at any certain dose. One that includes individual variation but does not completely rely on it so carelessly as saying "oh it's genetics!" and one that can explain the 500mg guys and the 100mg guys with the same reasoning. And that, your logic cannot do.
I agree with everything you said here. The problem is what often happens and lacks explanation is guys blasting 500mg, feeling great in terms of the mood, lethargy and libido aspect which you described, and being sad they have to eventually come off due to the detrimental effects that dose produces on other markers.
" Instantaneous " is relative to the effects of chronic high BP, cholesterol, and the like, which most definitely will take years if not decades until they present actual pathology, of course also depending on the level of the abuse. But compared to that timescale, the few weeks it may take to begin experieincing hormonal effects is nigh instantaneous. Especially considering that most will feel at least some improvement on week 1. Hell I felt a significant surge of energy on day 1 and could achieve erections on day 2 after it being near impossible for months on end.
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Pray tell.
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